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4/4/2012 18:55:35   
Shadronica
Member

Level 1 you only have 3 lower level skills in the skill tree. Field medic, a passive and a low level damage.
Level 10 you get another 3 skills introduced to your skill tree.
Level 20 another 3.
Level 30 another 3.
Level 40 another 3.

Since the stats on our weapons, armor and enhancements have caused a bloating of stats, we need an outlet to control not only build/class abuse but will help ED in the future.

How about an energy outlet?

Make the cost of energy in our skill tree much higher. Firstly rearrange the skill tree as mentioned above with low level skills on the first tier and make the high damage skills at the bottom tier that cost a lot of energy to use.

Outcome ...
1. More balance for lower levels. No maxed out strong damage skills.
2. Allows us to easily move forward into the future.
3. Adjusts stat abuse.
4. Still allows creativity.

Examples: You will have people who want to tank their base stats (strength, dex, resist and support) but they will not be able to have enough points left to buy enough energy to use some of the higher damage upgraded skills.
You will have people that have medium base stats that can afford the energy to buy more skills.
Or you will have people with weak base stats that invest more into energy to use higher damage skills.

This idea would also eliminate the need to change whole skills because they are UP or OP. The dev's can always adjust how much energy it will cost a class to use certain problematic skills.

What do you guys think of this idea?



< Message edited by Shadronica -- 4/4/2012 19:02:27 >
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 1
4/4/2012 19:10:09   
Wootz
Member

I do not agree.
Its too conservative (if I typed this correctly),
I mean, if this game has a crap load of skills like World of Warcraft, Runes of Magic, Perfect World etc. it would be okay, but since we only got like 12 skills per classes it blows.

How could it provide balance to lower levels?
You'd basicly just see Bounty Hunters with Smoke Screen and Cheap Shot at level 6, Mercenaries with Hybrid armor maxed, Tech Mages with Plasma Bolt. It would encourage abuse through lower levels as it couldn't provide that many choises.

How can it allow to easily move forward. Please explain this.

It encourages stat abuse, especially Technology for Mages, Dexterity and Strenght at Hunters and Mercenaries.

How the hell do you think that it can allow creativity if you have to spend 10 points into only one row of skills? And that row consist of three skills which do not even mean a lot. Its basicly like you are trying to make a dictation.

AQW Epic  Post #: 2
4/4/2012 19:35:31   
Shadronica
Member

Oh I forgot to mention ... if you want to post can you please do me the courtesy of reading my opening post.

Wootz you won't get stat abuse because a lot of your stats will have to be put into energy to obtain the stronger damage skills in your tree.

< Message edited by Shadronica -- 4/4/2012 21:40:04 >
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 3
4/4/2012 21:42:30   
DeathGuard
Member

Sorry but I'm not interested in this, lets calculate that we only get 4 stats when we lvl up so if you're talking about high damage, I think it would be somewhere around 50-60 mana if a skill is maxed, and that means some stats on energy but we must also allocate stats on hp, on our defenses, sometimes in str/sup so meaning it would have to be an almost or close kill skill.
A one hit skill to say so, if you get your energy emp'ed or drained, you will be somewhat at disadvantage, not to say str or sup users would be at advantage since they will rely on primaries and guns/auxiliary, and since they barely use energy, they will be good with it. I'm not saying it won't work but it will require a lot of testing.

quote:

This idea would also eliminate the need to change whole skills because they are UP or OP. The dev's can always adjust how much energy it will cost a class to use certain problematic skills.
You're wrong there ma'am, because of this e.g. A new skill called Tyranny can hit more than 67 damage at maxed, but requires a few energy of 33. Lets say other class has a skill Reaver Soul that deals only 45 damage but it requires 33 energy. The best option would be to nerf
tyranny skill not to make its energy costs go up, making the energy costs higher would be a severe nerf to it. That is where your sole idea comes to the ground, you should just delete it from your post or tweak it in a fair way

< Message edited by DeathGuard -- 4/4/2012 21:43:40 >
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 4
4/4/2012 21:47:58   
Shadronica
Member

I am not single minded about the idea DeathGuard that is why I put it out there to be discussed as a possible suggestion to put forward. However, I do see that it has good potential to overcome the problem of the bloated stats that currently allow people to stat abuse along with maxing out a lethal skill or two or three. At level 34 there is no way that anyone should be able to achieve that.

