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3/26/2012 15:02:33   
Rui..
Banned


would it be better if field medic worked in % rather than fixed values.

Example level 1 FM Restores 10% health and level 10 restores 100%

This may be advantageous to those with high health but it could be adjusted to agility.
Example if player has 95 health the max heal would be 100%
if player has 200 it would restore 50% at level 10. This is just an example the actual numbers can be set by the development team.

What do you say is this idea better or is the current field medic better.
Post #: 1
3/26/2012 15:24:57   
JariTheMighty
Member

With extreme HP and high reroute (plus hybrid armor) it would have the potential to be looped, and looping rarely does any good to balance. Builds having 200+ HP may not seem like a balance problem now, but if this were to be implemented and the game keeps developing (higher level cap & more stat points to spend), I could see this becoming a problem eventually.
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 2
3/26/2012 15:33:45   
Ranloth
Banned


That would be quite an overkill. e.e
I do recall very high Support builds with max FM being able to heal a lot of HP, maybe 80s range or nearing 90. That's old FM which was OP'ed, or rather the bonus that Support added to it.
Besides it could be easily aboused, see Jari, and to be honest even possible early on in the game. Your HP will make up for the defence, offence will kinda suck but you can re-heal and be back to the original state. That's why, for one reason, I quite don't like %-based skills as they end up too strong in some cases and in some, even too weak. Also as Jari said, it will cause problems in the future when Agility might get moved up (stat points), and HP would be definitely higher so FM based on %s would be too strong.

Although making FM work with Support again, although something like +1 HP per 7-8 Support would be good. Not big of a difference but Support builds look at at least +10 more HP per heal which can make big difference. \o/

@below
I am on topic.. I might've mentioned above sentence but it's still about Field Medic, and it could work as an alternative + bring FM back to its former glory, somewhat.


< Message edited by Trans -- 3/26/2012 15:56:17 >
AQ Epic  Post #: 3
3/26/2012 15:49:53   
Rui..
Banned


trans dont mix up ideas lets stay focused to this topic.

jari let me give you an example to help you understand what i had in mind.
I usually have 95 health with level 4 heal which does 41 heal. With the 40% heal change it would make no difference. But if i were to make my heal max i would get 60 heal with the change it would be 95. But a max heal would mess up the rest of my skills and lower my damage.

With players over 200 health this feature is useless for them cause they will only get 50% effenciency from this skill due to the agility factor.

The only reason i thought of this is the advantage on jugg fights. This is the only place this skill will shine. I am sure anyone who has been hit with 2 bunk buster crit will understand. Moreover with the new merc skill juggin has become a bit hard.

The developers need to start jugging to actually understand player difficulty. Juggers need some new skills to even the odds and i feel this will help. If not think of some changes and lets discuss
Post #: 4
3/26/2012 15:54:28   
Stabilis
Member

What about Reroute + Field Medic + absolute health (150+)?
AQ Epic  Post #: 5
3/26/2012 16:03:14   
JariTheMighty
Member

Rui: Max reroute (30%), 250 hp, maxed Field Medic. According to the information you gave us it Field Medic would heal 50% at the highest agility level.

50% of 250hp is 125hp.

Maxed Field Medic costs 35 energy to use.

Max reroute (30%) will give 38 energy back from 125 hp.

Basically that's infinite looping right there. Giving 35 energy and getting 38 energy back.

Infite looping WILL bring balance problems. It's been witnessed already with the support TLMs back in the day where they were able to heal +60 health with just 17 energy used.
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 6
3/26/2012 16:10:47   
Rui..
Banned


i said 50 is just an example its up to the developers to fix the number.
Secondly if someone had 250 health i guess they wont be having any items on them other than the starter items. And even if it was possible to equip beta items with max enchant you would end up with 50 energy. Now what are you going to do lol strike your enemy to death ? Or take in 45 minimum damage a hit from us. If you use any skill your re route heal is done.

You can do the math.
Post #: 7
3/26/2012 16:11:02   
Calogero
Member

Juggers don't need to get stuff to even the odds...

