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Maybe the Debate Club needs some help?

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9/24/2010 19:30:08   
Abraska
Member

So I've been observing the Debate Club for some time and it looks like the forum has hit some writers' block. I'd help out the club but I don't I'd make a good DC member so I'll try with a suggestion. Just a simple suggestion that doesn't really put any stress on forum coders.

I suggest that the DC club takes topic suggestions from all forum users on a separate thread. DC members can then discuss topics they find interesting.

My understanding of the club is that it allows for discussion on dangerous topics by mature forum members. Thus, it is understandable that there is a strict filter for joining and gaining the privilege of posting there. However, I don't think you necessarily need to be called debatable to recognize a good topic.

The pros I can see to this is that all forum users can seek out interesting topics instead of just less than a hundred DC members. You're only short on ideas if you're the only one thinking. Also, this would make normal forum users more interested in the DC (assuming those that suggest topics are interested in said topics) and increase readership of a great forum. This might even have a snowball effect in that more readership promotes understanding of what is accepted in the forum and may result in more, better polished applications. Finally, ideas from outside the DC may completely blindside the members. I understand that the members often agree on topics they bring up so topics that take them by surprise may cause them to split and generate interesting discussion.

The cons to this is that many of the suggestions are... less than desirable. The thread might degenerate into spam. Though, as long as normal users are not actually discussing the topics they are suggesting, I don't really see it being a problem; spam can be deleted and the entire thread could be deleted if it doesn't create any good topics. Basically, and negative effects can be treated if my idea doesn't pan out.

I dunno, what do you guys think? Am I being presumptuous in trying to help out the DC? Is this suggestion complete bunk? Feel free to shoot me down. Oh, and sorry for going Socratic on you.

Have a good one.
AQW Epic  Post #: 1
9/25/2010 9:07:07   
CommanderHawke
Member

When i enter the OOC room the Debate club has hardly ever any new posts in it. to make the DC more 'alive' maybe make applying for it a tad easier? As only like 2 or 3 people from a entire page of applications actually are accepted.

_____________________________
DF AQW  Post #: 2
9/26/2010 5:27:46   
Earendl
Member

Not debatable myself, but a long time lurker. At the beginning Debate Club was an interesting area, housing more mature conversations over many interesting topics. Now? It's dead. It's not slowly dying, it's dead. Few active debatables are actively kicking a dead horse.

What I would like to see is a complete revamping of this "club", starting from the application process itself. Everybody would be accepted as a debater. Instead of excluding possible new members that would bring in fresh subjects, they'd be welcomed. Title "Debatable" would have to be earned, much like "Helpful" or "Friendly" by being active/productive/helpful member. Access to Debate board, as well as priviledge to the "Debatable" -title would be lost if you broke rules or fell inactive for extended period. If after this a member would like to reinstate their status as a debater/Debatable, they would have to go through application process and possible trainee period.

I understand that this would raise the amount of work for moderators of Debate Club, but perhaps the board in question could be revived this way.
AQ AQW  Post #: 3
9/26/2010 22:58:44   
Wyonna
Member

I've read over this a couple of times, and only see a few flaws. For one, more moderation would be required. That's one flaw. Though there are plenty of General Mod's hanging around. Secondly, this system could be easily abused. My point? This system could have inappropriate and "in-debatable" topics. Or would it go through approval?

I also support this idea, as I agree with you: The debate club is dead.
Post #: 4
9/26/2010 23:19:05   
Ashari
Inconceivable!


 I think I might have a solution that falls in between the current state and just opening it up to everyone (which would probably create a mess).

The Debate Club forum could be a reply only board (like the current state of the ED GD board). There could be a thread to request a Debate Topic (including your opening argument, so the mods knew you actually had something knowledgeable to say on the subject) where anyone could post a topic they wish to debate. The mods of the board can approve the topics they feel are appropriate and debatable. This opens up the Debate Club for anyone that feels they have something to debate, and the "Debatable!" title can remain a privilege (rather than a requirement) of posters in the Debate Club forum that show remarkable skill & activeness in debating.

