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AQ difficult to comprehend encyklopedia posts

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5/9/2010 13:35:10   
Hedning1390
Member

This is a problem in AQ that is a direct result of the sweep. Before the sweep all stats related to the item was posted in clear direct numbers. Nowadays the damage, sp cost, etc. is posted in long complicated formulas that may even span several different posts.

This for example from the winged lightning bolt entry:
quote:

The Power of the shield is [8*10.63*((4/3)*0.85)] to [34*10.63*((4/3)*0.85)], and the...

I understand that this relates to how the balancing team came up with those numbers, but to anyone not deeply involved in the sweep, and I would guess that is the vast, vast majority of all players, those numbers say nothing and only serve to make it more difficult to comprehend how good or bad the item is. If you insist of having those numbers, what about doing it like this:
quote:

The Power of the shield is 96.4 to 409.6*, and the .....
* [8*10.63*((4/3)*0.85)] to [34*10.63*((4/3)*0.85)]


A more extreme example of a very difficult to understand item is the Elite Dragon Slayer (and indeed all class armors)
First we have the U = 30 + 4*C and E = 30 + 4*S, which says nothing really if you are not interested in the reasoning behind those numbers. A variable that only depends on one other is totally meaningless from a mathematical perspective.

Then if we look at a skill, say Level 5: Poison Dragon you can thankfully get the sp cost and the major save stat from the appendix, which is the opposite from what you would expect (that is the formulas in the appendix and the hard numbers in the post). But to see what those numbers actually mean you will have to go to a totally different part of the encyclopedia (the monster part for some reason).

The save rolls are really awfully complicated to calculate using 6 variables (and if you attempt to print the entire formula out it will sometimes be as long as a short essay). I have no idea why they had to be this way but I guess that fact is nothing a forum can do anything about. They are what they are however the presentation of them still lacks greatly.

Moving on to get the damage you will first have to calculate the level using the formula, then go to yet another post (at least that is in the same topic you found the save roll in) and look there for the damage, again seeing a long complicated formula before the numbers you actually want.

Finally you have all the info needed to see what that one skill does. Now all you need to do is go check what the remaining 9 skills do. Then you can finally know if it is useful or not. And after some more research maybe even decide if the armor is better than one you already have.



My main point is: Make the numbers clear. That is why most people go to the encyclopedia: To find out if the item or skill is good to use.
Since there are a few people very interested in the sweep by all means, post the formulas and calculations, but as they are the background info and not the primary info hide the formulas in the appendixes and in the different forums and not the pure numbers.

< Message edited by Hedning1390 -- 5/9/2010 13:39:11 >
AQ AQW  Post #: 1
5/9/2010 14:16:46   
Lord Barrius
Member
 

 This is not a problem that is "a direct result of the Sweep", I'll thank you to remember that. The KoO have nothing, I repeat, nothing to do with how the Pedia is run. Nor is it the fault of game staff or any project they maintain how a forum-based encyclopedia presents information to the general public.

So if you have an issue with how the Pedia is presented, it would do you far more good to present the issue to the people who are actually responsible for maintaining and managing the AQ Encyclopedia, as they are the only ones capable of making those changes.

The problem actually tends to be that the Pedia people duplicate our design posts directly from our private forums. As a result, their info submission entries tend to be full of formulas because, surprise, we use formulas to derive the stats of equipment. They've also tended to accidentally copy inaccuracies, such as statuses we were considering adding or things like that. And that tends to lead to a lot of miscommunication and incorrect entries.

So I think more than anything else, it's an issue in the way the Pedia is presenting the information. Personally, I don't see a need for formulas to be expressly spelled out in Pedia posts, they exist primarily so that we know what we were doing when we look back at the code months or years in the future. They can, and probably should, be summarized in the Pedia for easier reading.

