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Plasma Cannon's Damage

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12/28/2012 12:50:20   
  Exploding Penguin
Moderator


 A while ago (although I 'm not sure how long ago) plasma cannon got its base damage nerfed by 4. Why did this even happen? First of all, plasma cannon builds were rarely used so there's little evidence that it required nerfing. Also, bunker does 4 more damage than plasma cannon, but everything else is exactly the same except for the energy/physical damage difference. With this nerf to plasma cannon, BM tech casters are an almost impossible build because plasma cannon costs lots of energy for less damage, and the lifesteal effect of supercharge doesn't stack, making supercharge a weaker skill for BM. I think that plasma cannon should get rebuffed back to the same damage as bunker, unless there's a strong reason why it was nerfed in the first place.
Epic  Post #: 1
12/28/2012 12:52:01   
ND Mallet
Legendary AK!!!


 Because it has a chance to crit and stacked with BM's Bloodlust as well.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 2
12/28/2012 13:05:20   
Mother1
Member

As ND Mallet said Plasma cannon stacks with Bloodlust unlike bunker blaster. A crit with it from a tech abuse build would result in them gaining a high amount of health while Bunker blaster having the same power originally doesn't stack with bloodlust.
Epic  Post #: 3
12/28/2012 15:19:22   
STRUT MY MUTT
Member

Plasma cannon also ignore's 20% of their resistance, which bunker doesn't.

Personally I have no issue with them un-nerfing it. How often do u see a BM with a plasma cannon build anyway?

I'd rather see a high tech BM build than strength.


Post #: 4
12/28/2012 15:19:56   
Hun Kingq
Member

For one stop blaming the health regain because the average damage before the change was between 45 to 50 damage that is one shot due to high energy cast that is between 11 to 12 points of energy return one time. If you wanted max plasma cannon and max super charge look at how much energy you will need so you go from high tech to low tech get malfunctioned than you will have even lower tech due to no tech boost and now you have players saying why even bother with those skills since they are easily weakened.


The one that should answer this question of why the nerf to the Plasma Cannon is Titan himself but neither him or the staff answered that question and they do come up with an answer or reason it will probably be illogical.

Look at how often the Bunker Buster and Plasma Cannon does Critical Damage Bunker Buster does it more often and yes it does. Those skills was unbalanced before the change but more so after the change.

Similar skills should be equal in all aspects there should be no excuses why they should not be equal in all aspects and if they are not equal in all aspects then it creates balance problems between the skills.

Bunker Buster: Fires a rocket ignoring 20% defense; 25% chance for a critical strike.

Plasma Cannon: Fires plasma ignoring 20% resistance; 25% chance for a critical strike, note if you look at wiki it will say 20% defense at the skill location, that needs to be corrected by the persons that does the wiki.

< Message edited by Hun Kingq -- 12/28/2012 15:27:59 >
Epic  Post #: 5
12/28/2012 15:41:25   
Ranloth
Banned


 Here we go that Bunker Buster crits much more often than Plasma Cannon. It's you, not the skill. Pure luck affects it. I can provide you with few screenshots when Bunker did not crit at all.

Sure they should be equal but some skills give another skill advantage that is unfair. Just like SC doesn't stack with BL, it's for sake of balance. Likewise with Plasma Cannon and BL.

quote:

Those skills was unbalanced before the change but more so after the change.

Yes. After the change, one does 4 less damage. They were equal from the start. What made you think BB is stronger than PC (before the change) was your observation skills as well as real life luck. Not the skills themselves.
AQ Epic  Post #: 6
12/28/2012 18:49:38   
King Helios
Member

@ Hun Kingq; Changed.

Anyhow, I didn't see the point of this nerf. Only low levels, generally, use Plasma Cannon.
AQ MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 7
12/28/2012 20:18:27   
Stabilis
Member

Critical bonus is overly frequent at 50% (1/2), and underly frequent at 1% (1/100) to help in the standard battle (1 to 20 attacks).