This would cut down on the moderation needed, since people couldn't just start a topic on any subject that flew through their head, and it would open up the debate club since there wouldn't be an application process anymore. Instead, if you wished to start a debate you would post your debate subject and opening argument in a thread and if it's appropriate, a moderator can move your post into its own thread allowing further debate on the matter.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 5
9/27/2010 0:05:46   
Abraska
Member

@Ana: True, at least one AK would have to periodically look over the thread. However, I believe the DC members are more than capable of watching the thread for irresponsible posting. Thus, an AK or mod would not have to pick through the thread themselves and mostly respond to alerts from DC members when action is required. Well, that's just a thought and it could be a lot worse. However, like I said, the thread doesn't have to be permanent and can be closed down at staff discretion.

@Earendl, Ashari, and Jacob5: I believe the application process should stay as is. I like reading the DC forum more than others for a reason and I believe the application process is at least partly contributes to this reason. Sure, it takes time and moderation but it saves staff from having to stringently patrol the forum and giving out warnings after the fact. I ask, do you believe good debaters are being held back because of the application process? Even if they are, the ones who do make it through must make for great debates but more importantly, clean debates. The issue is that good topics may be being held back. Eliminating the application process would, in my opinion, do more harm than good.

@Ashari: I think your idea will actually require more moderation; staff would have to actively look out for troublesome replies as well as have to spend time approving threads. The DC members have shown they can start and conduct threads with little moderation which is probably due to the entrance procedures. Actually, I'm not completely condfident about this since you are right in that staff will not have to deal with an application process and so might have a net loss in moderation needed. Lastly, I cannot think up a topic that would both be fitting of the debate thread and appropriate for unproven users.

@Everyone: Our common ground is that the DC is less than lively and could use more topics. Otherwise, it seems we all have some differing ideas and I appreciate you all for posting them. Seems like we have some debating of our own to do.

I think this post is long enough. Let me know what you think. Have a good one.
AQW Epic  Post #: 6
9/27/2010 2:50:44   
CommanderHawke
Member

@Abraska

I personally would call myself a good debater even though spellig can catch me at at times. I have applied to DC twice and was Denied once and im waiting for respone now.
DF AQW  Post #: 7
9/27/2010 9:30:27   
Earendl
Member

@Abraska: You bring up good points, as well as Ashari. But I must ask, have you read a topic called Can The DC Survive? from the actual Debate Club board? Members of the debate club in that thread seem to agree that the lack of good topics is part of the problem, but even larger part to blame for DC's current state lies in the lack of members. Current members tend to agree no matter what topic is brought up for debate.

Actually, I must say that after reading through Ashari's post couple of times, her suggestion sounds like a good idea.
AQ AQW  Post #: 8
9/27/2010 9:48:56   
Lightning Bolt
Member

Personally I believe that the survival of the debate club lies in changing the application process. Currently the process involves submitting some sort of essay, while typical posts in the debate club itself generally consist of a paragraph of text rather than a page. That is in my opinion, the fault of the debate clubs application process. It tests people to an extreme level on entrance and the second that people are in the standard drops. I think the best way to get more people in would be to re-introduce the OOC Debate of the Week where anyone can participate in, and members who show themselves to be actively contributing to the debates to a high standard should be allowed in.
Post #: 9
9/27/2010 10:45:08   
Abraska
Member

@Earendl & Lightning Bolt: I did read that thread and it was what guided my suggestion. I did not get a strong impression that lack of members outweighed the lack of topics.
Ligthning Bolt:
quote:

From what has been said so far it would seem that most people think the debate club can survive, but only if there are more topics and people actively try to promote debate. In light of that I will, for at least the next 4 weeks, post a new topic every week. Please, for the sake of the debate club participate in the debates, and play the devils advocate once in a while and lets see if we can get things running.


You yourself Lightning Bolt at least partially agreed with this. Moreover, more members would mean an even greater need for topics. Only so much can be said about one topic. Thus, my thoughts are centered around increasing the topic to member ratio. Also, just because you do not need to write as much per post once in the DC does that mean one can write with a lower standard?

However, I do agree that the number of members is quite small and may also be contributing to the inactivity of the DC.

Sir Gnome:
quote:

Simply demonstrate that you are capable of thinking critically and expressing yourself in a manner that can be understood by others. This, in conjunction with your forum history, will determine entrance into the Debate Club.


It seems to me that the application process hinges more on clarity and quality of writing rather than the essay itself. You are both indeed correct that debates do not depend on essay writing skills but I think we can agree that it depends on fundamental writing skills. The essay seems to be there to facilitate this. I do not recall the essay even having any prototype and thus allows for great flexibility for all who wish to enter. Writing an essay, I would think, is child's play for a decent debater.