Juggernaut is a Challenge Mode, if you want easier wins, try 1v1 or maybe 2v2 if you are lucky.
I see people on the board daily with +80% So I 'd say the Juggernaut is good, maybe even to easy
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 8
3/26/2012 16:14:35   
Ranloth
Banned


With my equipment, I could get to 200 HP easily if I lower some other skills. That's with restrictions and one of the best weapons in-game, I cannot see Starter weapons here. Besides you'd need good items with low requirements and it's even easier as mine are between 30-34 which isn't bad but on all stats so you could get different item, get rid of one stat and raise HP even further.
AQ Epic  Post #: 9
3/26/2012 16:22:20   
Rui..
Banned


trans 250 health is the reloop trick .
If you had 200 health you would have base energy, one emp op atom your done. Moreover i would rage faster get crit block and would do 40 damage on you with your 34 level hear while you do 10 odd damage. Be practical.
Post #: 10
3/26/2012 16:23:03   
Basicball
Member

do you realise that your 'new skill' contradicts itself?

in the beginning, the more hp you have, the more you heal. then, if you get more hp, you heal less.

as a result, everyone will be stuck at a certain amount of health, to get the same, most effecient heal.

_____________________________

AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 11
3/26/2012 16:24:11   
Ranloth
Banned


You'd rage faster? If I had poor defences, Rage would take much longer to build up. If I had good defences, true that but HP makes up for it and even if EMP'd, I could get it back as BHs could not EMP forever, just CHs.

Don't look at a tree, look at the whole forest.
AQ Epic  Post #: 12
3/26/2012 16:36:18   
Stabilis
Member

quote:

Don't look at a tree, look at the whole forest.


Dang, that is a crazy expression, I want to make that in my next signature :P.
AQ Epic  Post #: 13
3/26/2012 16:56:15   
Rayman
Banned


quote:

Dont look at the tree look at the whole forest

Lol i saw that on a naruto shippuden episode e.e

I dnt like this idea but it can work if u low the %
AQW Epic  Post #: 14
3/26/2012 16:57:09   
Ranloth
Banned


@raymanpwner
Indeed, that's where the quote is from and some of it can be actually used (when quoting of course). xD
AQ Epic  Post #: 15
3/26/2012 17:52:42   
Cyberbeast10
Member

I believe that a FM that works with % might have been a good solution earlier in the game; but things are quite alright with level scaling FM as it is a basic skill for every player.

The problem with a % FM is that high HP players will rise and create a heal loop. While you may argue they will have little in every other stat, you have to take in consideration what armors they'll use and what stats they will partially invest in to improve their own effectiveness. Also, think about things like Tank builds.

At 95 HP, FM will still be at 100% Heal. Any player can create a tank build now, and tank it out with their opponent; after much effort, the tank will fully heal rendering the opponent's efforts futile. The only builds that will counter them are STR builds if they can dish out enough damage. And builds that can't? Exactly, its like having to try and defeat your opponent twice. Having a 100% Heal is almost the equivalent of doubling your HP amount. So at 95 HP times 2 = 190 HP. You think you'll defeat someone with that amount of HP while they are still as strong as you?

And...Let's not forget...BLOODLUST. Yeah, some classes already have a passive Heal to increase their own survivability! While they heal slowly, they can recharge that FM back so they can heal HP back to max. You don't need all-HP builds to see where this imbalance goes. Invest HP to 95, invest points necessary to max FM, then invest on either Bloodlust and STR or Tanking to ensure you'll survive long enough for the cooldown to wear down. Not to mention they'll have spare enough points to be able to use adequate equipment!

I like the idea, but giving too much % make BaS builds stronger while having too little makes it obsolete. In fact, after all it was seen that support builds were OP because they could heal tremendously with FM and even then, that wasn't always a COMPLETE heal. In the current way FM works; if you have little HP; you're heal is strong, while if you invest too much in HP; it will "weaken" FM.
AQW Epic  Post #: 16
3/27/2012 12:26:27   
Remorse
Member

I Have an idea,


How about they make feild medic increase with support agian. BUT also field medic is reduced by the total amount of hp.


Therefore to get the best feild medic you would need low max hp and high support, This means it wont be abused as much by high support builds with high hp as high hp makes the feild medic weaker.


A possible way would be to use agiliaty aka, each time you increase agailty you take away 10 Hp from feild medic heals.

This means support can have purpose,

But healing cant be abused.



< Message edited by Remorse -- 3/27/2012 12:27:39 >
Epic  Post #: 17
3/27/2012 13:22:02   
Stabilis
Member

^

I believe that no skills should improve with stats...