< Message edited by Lord Barrius -- 5/9/2010 14:17:41 >
Post #: 2
5/9/2010 14:20:10   
Chii
Legendary KoO Snugglebunny


 Actually, the game's always had some complicated formulas, just that they used to be simplified ahead of time before they were posted. Most of the formulas provided are intended for internal purposes and should just be available to those who want/need them, so if it were me, the information in the appendix would be the first thing that was visible and the appendix itself would be used for the formulas. Clear and concise information is the better option.

I'd just want it to be clear that the Sweep isn't responsible for the Encyclopedia getting overcomplicated. Video games have a ton of extremely complicated programming, but when's the last time you needed to know C++ to read a strategy guide? Would you tell the programmers of the game to simplify things, and not the strategy guide writers?
AQ  Post #: 3
5/9/2010 19:29:50   
Hedning1390
Member

quote:

So if you have an issue with how the Pedia is presented, it would do you far more good to present the issue to the people who are actually responsible for maintaining and managing the AQ Encyclopedia, as they are the only ones capable of making those changes.

Yes, my issue is only about how the entries are presented, hence I posted in Forum Suggestions and not in the sweep discussion thread or anything like that. I thought this was the correct place to post this but I'll PM the head AK or moderator if you think that is better. My only suggestion was to move the hard numbers into the posts and the formulas into the appendixes and into other posts (or remove them completely), as I am happy to see you both seem to agree with is better. I'm not exactly sure what you thought my suggestion was, but I am sorry if you managed to read something else into it.

When I said it is a result of the sweep I didn't mean that anyone else than the encyclopedia mods are responsible. I understand that the KoO have no control over how the pedia AKs post your numbers, but something happened that caused them to start posting those huge formulas, and it happened when the sweep started, so it is easy to conclude that in some way it is a result of the sweep.

< Message edited by Hedning1390 -- 5/9/2010 19:36:10 >
AQ AQW  Post #: 4
5/9/2010 20:03:19   
Lord Barrius
Member
 

 This is the proper place to post this, you're just not talking to the right people. You're essentially using this "the Pedia is complicated now" argument to complain about a game change, when it has nothing to do with a game change at all. As far as I can tell, this started well after the Sweep did. So it makes no sense to blame it.
Post #: 5
5/9/2010 21:08:58   
Everest
Moving Mountains


 Nor, I would add, is it important to assign blame in the first place. What you seem to be forgetting, Hedning, is the state of the Encyclopedia before the Knights began to allow the information on item stats to be passed to the Encyclopedia. Most special numbers were completely unknown unless the member personally bothered a member of the game staff each time an item was released.

As for your suggestion, I do wonder a bit why it would make a difference to switch the appendices to the first post and the formulae to the second. Both are usually included anyway; are you suggesting people don't bother to read down?
Post #: 6
5/9/2010 22:20:43   
Hedning1390
Member

quote:

You're essentially using this "the Pedia is complicated now" argument to complain about a game change

What??? I never wished to complain about any game change nor do I wish to blame the KoO for anything. This is a forum about the forums. Not the game. I would never attempt to try to post issues with the game in here (I think that is against the forum rules too). Also, what would be the point when there are plenty forums to post issues about the game? Surely I would have posted it there if that was my intent. You should note that my suggestions only included how to change the encyclopedia posts and not how to change the game.

My only issue is with the encyclopedia posts. And on that subject we seem to be in total agreement.
quote:

So I think more than anything else, it's an issue in the way the Pedia is presenting the information. Personally, I don't see a need for formulas to be expressly spelled out in Pedia posts, they exist primarily so that we know what we were doing when we look back at the code months or years in the future. They can, and probably should, be summarized in the Pedia for easier reading.

and
quote:

Most of the formulas provided are intended for internal purposes and should just be available to those who want/need them, so if it were me, the information in the appendix would be the first thing that was visible and the appendix itself would be used for the formulas. Clear and concise information is the better option.


That is exactly what I want and the only thing I ever intended to argue for.