Also, the forum history component should also be considered. Since we do not know the forum history of others (I'm not even a very good judge of my own) we cannot assume they do not get in due to strict writing standards. It could be that many of those that applied, whether their writing skills were satisfactory or not, did not get in due to their track record.

I apologize but I cannot agree to lowering the standards of the DC. If the application process ever became more lenient, I cannot say my readership of the forum would increase.

Again, I thank you for your points of view as it can only help improve my own. Have a good one.

< Message edited by Abraska -- 9/27/2010 10:52:14 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 10
9/27/2010 11:50:47   
Earendl
Member

quote:

I apologize but I cannot agree to lowering the standards of the DC.


I wasn't asking lower standards, I was simply suggesting that wider range of members would bring in wider range of topics, as well as controversy which seems to be lacking. Topics as "Leet Haxxorrs, Do Y agree ur not?" wouldn't be accepted just like they wouldn't be accepted even now. And if a member would act in a way that is not suitable to DC he/she would be kicked out.

As an afterthought, you did apologize. I will apologize, too, but words that I quoted from your message convey a tad elitist attitude to me. DC still is just a part of forums, not a playground for straight A students.

< Message edited by Earendl -- 9/27/2010 11:53:13 >
AQ AQW  Post #: 11
9/27/2010 15:51:02   
Ashari
Inconceivable!


 Just to add to my suggestion, the big problem I see (and it was mentioned in the DC thread too) is the lack of controversy in topics. There are few, if any extremists in the Debatable group and most debates are short lived if everyone agrees on the same basic ideas.

You will not get more opposing viewpoints nor more idea if the DC club remains limited to the same 78 members that it currently has. The Creative Art forums saw a nice change now that it is open up to all people, and I feel that the debate club needs a similar change if it wants a revival.

As I see it now, the problem of inactivity is circular. Since there is so little activity on the DC board, no one is really motivated to spend time on an application since they will have little or nothing to debate upon if they are accepted. The system needs to change if anything is going to improve for the DC forum in the near future.

@Lightning Bolt: I agree that the Application process is what is keeping many people from even trying their hand at debate. I understand quality is important, but there is no quality when there is nothing to debate on. Maybe simplify the application process by having a trial period rather than an application (you would still have to ask for DC forum access, but an essay wouldn't be required; maybe just a shorter paragraph or even just a debate topic you want to discuss and your opinion on it). If a person creates problems, their DC access can just be revoked.

As for moderation, there will always be a greater need for moderation as more people join the forums and more forums are created as AE expands. If the concern that extra moderation is needed is so great, then closing the DC forums entirely would be the best solution (no mods needed at all!), but it's not. The way it is now, when you limit an entire sub-forum to 78 people, there won't be much to debate. The DC forum needs some fresh thoughts and opinions if you want activity to increase and the only way to make that happen is to open the forum up further in some way.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 12
9/27/2010 16:53:39   
Sir Gnome
Member

Just to note I'm aware of this thread, and am considering your suggestions; I really appreciate your ideas, and will be thinking them over while completing some work that needs to take priority. The one thing that I will underline at this point is that, while I also would like a (much) greater DC membership, the reason the group is as selective as it is at the moment is that topics are allowed in that board which have proved to be too volatile for the main OOC room in the past. The essay is not a perfect test of suitability for this, certainly, but its very rare that someone has to be ejected from the Debate Club.
I will endeavour to reply to the other individual points raised here at a later point (most likely after October 9th).
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 13
10/22/2010 11:06:50   
Wxo
Member

Speaking from a forum member whom isn't in the Debate Club, I don't find it too appealing to suggest topics I wouldn't be able to participate in myself. Why would anyone else? I wouldn't be too enthusiastic about creating a thread that I myself wouldn't be excluded from.

I think lowering the standards a bit would also help to solve that problem. I remember trying three times to get in before I completely lost interest. I already am overly confident that I was over qualified for it, though I was held out for very small reasons that had nothing to do with debating. (Just using it as an example that I'm sure happened on numerous occasions, not to complain.) Or, creating a Debate club for all members members to join actively while locking a section of it for the pro debaters to debate would be a better idea. I noticed the RP section of the forums follow this format and seem to run quite efficiently. It would also help mature some of the younger players that wish to debate. Alot of them don't know when to stop and admit when they are wrong or see an argument from both points of view. That may not be AE's objective as a whole, but I don't see why not do just that at the expense of benefiting from it by increasing the Debate clubs activity. It would also increase members because the debaters that just missed the requirement can openly practice in that section. I know I'd gladly join the newly acquired no requirement debates. Perhaps they can change the group Dabaters into one that doesn't include a title such as the Approved Artist group while making another that includes the title "Advanced Debater" for all of the original DC members and all the new members that make the cut for the exclusive debates. Again, the RP Forums successfully flourish and thrive under this system on these very forums.