And yes the team would need to be mindful about the skill tree so that the skills with less damage are put in an early tier of the skill tree and the most damaging skills are in the latter part of the skill tree. The skill tree would need to be rearranged.



< Message edited by Shadronica -- 4/4/2012 21:58:29 >
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 5
4/4/2012 21:55:47   
DeathGuard
Member

quote:

At level 34 there is no way that anyone should be able to achieve that.
Could you say me what they can't achieve?

If you say damage of 67, it is possible but if you say about the 50-60 energy required for a weapon, I said it in a futuristic way, in higher lvls.
I do know you're not single minded but looking forward suggestions to your idea, but they're some parts of this idea that needs too be tweaked really hard, some others have such great potentials to overcome some big problems in ED. I hope everyone take their time, read carefully your idea, think of it being in-game and giving a suggestion to make it the best fitting.

EDIT: Ignore my first question, you editted your post and gave me the answer to it.

quote:

And yes the team would need to be mindful about the skill tree so that the skills with less damage are put in an early tier of the skill tree and the most damaging skills are in the latter part of the skill tree. The skill tree would need to be rearranged.
This sounds real interesting, I would like to see such idea to develop, that would be really fun to have in-game. Though they will have to be careful when doing low and high damage skills. IT would be better if they did only high lvl damage skills to unlock when lvling up, also new debuffs, stun kills and healing skills. I think they could go really creative when doing new types of skills.

< Message edited by DeathGuard -- 4/4/2012 22:09:34 >
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 6
4/4/2012 22:12:03   
ND Mallet
Legendary AK!!!


 As been stated, increasing energy costs will limit builds greatly. Few builds ever have 100+ energy and are actually good. The exceptions to this would be Beta Build Mages who can abuse the stats on Beta to get high health, energy, tech and dex. What this would do though is give a huge buff to energy drain skills since it will pretty much cripple an entire build aside from Strength builds. As it is now, my strength build only uses the energy for a Malfunction. Many other strength builds can be modified to use little amounts of energy to avoid being eaten alive by energy drains.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 7
4/4/2012 22:33:53   
Shadronica
Member

I don't see that this will limit builds greatly. It will however force us to rethink where we are going to place stats and skills. In actual fact we should see some unique builds transform.

ND Mallet Guy yes Beta Build Mages may benefit a little but not if they are forced to put a lot of stats into energy to utilise plasma bolt, supercharge or rain as they would be considered mid to high levels (damage) skills. Also they would risk energy drain. ;) Not forgetting that a high level damage skill would be most difficult to max out without making your base stats very weak due to having to place so much on energy.

< Message edited by Shadronica -- 4/4/2012 22:37:19 >
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 8
4/4/2012 22:48:55   
DeathGuard
Member

ND Mallet Guy, I can also abuse tech and dex without almost no requirements, with Frost Destroyer, Carrotic Blaster, Tesla Armor and Carrotic Collider that is a piece of cake, I can have 19 base strength and abuse to have 120 hp, 98 energy, 22-27+9 def, 30-36 res, but lets take in mind my gun and aux is not enhanced, but if I enhanced 4 slots on each, I will have plus 8 stats which I can allocate in whichever stat I'd like, you only need the proper items to abuse such stats

< Message edited by DeathGuard -- 4/4/2012 22:50:34 >
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 9
4/5/2012 1:21:13   
ND Mallet
Legendary AK!!!


 Think of requirements for a minute. Do they solve balance issues? No, they are made to lower the effectiveness of lower leveled builds. Adding more energy cost to a skill is the same thing basically. You're just reducing the effectiveness for a period of time while the problem still exists and can come back at higher levels.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 10
4/5/2012 1:45:55   
Shadronica
Member

ND Mallet if people were not able to max out high damage skills then we would not be seeing all the rubbish we have to look at daily.