Why not just change the critical bonus to extra armour ignorance? Reliable numbers and controllable (balance-wise)!
AQ Epic  Post #: 8
12/28/2012 21:04:47   
Mother1
Member

@ king

That is because at the time before plasma cannon was nerfed everyone in their right minds was using that strength abuse build to 2 hit everyone and now everything else was nerfed into the ground to the point where only strength and focus 5 BM are left.

But before the nerf of plasma cannon in the infernal war I used to use a tech BM with max out plasma cannon. When I got a crit with it I would sometimes get 50-60 damage doing so and I used level 7 bloodlust at the time. whenever I crit I would get back 10-12 health each time and with a hit that didn't crit I would get 6-8 health and this is with only level 7 bloodlust need I remind you. Image It would have been even more if I was using max blood lust.

Also when I started seeing BM when I was leveling up before the strength abuse BM came out a lot of them were using Plasma cannon. It was after the CH TLM nerf that this Str abuse BM that people would love to hate came out overshadowing the people who would use Plasma cannon.
Epic  Post #: 9
12/28/2012 22:17:50   
Hun Kingq
Member

Mother1, you stated sometimes so it was not every single match as everyone thinks? 6-8 health and then you get hit the next round with 10+ damage so does that 6-8 health made any kind of difference? How many times can you use Plasma Cannon at max with very high tech in a match without energy regain and healing once?

Can it be used one time?

Two times?

three times?

four times?

Remember we are talking about very high tech.

Gotta stop using the reason of health regain because a person with max reroute can get more energy in a short period of time than a Blood mage can get with Blood Lust helping the classes with reroute used energy based attacks more often and heal multiple times.

The nerf was unwarranted and unjustified and the staff knows this and if the requirements where not easily matched, simple solutions either raise the requirements on one or lower the requirements on the other not nerf one to have even lower damage than the other creating a new balance issue.
Epic  Post #: 10
12/28/2012 22:36:18   
TRizZzCENTRINO
Member

@above skills thats not on par with the same skills of the other classes should be buffed or nerfed, remember massacre is still balanced because it doesn't have secondary effect due to it stacking with smokescreen and bloodlust, imagine it with the ability to reduce the opponent's rage at the same time.

^used massacre as a example for the deserved nerf of plasma cannon.

< Message edited by TRizZzCENTRINO -- 12/28/2012 22:37:14 >
MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 11
12/28/2012 22:39:10   
Mother1
Member

@ hun

One I was talking about level 7 blood lust not max out. If it was maxed it would be more.

Also do you know how many times 6-8 health made a difference to me in some matches? Only a lot. 1 health can be the difference between victory and defeat and you know this. Bunker blaster while it is powerful doesn't award health. Plasma cannon thanks to bloodlust however does.

Also you should know as well as I do that if someone see a build that give wins it will be copied. The Str BM build back before the fireball nerf, and the large amount of focus BM now is proof of this. Since build copying hasn't been outlawed for the sake of not fighting blind as well as people needing a winning build

Also Hun you also need to remember Health > energy you can have 0 energy and still play but if you have 0 health it is over so that argument won't hold water sadly.

Epic  Post #: 12
12/28/2012 23:35:27   
hawtnezz
Banned

 

 where do you guys get the numbers? The difference bet bunk and plasma is not 4. They scale differently. I have over 17 damage difference between a super high tech merc and blood mage.
Moreover it takes a lot more dex to get damage then tech for resistance. So thats an advantage for merc. And yes i agree wit hunn that friggin bunk crits way to often then a plasma any day. You can test it yourself. Try 100 times on junker and see your yourself rather that speculating its luck or whatever. Lastly mother you claim you had level 7 bloodlust if you had level 10 you would have 1 more perhaps 2 if you round it up. Its not a huge difference but if you wanna stick to it makes a huge diff then a health boost is a better solution however a mercs passive is much better cause it works everyturn and its not dependant on my strength. But a max bloodmage will completly trash his blood lust if He cant do high damage everyturn. So if He gets back 10 health back on plasma for sacrificing his strength he will lust get back 2 or 3 health for the next 2 turns whereas the merc will block 6 damage with his hybrid. So No matter what explanation you give the bunk is way better than the plasma. The staff has nerfed blood mage so many times first zerk then multi then came fireball now cannon. So what option does a blood mage have ? Complain on the forums or play a bounty with 98% wins. How come ppl dont complain when a bounty gets 98% wins on the leaderboard everysingle day? Maybe they are used to see a bounty win all the time! Bounty needs the iq of an ant lust smoke massacare with emp. The classes with skill are mercs and blood mages. Every creative build has been screwd to the core. Why are we even discussing this. For all i know there is another thread that says remove bludgeon and deadly aim from a blood mage. Why dont they just remove this class from the game? That will make everyone happy. Seriously ?
Post #: 13
12/28/2012 23:45:17   
Mother1
Member