HOWEVER. Field Medic is an exception, because all players have Field Medic and Support... regardless of how weak it is.

I know Field Medic was a problem in the past, but at the same time multiple synergy issues were not addressed. I think buff skills that improve the character and Field Medic should be the only skills to improve via stats (but specifically Support). Support can be balanced in that it's damage capabilities can be reduced, and so to it's luck as well... and make Support actually what Support is... an aid stat.
AQ Epic  Post #: 18
3/27/2012 15:03:11   
Ranloth
Banned


In game where no skills improve with stats, means that power builds rule. I can't even imagine how much creativity and fun would be killed by that.. Level-scaled most likely, and go with Str all the way - Gun and Primary, same skill damage as everyone, where's the problem?
What makes builds different is variation in stats - if you go with Tank build, your skills that use Dex and Tech will improve so you can adjust your stats to skills and get most out of them. If that was changed - battles would be pre-set, 1st turn advantage would be much bigger, one build would rule; one with highest damage output via weapons.

What you're suggesting is re-writing the game from scratch. I mean you have to re-balance every single skill in game, change how stats work, test it all, bugs that will pop up, balance the stats, new code. It's impossible task, with amount of time releases eat already and current Team, you're looking at 'few years later' period at least + a lot more space on the server to have new releases being tested & for new skills. It's an impossible task to re-write the whole game, remember that probably weapons would need adjustments as well to their stats as they could end up weak perhaps.
You will find your advantages which some people will agree to, but you're killing every single build in ED, as well as whole creativity that exists.
AQ Epic  Post #: 19
3/27/2012 16:11:11   
Stabilis
Member

quote:

In game where no skills improve with stats, means that power builds rule.


We have a game where skills are improving with stats, and power builds are ruling. This includes power via weapons, and power via skills. These skills sometimes even use weapons, but also these are skills improved by stats. Where does the principle amount of damage from a Dexterity type Cyber Hunter come from? From my observations it would be Multi-shot. And where does the principle amount of damage from a Support type Tactical Mercenary come from? Namely the Auxiliary, but in between cooldown, Artillery Strike. Where does the principle amount of damage from a Strength type Blood Mage come from? From weapons, the Primary, and deadly aimed Sidearm, but significantly from Fireball, including but less often is Berserker.

quote:

I can't even imagine how much creativity and fun would be killed by that.


Numerous builds of the Mercenary, Blood Mage, and Bounty Hunter already have limited energy, and use weapons for the majority of their fight. In reducing the power of attack skills, we can scale every skill by character level and technically give fixed damage. This would be determined by largely the level of the skill. And due to the drop in power of attack skills, skill points will be taken more cautiously, but I also agree that the game could use more skills/skill points in total. The creativity of EpicDuel is thanks to designing stats and skill the way you would have preferred to, not so much by who can add the most damage into a commonly used skill, I find that uncreative. You see, when stats improve skills, what reason is there for players to balance their stats... when damage can be pooled into 1... 2... or sometimes 3 different forms of output? This mutuality between 2 very fundamental game pillars is what is buckling the building to implode on itself. In the future, when level caps rise, the change in this process will noticeably be that skill damage is going to be exploited even more with more stats! And people will blame classes, groups of people as a whole in bias! Pah! If anything, I see statless skills being the saviour of overpowered and tasteless builds exploited by many many people in EpicDuel for... fast wins... preposterous.

quote:

Level-scaled most likely, and go with Str all the way - Gun and Primary, same skill damage as everyone, where's the problem?
What makes builds different is variation in stats - if you go with Tank build, your skills that use Dex and Tech will improve so you can adjust your stats to skills and get most out of them. If that was changed - battles would be pre-set, 1st turn advantage would be much bigger, one build would rule; one with highest damage output via weapons.


Level-scaled indeed. You make a good point, a form of creativity to further break down the player-base is when skills are equal in power, stats tell the difference. However this is one of my points, because of something like enhancements or requirements, players are able to overkill their opponents in skill damage such as Fireball, which is a very good stigma for players to exploit Strength and Bloodlust... as much as they can!

