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Tech is OP, Support and Dex are UP

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1/13/2013 17:25:55   
Giras Wolfe
Member

PROBLEM: The balance between the stats is skewed horribly towards tech in the current game engine. Lets look at the balance between the skills:

DEX:
Increases block chance (which doesn't matter because now players can string together unblockables indefinitely)
Increases connect chance (which is only really useful in high strength builds)
Increases defense
Increases almost no useful skills (Stun Grenade, Overload, Plasma Rain, Multi-Shot, Technician)

TECH:
Increases deflection chance (which is very significant offensively, especially for users of robots and Deadly Aim)
Increases resistance at a rate SIGNIFICANTLY higher than dex. (At 96 dex you get 28-34 defense, at 97 tech you get 31-38 resistance.)
Increases many useful skills (Smokescreen, EMP Grenade, Bunker Buster, Plasma Bolt, Supercharge, Surgical Strike)
Increases robot damage, which is far stronger than auxillary with a 5 focus build. Note that 5 focus does not limit your strategy as much as it used to, now that you can have 110 hp as well as 45 of every stat.

SUPPORT:
Increases initiative chance
Increases critical chance
Increases stun chance
Increases auxillary damage (which doesn't really matter if you get deflected.)
Increases many useful skills (Reflex Boost, Energy Shield, Intimidate, Defense Matrix, Malfunction etc.)

SOLUTION: Tech is obviously the most useful because it provides a massive amount of defensive and offensive capability. Here are some ways to fix it (I would not reccomend implementing ALL of these things, just stating some options to fix the balance issue):

-Increase dexterity defense progressions to match Tech resistance progressions, OR Reduce tech resistance progressions to match defense progressions, OR Increase defense progression some and decrease resistance progression some. (Depending on if we want to nerf, buff, or leave tank builds unchanged.)

-Move deflection back to support where it obviously belongs, or at least make it improve partly by support and partly by tech.

-Make robot damage increase with support rather than tech, but leave deflection chance on tech.

-Make robots blockable again (Players should not be able to string together unblockables indefinitely)

-Make more practical and useful skills improve with dex. (As in a buff or debuff that is dex-based)

-Give support some kind of additional perk, such as increased connect chance or, I don't know, improve field medic.

-Make robot attack unusable with rage


What are some other methods of buffing dex and support?
What are some other methods of nerfing tech?
What are some issues that will arise if any of the suggested changes are implemented?

Discuss.

< Message edited by Giras Wolfe -- 1/13/2013 17:49:13 >
AQ AQW Epic  Post #: 1
1/13/2013 17:34:42   
Drianx
Member

At last someone else came to this conclusion. So many people are still stuck with 'str and bh iz opz' though...

quote:

Increase dexterity defense progressions to match Tech resistance progressions, OR Reduce tech resistance progressions to match defense progressions, OR Increase defense progression some and decrease resistance progression some. (Depending on if we want to nerf, buff, or leave tank builds unchanged.)

I would rather say decrease resistance progression to match defense progression. Otherwise tanking/5 focus would be even better than they are.

quote:

Move deflection back to support where it obviously belongs, or at least make it improve partly by support and partly by dex.

Umm no. Deflects improved by tech is a good idea, to match blocks improved by dex. But I would suggest making aux undeflectable for boosting support.

quote:

Make robot damage increase with support rather than tech,

I would rather say make robot damage improved only by focus and your level, and not by tech. This would also decrease tech's importance.

In my humble opinion I would stop right here because I think the suggestions I've just made would balance the game pretty well at this moment.
AQW Epic  Post #: 2
1/13/2013 17:41:25   
Mother1
Member

Ok some of these idea I can support however others I can't.

I can agree with making dex matching tech's progression rate with block rate because this would be a needed buff for dex. Also we have a buff that works which dex which is technician.

However, for making robot attacks blockable not supported. Remember when the baby yeti's special was made unblockable? The staff did that because when it was blockable it was leaving a tactical decision to chance and we know how people feel about luck as it is now.

Also the only reason while they made the gamma's bot laser blockable at first was because they couldn't make them deflectable in the first place. The staff even said it wasn't logical for you to be able to block a laser.

Also it has been said quite a few times by players talking with the staff, but field medic will improve with support again.

As for making chairman's fury blockable not supported as well. While I wouldn't mind it not being useable with rage (since it is suppose to give you rage and you can gain rage if your bar is full) It was advertised as being a unblockable attack that takes rage. did you see the commention that was in the forums when the staff was talking about making the yeti ticket available in game when it was advertised as being a promo only perk? It would be the same thing all over again because this was advertised as a unblockable attack that steal rage not a blockable one.

The same could be said with the azreal's borg since it was advertised with having an unblockable special that removes a buff.
Epic  Post #: 3
1/13/2013 17:45:23   
Giras Wolfe
Member

quote:

Make auxillary unblockable


That is a splendid idea. However to accompany it, I would make the base damage boost of an aux lower, like about +32 for a level 35, but increase much more rapidly with support. That way it would only be worth using in high support builds.

quote:

make robot damage improved only by focus and your level, and not by tech.