@ Hawtnezz

Please seperate your paragraphs it will make it easier for people to read.

Also if you look up the moves, Bunker blaster has the same chance to crit as Plasma cannon and also a crit is pure chance so you can't accurately say Bunker crits more then Plasma cannon because the results would never be fixed.

Also the only reason BH is on the LB most of the time is because they use quick kill builds. Being on LB =/= class is OP. You have to get wins quick in order to be on a 1 vs 1 2 vs 2 or Jug LB remember that. A build that get 100% of it wins and is OP might won't make the LB if it is slow paced but a quick kill build will.

Also remember you can have 0 or anything other then health and still duel and being able to get a lot back from moves can make or break.
Epic  Post #: 14
12/28/2012 23:57:56   
hawtnezz
Banned

 

 i am sorry, usually when i post i use you nokia e7. I have no clue how to create a paragraph.

I disagree with you on the leaderboard thing. I could use a character with no items on me with a level 1 weapon and loose everymatch and still be no the number 1 position and win the cheevo.

This is not the case. The win rate is 98% if the win rate was 98% for a tank class then its understandable. But a quick kill and 98% is even worse. No class can get a 98% win except a bounty. If your gonna tell me a tlm kills slow and gets more than 98% then you do not know what your talking anymore. Its just impossible. Cause a tlm will face a tlm and with his slow win rate a few losses will bring his win rate down.
Mother do a win rate vs a battle fought ratio. Bounty is #1
rabble can you give us your figures from the balance tracker here?
Post #: 15
12/29/2012 0:18:01   
TRizZzCENTRINO
Member

quote:

i am sorry, usually when i post i use you nokia e7. I have no clue how to create a paragraph.

I disagree with you on the leaderboard thing. I could use a character with no items on me with a level 1 weapon and loose everymatch and still be no the number 1 position and win the cheevo.

This is not the case. The win rate is 98% if the win rate was 98% for a tank class then its understandable. But a quick kill and 98% is even worse. No class can get a 98% win except a bounty. If your gonna tell me a tlm kills slow and gets more than 98% then you do not know what your talking anymore. Its just impossible. Cause a tlm will face a tlm and with his slow win rate a few losses will bring his win rate down.
Mother do a win rate vs a battle fought ratio. Bounty is #1
rabble can you give us your figures from the balance tracker here?

you are incorrect, the leaderboard count how many time you win not how many times you lose or how much battle you did that you lost in, unless of course they make a section for the highest amount of losses and get the all-time defeated cheevo.

bunker buster and plasma cannon is the same, it depends on when you click the button.

it is certainly possible for a slow kill class/build to get 100% wins, who said it has to be TLM? a focus bloodmage with a good strategy can do the same even when facing another bloodmage. just because not much people see it it doesn't mean it is not possible.

if you know so much about numbers, then give us some liable statistics.


< Message edited by TRizZzCENTRINO -- 12/29/2012 0:19:48 >
MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 16
12/29/2012 0:23:56   
Mother1
Member

@ hawtnezz

I was saying just space out your throught and don't cram them together like your last post.

Also on the LB it is a competition to get the most wins so of course you will need fast wins to be on it otherwise you won't be on it. We see BH on the top most of the time because as I said they use the quick kill BH build that will give you fast wins.