Also don't you understand that a bad thing x can be a result of a good thing y (and other factors such as z) and at the same time x can not be blamed at y at all (but perhaps z)? Take this formula for example: x = z*y. It all depends on z if x is positive or negative. No matter how positive y is z can make it negative (=bad), but if y is 0 ie never happened then x would be 0 also.
I am not trying to blame either you or the sweep for anything. And frankly I don't see how you could think that if you read the post carefully, especially after my reply.

@Everest. My suggestion is/was to have clear and easy-to-grasp numbers in the first post, ie 96.4 instead of [8*10.63*((4/3)*0.85)] as in one of the examples I posted. The reason for this was to make the encyclopedia posts less difficult to comprehend (see topic). It is not just a problem of "reading down". If you actually look at my examples there is a lot of calculations and forum jumping involved.

< Message edited by Hedning1390 -- 5/9/2010 22:53:50 >
AQ AQW  Post #: 7
5/9/2010 23:02:19   
  Scakk
Beyond
quote:

My main point is: Make the numbers clear. That is why most people go to the encyclopedia: To find out if the item or skill is good to use.
Since there are a few people very interested in the sweep by all means, post the formulas and calculations, but as they are the background info and not the primary info hide the formulas in the appendixes and in the different forums and not the pure numbers.


The numbers in the Pedia post are there as they help those that like to how the numbers are gotten. Also as the numbers are not always a flat number the formulas are needed so people can figure out the numbers as they need them for their use.

As for hidding the formulas in the appendixes. What appendix would we hide said formulas? The forumla for one item will not work another item and so on and that would make wherever you are suggesting we "hide" them a very long thread/post which will make it even more confusing for those that wish to know the formulas. Also by "hidding" the formulas we would have people post as you asking to have them back in their respective post. I feel it is best to have the information in one location than have it spread in two spots when one will work fine.


As for examples as you mentioned in your first post I could maybe go through at a later date , got some other Pedia projects we are busy on at this time , and adjust as you showed. Others we could maybe do an appendix by level as is done in the Pet/Guest Section. Unfortunately some will need to be staying as they are to have the correct and most concise information in one location for all to see and make use of.
AQW  Post #: 8
5/9/2010 23:22:48   
Hedning1390
Member

quote:

What appendix would we hide said formulas?

The appendix you are now using to hide the calculated numbers. Usually it is at the end of the thread and in totally different forums.

In the case of the level 5 dragon slayer skill the damage of it isn't even in the post of the armor (only linked). Wouldn't you agree that that is perhaps the most important thing of the skill? Shouldn't it then be the first thing you see in the post?
If it is space you are worried about i don't think you have to. The appendix to the level 5 skill is only 3 lines. Add a line for the damage and you have 4 lines. Not going to make the post considerably longer, especially if you move the formulas down to the free space you now have in the appendix below. And now you have the benefit presenting the important info first and easy to see and understand.

Also these are only two examples. There is of course lots of items like this.


quote:

The numbers in the Pedia post are there as they help those that like to how the numbers are gotten.

I know, but as I said I believe most people are more interested in knowing how powerful the item is rather than knowing exactly how the numbers came to be, ie they are more interested in playing the game than dwelling in how it is created. Posting the formulas before the calculated numbers is like featuring the behind the scenes to the movie in theaters as the main attraction and then posting the movie itself on the home page for the hard core fans.

< Message edited by Hedning1390 -- 5/9/2010 23:31:59 >
AQ AQW  Post #: 9
5/9/2010 23:30:17   
Everest
Moving Mountains


 I did actually look at your examples, and you misunderstood my point. The largest formulas have a tendency to be part of a class armor, as you noted. Each class armor entry, as far as I know, has an appendix in a post below the first. I do think you have a point for the Lightning Bolt entries, as that value should be constant for each weapon. However, for more complex formulas, generally there are multiple variables.