My idea above may not be the best solution, but I believe it will be a better one. I acknowledge that there are consequences/cons to every good decision, but its important that the pros outweigh the cons. Your suggestion would probably benefit DC in a slight manner, but probably wouldn't be worth the trouble. However, this post is simply a prediction. If your idea is implemented, I wish it the best of luck.


AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 14
10/22/2010 11:40:00   
Vivi
Outsmarting Bugs


 The exclusivity of the Debate Club is not built around only allowing good debaters to participate. The idea behind the Debate Club is that it allows the discussion of topics that would be too volatile to be posted in the OOC, and therefore access is granted first and foremost upon the behavior that an applicant exhibits. The essay portion of the application is used to show that you can reasonably support an argument with evidence, which is important to participating in a debate but not the only thing you are reviewed for when your application is considered.

The OOC Room doesn't allow formal debates because they've had a tendency to get out of hand in the past when everybody can participate, but it's still a good place to get involved in discussions that don't require going through the DC's screening process.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 15
10/24/2010 14:01:00   
Jenchy x2
Banned

 

 To be quite honest,I never understood what the DC stood for because it's place in the AE forums wasn't introduced or shown to me.
Post #: 16
10/26/2010 1:56:12   
Earendl
Member

quote:

Speaking from a forum member whom isn't in the Debate Club, I don't find it too appealing to suggest topics I wouldn't be able to participate in myself. Why would anyone else? I wouldn't be too enthusiastic about creating a thread that I myself wouldn't be excluded from.



I agree. What's the point of proposing a topic thats interesting to me and then just keep reading through the thread, hoping that somebody would bring up the very points that I was thinking of? Perhaps I'm just selfish, but I don't see too many new topics rising if this were implemented. Why would I bother to create a message when it does absolutely nothing for me? I'd still be excluded, I wouldn't get my voice heard.
AQ AQW  Post #: 17
10/28/2010 16:41:26   
Dragonnightwolf
How We Roll Winner
Apr/Jun/Aug15


 The debate club, as I understand it. Is a discussion area of topics that are most likely above the pg rating system.
Some topics, for example have many points and clarifications and evidence to support them. But the counterarguement for that is this. There are ways to explain your point of view just as there are ways for the other party involved to supply counter-evidence to give some strength to what they say.

Debating topics, is simply a process of gathering knowledge and evidence to supply a viewpoint. What happens next is that usually the topic is then discussed at length until all resources have been exhausted. It isn't troubling per-say to have a debate reach an overall conclusion.
But if each member generally agrees with the final outcome as a whole, then I can't help but wonder why that is, and why it has come to such a conclusion as to be agreed upon by all involved.

AQW Epic  Post #: 18
11/1/2010 15:29:14   
Raiden Storm
Member

I used to participate in debate club when i was in primary school and i so miss those debates. It would be good to see more arguements presented.
I have a few suggestions that i think will help run things more smoothly and will help put some of the concerns i have noticed at ease.
When a person aplies to join the DC rather then refuse them let them know why it was refused and how they may improve for the
next time they decide to try again. Perhaps they did not argue the debate well or failed to show facts in their chosen arguement.

Whatever the case may be the only way one may improve is by constructive critism by others. In regards to the DC dying perhaps
you could create a new topic each week but the trick is to not just pluck topics out of thin air. Watch the different debaters forum interests
when it comes to topics. What sort of topic makes them seem more inclined to speak? Perhaps even create a list of possible topics and have
Debaters decide what interests them the most each week and have the chosen topic be discussed throughout the following week.

To create even more incentive for debaters to speak their mind perhaps, each week, Sir Gnome may crown one debater the most debatable for that week and even allow the winner
to be the one to chose the topic for the follwing week. There is still many wonderful and engaging topics out there that could be discussed and look forward to see
many quality debates in the future. : )

< Message edited by Castiel ArchAngel -- 11/1/2010 15:30:25 >
Post #: 19
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