Also any class can have a 98% win rate as long as they win their matches. Plus have you ever heard of NPC grinding? Many players on the 1 vs 1 LB have been using them to improve their average since they are easy wins for some builds. Some people can even 2-3 turn NPC which also heals with quick kill builds getting on the LB and getting this 98% average.
Epic  Post #: 17
12/29/2012 0:28:34   
hawtnezz
Banned

 

 trizz the leaderboard just gives you number of battle you did in a day not you win for the day.

You say the cannon and bunk are same ? Hover your mouse to the skill with and tech and see the difference.

Who is talking about 100% Win here you have not understood like usual. We are discussing games played vs the win rate. Thus making bounty the #1 quick kill according to mother but its the most effective with the highest win rate.

What stats are you asking me? Arnt you the genious with numbers and explanations ... Surprising.
Post #: 18
12/29/2012 0:28:37   
TRizZzCENTRINO
Member

@mother1 good point, most use NPC to get their records/win % up.

quote:

trizz the leaderboard just gives you number of battle you did in a day not you win for the day.

You say the cannon and bunk are same ? Hover your mouse to the skill with and tech and see the difference.

Who is talking about 100% Win here you have not understood like usual. We are discussing games played vs the win rate. Thus making bounty the #1 quick kill according to mother but its the most effective with the highest win rate.

What stats are you asking me? Arnt you the genious with numbers and explanations ... Surprising.


so what? you expect them to be the same? i have used a plasma cannon build, it is devastating in 2v2 without even abusing tech, try it yourself.

BH preys off the non vars and low levels, most high level 5 focus player deals with them easily, smoke and massacre BH don't always have quick kills because when they meet me and some other players the battle usually lasts 8-10 turns.

and nope, the leaderboard clearly says wins done and not battles done, check it yourself as i just checked it now.

yeah surprising........i never mentioned i was a genius with numbers or explanations......are you sure you are ok?

< Message edited by TRizZzCENTRINO -- 12/29/2012 0:38:30 >
MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 19
12/29/2012 0:37:51   
sky222
Member

By the logic of BL giving an advantage Titan would've created a weaker version of Blugeon and DA and put those of BM

< Message edited by sky222 -- 12/29/2012 0:42:41 >
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 20
12/29/2012 0:39:57   
TRizZzCENTRINO
Member

@sky222 thats why they are gonna revamp the skill tree of all evolved classes and replace them with unique skills thats balanced or close to being balanced.

< Message edited by TRizZzCENTRINO -- 12/29/2012 0:41:41 >
MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 21
12/29/2012 6:45:09   
Hun Kingq
Member

TRizZzCENTRINO, comparing a massacre, an ultimate skill to a non-ultimate skill, Plasma Cannon does not justify the nerf unless the Blood Mage has malfunction and since they do not that is a failed comparison. With just smoke massacre is the most over powered skill in the game alone without smoke it can do 70+ damage on a player with decent to high dex but a player with decent to high tech before the nerf with Plasma Cannon on max constant 40, 42, 43, 45 that was with super high tech this is a skill that was suppose to ignore resistance and now after the nerf with the same high tech on players with high tech damage between 25 and 40 and maybe get critical damage once. Before the Nerf a Bunker Buster build merc and I met three times in a row, my tech, dex, and support was higher with both had enough energy to do the skills twice and each time he got critical damage twice in each battle while I did not get critical damage not one time so either something is wrong with the skills or something is wrong with the equations or both.


Mother1, did you know you have 0 energy you can’t use skills or heal it will be like having 0 health but long death, if your blocking even turn than yes 6-8 health will make a difference but if your not blocking and they are getting 10+ damage that 6-8 health will not help you win the match. Nerfing Plasma Cannon because of health regain is not justifiable if it was then they need to nerf massacre. Players of the Blood Mage that use a focus build with decent tech is a Blood Mage that relies upon the bot to win the match, mainly Infernal Android, and if they got rid of focus then you will see less of the 5 focus builds more of the strength builds. Did you know that the fireball was the weakiest skill, even at very high strength and when a player was smoked, in the beginning of Delta and stayed like that for months. Everyone complained about Berzerker about fireball and Berzerker combo when Bunker buster and Berzerker was a deadlier combo or Double Strike and Berzerker. Then the Blood mage got Bludgeon because staff could not come up with a new skill then everyone was complaining fireball was too strong when they had low dex (defense) but what was killing them was Bludgeon and I have proven that on both ends of the dex and strength spectrum in 2vs2 matches. Look at how powerful level 10 Cheap Shot and Double strike is but no one is calling for a nerf on those skills, one ignores a percent of all defense does not give the percentage, the other increases damage on the second strike.