So, an appendix is pretty much necessary to include in a post, on that we agree. I tend to think it's quite valuable for members to view the actual formulas; it encourages deeper understanding of the game and it's more exact. So I wouldn't be in favor of removing them from each entry. Though that may not have been the extent of your suggestion, and you instead simply advocate switching the appendices attached to the formula to the first post, and the formula to the second. Our point of contention, then, is where these appendices should be, and this is what I meant by reading down an item's thread.

I asked you a question for a specific reason, that is, because I was actually curious if you had a specific reason for advocating the switch of thread structure. If the easy-to-read information is included in the entry, and note the 'if' in that clause, does it really make a difference (in your opinion) where the information is? Again, I'm asking for an opinion, not to be argumentative. Because to me, it doesn't make a lot of difference.

Edit: Hidden in different forums? What? Appendices are generally included in the post below the first. Where are you getting this information about appendices in different forums?




< Message edited by Everest -- 5/9/2010 23:31:26 >
Post #: 10
5/9/2010 23:42:32   
Hedning1390
Member

@everest. Ok I'm sorry if I misunderstood you. I might have been a little upset after the post from LB.

My reason is that it feels backwards, and sometimes the calculated numbers aren't presented at all, only the formulas which makes the post really hard to read. As I said in my response to scakk I want to see how powerful the item is first. I am really not that interested in how it was created. I can't really do anything with the formulas. It is like posting concept art. It might be fun for those that find that really interesting but it shouldn't be on the front page so to speak.

quote:

Hidden in different forums? What? Appendices are generally included in the post below the first. Where are you getting this information about appendices in different forums?

In the case of the level 5 dragon slayer skill the damage is in another forum as well as half the formula for the save roll.

< Message edited by Hedning1390 -- 5/9/2010 23:48:59 >
AQ AQW  Post #: 11
5/9/2010 23:57:49   
Kalanyr
Legendary Sidhe of Order


 Personally, I think the actual formulas should be going in the appendix. The main entry should just consist of the outcomes in the most final form they can be, I'd even advocate going so far as to have specials in a Base/Random numerical layout instead of %, at Level X , in a table for things like class armors where X has different values. Perhaps every 10 levels for things that scale over 0-150, or similar. Essentially the player should have to do as little as possible to actually use this information.

However I do like having the formulas available for those who want them, but I don't think its necessary standard information, and it should probably be exiled to a Maths Appendix (ie a 2nd post in the thread).

ETA - I'd disagree with Hedning on the Level 5 skill. Since its a standard status effect, that should just be a link to the post on standard status effects, after presenting the relevant calculatable numbers, there's very little to be gained from duplicating the information and a reasonable amount to be lost (updating everything with a poison would kind of suck if we changed the poison effect, if poison was redetailed in every entry).

ETA2: The saving mechanic is not that complicated, its Level, Major Stat, Minor Stat, vs Level, Major Stat, Minor Stat. This is a pretty normal mechanic, its basically rolling a dice with a bonus against a target number.

In most cases at least 4 of those numbers should be more or less constant. Monster Level, Monster Major Stat and Minor Stat don't usually change in any given battle, so a monsters standard save Difficulty/Save Bonus could be put in a table at the end of the entry. Likewise Player Level is probably constant or capable of being put in a relatively simple table too, we don't usually give players things that scale on player level, they usually use Item Level which is constant. Often the item is completely constant and doesn't use Player stats at all and generally speaking the items with the most confusing formulas are these because you aren't intended to use the formula you're intended to use the final Difficulty produced, I don't expect you to care about what the virtual stats are, or how they are derived just the final Difficulty number, which has 0 variables.

< Message edited by Kalanyr -- 5/10/2010 0:17:59 >
AQ DF  Post #: 12
5/10/2010 0:08:35   
Hedning1390
Member

OK, I can sympathize with that. I didn't think of the update thing. Even if it isn't perfect from a user point of view I can agree that that perhaps would be asking too much in those cases. If the calculations are done it is just one click away. I can live with that.

< Message edited by Hedning1390 -- 5/10/2010 0:10:45 >
AQ AQW  Post #: 13
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