Another interesting idea. It would fundamentally change 5 focus builds. However I am reluctant to move anything completely away from stats, because stat allocation should be the one of the most important parts of a players build and strategy.


quote:

As for making chairman's fury blockable not supported as well. While I wouldn't mind it not being useable with rage (since it is suppose to give you rage and you can gain rage if your bar is full) It was advertised as being a unblockable attack that takes rage. did you see the commention that was in the forums when the staff was talking about making the yeti ticket available in game when it was advertised as being a promo only perk? It would be the same thing all over again because this was advertised as a unblockable attack that steal rage not a blockable one.


The chairman's fury suggestion has been removed. Since it was advertised as unblockable it should stay unblockable, but definitely it shouldn't be usable with rage.

< Message edited by Giras Wolfe -- 1/13/2013 17:50:55 >
AQ AQW Epic  Post #: 4
1/13/2013 17:52:47   
Drianx
Member

@Giras
By decreasing auxiliary base damage you will decrease its burst damage thus making it ineffective in short fights. I think it would be better to preserve it as it is but to either increase cooldown by 1 or decrease aux damage scaling with support a little bit.
AQW Epic  Post #: 5
1/13/2013 18:18:26   
TurkishIncubus
Member

I think all stats should effect the dmg of weapons somehow. For example:

STR: 0.25 primary - 0.20 secondary - 0.20 HP
DEX: 0.20 primary - 0.25 secondary - 0.25 Def
TECH: 0.30 robot(req: focus) - 0.10 secondary - 0.10 aux - 0.25 Res
SUPP: 0.25 aux - 0.25 HP - 0.25 EN

Lets say you put:
STR: 90
DEX:75
TECH:50
SUPP:40


HP: +18(str)+10(supp)
EN:+10(supp)
Primary dmg: 23(str)+15(dex) = 38
Secondary dmg:18(str)+19(dex)+5(tech) =32
Aux dmg:10(supp)+5(tech)
Robot base dmg: 15(tech)

The ratios can be balanced later.(i just give random ratios to explain the idea) My point is if all stats increase the weapon dmg somehow when you use a dex build or support build or tech build you will not lack of dmg. And that will be easier to balance stats if a stat give much advantage you can just reduce its ratios.
Epic  Post #: 6
1/13/2013 20:15:02   
ED Prince of Shadows
Member

All I need is Field Medic to scale with support, then I can use a support build again (Healed 70 hp at level 32 in the past)
AQW Epic  Post #: 7
1/13/2013 22:47:32   
Midnightsoul
Member

I like Turkish's idea. Makes stats so much more interesting.
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 8
1/13/2013 23:32:51   
Giras Wolfe
Member

@Diranx

You misunderstand. Even though the base damage is lower, the scaling damage is higher. So a player with 80 support now will do as much aux damage as a player with 80 support under the new system. The point is that as it players with 55-65 support still have a very formidable aux because it deals like +40 base damage. Thus, with the change auxillary damage would be initally lower, but more dependent on support.

@ED Prince of Shadows

I agree that simply returning support's buff to field medic will rebalance the stat.

However, the issue of dexterity's weakness still needs to be addressed. The main appeal of dex was the block factor but now that there are so many unblockables its just not good enough to be dex's only perk.
AQ AQW Epic  Post #: 9
2/2/2013 9:57:27   
theholyfighter
Member

quote:

The chairman's fury suggestion has been removed. Since it was advertised as unblockable it should stay unblockable, but definitely it shouldn't be usable with rage.


Yep. Shouldn't be used with rage.............
AQW Epic  Post #: 10
2/2/2013 10:41:42   
ED Prince of Shadows
Member

Have dex increase secondary damage ? Basically nerfing strength builds to be more focused on strike, so that blocking is a far greater factor while giving dex a buff that is only noticeable two to three times a battle.
AQW Epic  Post #: 11
2/2/2013 10:47:23   
Remorse
Member

I support all of those solutions.


Also why is it you can deflect auxiliaries in the first place??

Since when has anyone been able to deflect an explosive that detonates on you?


I support it being undeflectable.


As for dex buff.
Providing support gets field medic back as well as an undeflectable aux.

How about dex gets the starting chance.

Since it makes more seance when you think about it.

Dex implies you are quick and have good reflexes therefore would start more.

And if support has back field medic and undeflectable aux, they can afford to spare the starting chance.

< Message edited by Remorse -- 2/2/2013 10:57:21 >
Epic  Post #: 12
2/2/2013 11:00:13   
ED Prince of Shadows
Member

^I fully agree with your solution, high dex and support is my specialty
AQW Epic  Post #: 13
2/2/2013 11:11:09   
  Exploding Penguin
Moderator


 @remorse: Putting logistics beside, if aux was undeflectable we would be getting uber support builds for TMs, CHs, and, most importantly, both types of mercs totally dominating 2v2 with their dependable kill moves. Considering you can't really have decently strong tech without sacrificing tech, I could just go and use my 159 support build and always hit around a 30-40 against most enemies. When I rage with it, I can probably hit 50-60. If I crit with it, I can probably hit 70s dependably without even needing rage, and, at uber support levels, your crit chance will easily surpass 15% in most cases.