Battles would be preset you say? I say nay, creativity is also formed when skill points are allocated. This is usually more profound than needing stats. Which is more effective: level 10 Reroute with 43 Technology, or level 1 Reroute with 430 Technology? The placement of skill points is a very important matter of determining overall usefulness as opposed to stats which do both to statistics and usefulness without skill points... which kills balance! Look at how Support Tactical Mercenary overkilled every person with a level 1 Field Medic... today they would only be able restore 30 whereas they have used to restore 60! Is this not a sign?! Is this concept of skills separated from stats not doing wonders for balance?! When I see a Blood Mage with a maxed Bloodlust hitting 40-50 per turn and winning while only using Strength, I see a balance problem.

quote:

What you're suggesting is re-writing the game from scratch. I mean you have to re-balance every single skill in game, change how stats work


Not so! In fact although this concept is a core feature of EpicDuel, it is still a feature. Look at it this way in changing skills: a skill uses a class template (talking about computer coding)... one of it's methods controls energy regain, requirements, improvements... etcetera. It is much easier to delete logic than it is to create new logic. What you would need to do is reconcile your code, about everything that feature affects. Write a list (not a programming list) about everything effected thing you can mention. Remove improvements from the core class attributes, followed by editing out every mentioned instance of stats improvements in every other skill object. This can be done very quickly using a "find and replace/remove" function in the shell of the programming interface. I would estimate the time needed would be less than an hour if Titan managed to condensed his created skills using the minimal space possible... in other words k.i.s.s'd it.

quote:

test it all, bugs that will pop up, balance the stats, new code. It's impossible task, with amount of time releases eat already and current Team, you're looking at 'few years later' period at least


Testing, yes, we have older and younger humanoids who try to work out every single angle of a balance/feature change. With the current speed at which EpicDuel runs (plus frame rate), you may be looking at a 10-30 minute testing... since you would really need to test every skill again, with some exceptions. After the testing run there may be some bugs, but definitely fewer than opposed to adding logic, which is more risky than often, as existing code is promised to be stable while newer coding is unpredictable.

quote:

+ a lot more space on the server to have new releases being tested & for new skills.


More server space? This being a new release?? New skills??? Old skills. Old school.

quote:

It's an impossible task to re-write the whole game, remember that probably weapons would need adjustments as well to their stats as they could end up weak perhaps.


But you are not rewriting the whole game! That would take weeks! You are "changing" a key feature in PvP balance which affects most skills and no stats. Weapons ending up weak you say? How would that be so? Hmm... if in changing and in the end result that skills separate from stats, I do not see how weapons get affected unfortunately if they do not manipulate skills with the exception of attack skills transmitting damage through a Primary weapon. <- But if you want to point this out, even weapon skills can be edited to fixed damage and by character level

quote:

You will find your advantages which some people will agree to, but you're killing every single build in ED, as well as whole creativity that exists.


To finish my timely response, sorry Trans, but I disagree strongly.
AQ Epic  Post #: 20
3/27/2012 16:22:30   
Ranloth
Banned


I'll just say few quick points without walls of text.
- If testing is maybe 10-30 mins according to you, why does it take hours to test weekly releases?
- Using old code you say? Old code doesn't work with new code, that's why releases might usually require new code to make it work with new release. If X works with Y but Z makes it unable to work, then you must re-do X and Y to work with Z. Simple as.
- Taking bits out from code and changing few things - if it was as simple as you say it is, would let's say, Adrenaline require as much time to code and test? There is a balance line, it requires formulae which defines balance, and each skill has its own formulae to make it work over X level span and not be OP'ed. It's not as simple as you say.

Sorry but it's not as easy as you say. If it was such a case, releases would take much quicker to make rather than Titan and the Team working on it whole week.
AQ Epic  Post #: 21
3/27/2012 16:42:49   
ScarletReaper
Member

I've said ever since they nerfed fieldmedic that they should change it back. If they did then guess what.....Mercs and tacmercs would be able to compete with cybers and bloodmages. It would be a lot more balanced than it is now. I am a cyberhunter and I would welcome the challenge. Easy wins get boring after a while. :p
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 22
3/27/2012 16:51:09   
Practel
Spectating from the Sidelines


This type of topic should be in the balance discussion thread, as it involves stats and classes.

I'd like to add that what basicball said is correct, the skill your suggesting is contradicting itself.

~Practel
DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 23
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