If we look into the future at the next tier of skills that were introduced at level 40 although some people might be able to max out the high damage level 30+ skills what is to say the next tier of level 40 skills had the ability to counteract a high damage attack in a different way to what we have already seen. Perhaps at level 40 we were given dispel skills so that when your opponent tries to use any of the skills in his skill tree it fizzles and they lose their energy that they would have used. That is purely a hypothetical scenario but it would be effective would it not?

There is endless scenarios that are at our fingertips but we cannot afford to sit on our hands watching OP classes/builds constantly ruling the roost.

Now please excuse me while I go make one of the OP Tech mage builds that everyone is talking about. :P hehe



< Message edited by Shadronica -- 4/5/2012 2:03:06 >
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 11
4/5/2012 1:58:11   
ND Mallet
Legendary AK!!!


 You're assuming people will still use the same builds and therefore will have to sacrifice stats to get the points to use their skills. They won't though is the problem. What will stop a BM from default energy and Max Fireball? Increasing the cost by 20 would do that but then one would have to invest about 2-3 levels to cover the cost increase. The creativity would be limited. Instead of making combos of multiple skills, people would stick with just one so they don't have to 100+ energy to keep their old build. And classes with Reroute or Static Charge? They wouldn't need to invest anything into energy unless you make all their skills cost over default energy.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 12
4/5/2012 2:34:38   
Shadronica
Member

No I am not assuming people will still use the same builds at all. What I am saying is this ... if people want to abuse a base stat then fine but they will not have enough points left over to buy a high damage skill to benefit entirely from the base stat abuse. Sure they might have access to mid level skills but of course they will gain no real big advantage.

What I am saying is this ... why should we be able to abuse our base stats and still be able to max out heavy damage skills?

Look its just an idea in a sea of an already bloated suggestion pool that will probably not even get looked at. ;)

DF AQW Epic  Post #: 13
4/5/2012 2:41:05   
ND Mallet
Legendary AK!!!


 Unless you plan bumping costs up to 70+ for one skill alone at high levels, people will still abuse them. The players aren't dumb, they will lower the skill level and invest more into the stat it improves with to save on energy. There is no rule in ED stating they have to have Maxed Skills to abuse them. Energy serves them no purpose aside from skills. Stuff like tech, dex, strength and support do though. It's going to come down between using more energy for more damage or using more base stats to improve more than just the skill damage or effect.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 14
4/5/2012 8:27:18   
TurkishIncubus
Member

quote:


Make the cost of energy in our skill tree much higher


this will kill all the remaining strategy and the complete game will turn in to 1 way power builds or no one will use skills at all. I belive energy cost should be reduced(for defensive moves especially) to make builds able to use atleast 7/12 of the skills with 1 build.

like a caster mage only uses Plasma Bolt-Technician-Heal-Plasma Rain so that builds work with only 4 skills thats ridiculous but its working in this game.

The builds should be like the old str TLM(ik i always give the same example), with a str TLM you could use Heal-Double Strike-Hybrid-Maul-Technician-Smoke-Reroute-Frenzy-Atom so its 9/12 with endless combination.
For example against a Support TM you could use Technician-Change hybrid to energy-smoke-Heal-Frenzy... and for BM you could use Smoke-Double strike-Frenzy-Double strike and for Tank builds you could go for Maul. So for different oponents or different situations you could use different strategy. Even if your oponent crited instead of wainting death you could chage your strategy to win. But now it looks like who starts win, who is lucky wins, who spams win.

_____________________________
Epic  Post #: 15
4/5/2012 10:04:32   
comicalbike
Member

i agree there is no skill in this game any more its all been caused by the nerfs you cannot have a focus build because the bloodmages go straight through it, the game has changed to fun only now with no skill

_____________________________
Epic  Post #: 16
4/5/2012 11:56:39   
Elf Priest JZaanu
Constructive!


 This is a unique concept, and it is quite interesting.