So anyone increase your dex to 106 (30-36) with physical armor and have a strength abuse Blood Mage hit you with max fireball then bludgeon and see which does more damage and you will see the nerf to the fireball skill was another unjustifiable and unnecessary nerf as the nerf to the Plasma Cannon was.
Epic  Post #: 22
12/29/2012 7:00:35   
TRizZzCENTRINO
Member

@above finally you came to your senses to tell the difference between a ultimate skill and a non ultimate skill, im impressed.

however your post was so long that i only read 25% of it, you still don't prove yourself to be correct though.

and then i read the whole thing, and this is what i found
quote:

Mother1, did you know you have 0 energy you can’t use skills or heal it will be like having 0 health but long death, if your blocking even turn than yes 6-8 health will make a difference but if your not blocking and they are getting 10+ damage that 6-8 health will not help you win the match. Nerfing Plasma Cannon because of health regain is not justifiable if it was then they need to nerf massacre.

Hun you said yourself that a ultimate skill cannot be compared to a non ultimate skill, massacre and plasma cannon is a completely different tier skill.

plus, the crit chance on bunker buster and plasma cannon don't stack with other crit boosting stats like support, it always stays at 25%. remember they crit often because they clicked bunker buster at the right time while you are unlucky enough to click on it at the wrong time.
MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 23
12/29/2012 8:18:43   
Hun Kingq
Member

TRizZzCENTRINO, Did you not use massacre, a clearly Overpowered skill by itself, with smokescreen, and Blood Lust justifying a skill that is weaker to be Nerfed. Luck does not have any thing to do with it. I use Plasma Cannon in first turn the merc uses Bunker buster in first turn they do critical damage I don’t. I use Plasma cannon at rage they use Bunker Buster at rage they get critical damage I don’t, it does not matter when you click it lies within the equations that drives the skills and the Titan realized this and that is why the equations are getting adjusted and skills and skill trees are getting an overhaul. It was you comparing and ultimate skill with a non ultimate skill to justify the nerf.

So TRizZzCENTRINO how long are you playing to stay a Blood Mage will it be until they Nerf bludgeon and fireball again? It is sad players of other classes will fight the nerfs to the classes they are in but the few who play the Blood Mage wants more nerfs on the Blood Mage. I would not be surprised if they want the Plasma cannon to be even nerfed more, they probably would want it doing 25% less than damage than it does now.

Every Veteran player of every class when they nerfed the Plasma Cannon stated that was the most unnecessary Nerf because it require a lot of tech to obtain good damage.
Epic  Post #: 24
12/29/2012 8:29:44   
TRizZzCENTRINO
Member

@Hun i did in fact use massacre, no it is not a OP skill because whats really OP is the extra stats that the enhancements give and the scaling of strength. you corrected me about not to compare a ultimate skill to a non ultimate skill but you made the mistake when you know those shouldn't be compared to.

i am going to stay as a bloodmage because in omega there will be a skill tree revamp, therefore bludgeon nerf and fireball nerf is not gonna happen, meaning more builds to tryout before i move on to another class until i find a suitable build/class for me.
i have tried a plasma cannon/5 focus build, and i can tell you that it is not anywhere near UP, i devastated my enemies in 2v2 and i crit often, nothing is wrong with the skills if they don't crit often, it is about you who don't find the right timing to do it, tell me, if the equations are wrong then why do i crit often with plasma cannon? bloodmage is OP as it is, my 5 focus/plasma cannon build proves it, it is powerful as long as there is no tech abuse max EMP bounty hunters or cyber hunters around(i rarely see them).

so whats your reason about it being UP? i have stated mine

< Message edited by TRizZzCENTRINO -- 12/29/2012 8:31:30 >
MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 25
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