When you view this, think of an evolving restraint. What the classes have become are one stat max skill builds.

Great concept Shadronica. A very unique strategy in extending this game in thought.
AQW Epic  Post #: 17
4/5/2012 13:07:06   
One Winged Angel1357
Member


 I have my doubts about this because only having three skills for the first ten levels well it doesn't change how two classes play the first ten levels much if at all(mercs max Hybrid, mages max Plasma Bolt) so before I really pick a side Shad can I ask how you think the skill trees should be rearranged for this idea to work because that is the one line I believe most people are forgetting about.
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 18
4/5/2012 17:50:17   
Shadronica
Member

OWA you tell me what you would like to see as the first 3 starting skills on our tree.

I think Field Medic is fine for the first tier skills on all classes.

How about a tech mage gets Field medic, Defense Matrix and Assimilate on the first tier of the skill tree.

Mercenary gets Field Medic, Adrenaline and Intimidate or Atom Smasher.

Bounty Hunter gets Field Medic, Energy Shield and perhaps Bloodlust.

I am not really so familiar with the so called "upgraded classes" so I will leave that for someone else to work out but I am sure you get what I mean.

At level 10 the second tier of skills would open up for players and you could perhaps have ... whatever you think would be best for level 2 tier.

Down to the fourth tier that opens up at level 30 which would have the highest damage skills placed there and of course we would need to adjust the energy cost of these skills to reflect a more balanced game by players having to invest more points in energy to obtain them.
You see at level 34 we should not have players maxing out high damage skills.

What we should be seeing is a steady progression in our skill tree.







< Message edited by Shadronica -- 4/5/2012 17:52:49 >
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 19
4/5/2012 23:26:43   
Goony
Constructive!


 I'm for the level required for tiers being adjusted, just not as much as you previously stated Shad.

How about:
Tier 1: level 1-4
Tier 2: level 5-9
Tier 3: level 10-14
Tier 4: level 25-34

Maybe then the addition of new skills for each class could come with the next level
Tier 5: level 35-49
Tier 6: level 50

I did have an adjusted set of skill trees that I posted somewhere, I just can't seem to find them ;)
Epic  Post #: 20
4/5/2012 23:38:22   
Shadronica
Member

I would be curious to see what you have there Goony.

I still feel that opening skills only at certain levels gives new players plenty of time to explore and use the skills at a more even pace without upsetting balance too much.

I have just been down fishing and caught myself a very nice fish for Easter :) and had more time to think about what I would like to see in each tier.

Level 1-10 would be Field Medic and 1 passive and one defensive skill to be able to buff yourself.

Level 10-20 would be buffs and debuffs.

Level 20-30 should be multi hits and more advanced damage hits because most players want to experiment a little with 2v2 then.

Level 30-40 should be the highest damage as stated many times above. ;)

You guys do realise don't you, that we have only gone up 4 levels in over 2 years? In the meantime we have had all sorts of toys sold to us when we could have been buying higher level weapons while we level'd up if only the game had a plan to progress. The way things are going now we are stagnant because of the imbalance. We cannot get balance by just nerfing or buffing a class skill here and there. The skill tree needs to be fixed firstly.

This is one way that I can see for the game to move forward. Sure there are other ways and ideas but I really think that it is time to get things overhauled and move ahead.

No point in sitting there poohooing the idea just because it will push you out of your stat abusing, maxed out skills, "kill bill" tricky build comfort zone. Panting for your next tricky toy.

Let us all take some responsibility for the stagnation in the game. All I mostly see in this forum is very short sighted ideals for the game and it is reflected in the attitude of our Game Developers. So really it is up to all of us to think just a little further than what we are going to get released this or next week. Come on everyone try to test those few remaining brain cells and think of the future. What do we really want this game to be like in one year from now? Are you happy that by this time next year we may have progressed to level 35 with the same old stat heavy, even more maxed out skill trees?

< Message edited by Shadronica -- 4/6/2012 3:18:19 >
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 21
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