For Dex, I'd just suggest making more useful skills increase with it. Technician is really one of the only good skills dex increases with.

Tech really doesn't need a nerf in my opinion, it takes 4 tech for an extra 1% defl chance off of base, and that's actually quite a lot. If someone's getting deflected, it's probably gonna be 50% cause of the ridiculously high base chance and 50% off of their actual tech, or even less based off of the opponent's actual tech. Maybe shifting some skills which improve with tech to dex would work to balance out the two stats.

What support really needs most of all in my opinion is a more dependable chance of going first and a far faster scaling of stun chance reduction. With 159 support, I still only went first 80%-ish of the time, whereas I feel it should be more like 95% since no one I fought ever matched my support, and about 95% of those who I did had atleast 50 less support than I did. Also, I kept getting stunned about 15-20% of the time, making those 2 factors of support pretty much useless since it isn't dependable.
Epic  Post #: 14
2/2/2013 11:21:31   
Remorse
Member

^Support is not that dependable at all, when you consider the playing field.


Support only increases 1 attack which is not effected by negative luck (artillery strike)

Where as all the other stats have far more attack options unaffected by negative luck.

STR has: massacre, fireball, chairman's fury.

Dex has: Multi shot, stun grenade, ovarload, plasma rain.

Tech has: plasma bolt, supercharge, bunker buster, plasma cannon, plasma grenade.

Plus others I missed.


The point is, Support will not be that great with an undeflectable aux, ever since technology improves deflects aux's have taken a major nerf because they constantly get deflected by builds that have high tech.



Making an aux undeflectable will make some powerful builds yes, but they aren't gonna take over...
But they may however been made up to a competing standard.

Also it won't make tech mage support builds OP, because they still use their gun to be effective and their gun requires high tech to not be delfected so they still need decent tech.

Only build your reasoning is protecting is the merc support builds, but their multi has taken a massive nerf in terms of damage so i doubt they'll ever be a problem.

< Message edited by Remorse -- 2/2/2013 11:28:00 >
Epic  Post #: 15
2/2/2013 12:20:59   
masterbobi
Member

I do not think that Tech should be nerfed. Just because something is better than the other one, nerfing it is not the only solution. I thibk dex needs some scaling buffs but let tech stay the same. As far as I can say indeed some unused skills need a change (scalingwise) so they fit the class better and give a better kit to the class as the tactical desicions the player needs to make.

PS: Stop whining about the support. Support is getting buffed in Omega and whining about something that has been said to be done will not do anything.
K, bye :)
Epic  Post #: 16
2/2/2013 12:59:01   
Lycan.
Member

As far as i know, support is going to improve Field Medic in Omega.
Epic  Post #: 17
2/2/2013 16:18:38   
the final hour
Banned
quote:

At last someone else came to this conclusion. So many people are still stuck with 'str and bh iz opz' though...


strengh is op particually on a BH though add in smoke and a decent level massacre and high strengh ur in serious trouble . especially with shadow arts some would argue its luck based but it gives releatively low dex high strengh bhes / ches a reasonable chance to block .

my argument is as i saw some1 else saying a bit of luck on my side against a strengh bh /ch no big deal abit of luck on their side im in serious trouble its pretty much devastating.
Post #: 18
2/2/2013 23:40:58   
theholyfighter
Member

How come tech is op, dex and sup are up???? Hell No, IMO they're pretty balanced.........
AQW Epic  Post #: 19
2/3/2013 4:10:00   
Drianx
Member

@the final hour
Do not transform your personal issues facing a smoke+massacre BH into a general fact. This is one of the most frequent mistakes people do when evaluating balance.
AQW Epic  Post #: 20
2/3/2013 8:23:35   
theholyfighter
Member

IMO str itself isn't too Oped, but when it is combined with Blood Lust, it's very, very Oped. Str builds should have lower defense and resistance without enhancements, but because Bounty Hunters have Smoke Screen, it lowered the opponent's block rates, which gained Str Bounties an overall massive advantage which leads to the domination of 1Vs1.


Tech is not Oped, Dex and Sup is not Up......................come on..........
AQW Epic  Post #: 21
2/3/2013 11:06:51   
  Exploding Penguin
Moderator


 Like Holyfighter says, there isn't any OP/UP stats in particular. Some stats may lag behind others slightly, but not enough to make a huge deal.

Tech is not OP (from my opinion) because:
-It scales slowly with deflection chance, unlike dex, which scales much faster
-Deflections remove half damage, blocks negates all damage
-Strikes are always available, and they are blockable, not deflectable. If you have decent strength and keep on striking, it overall makes the opponent's deflection chance from tech pretty useless
-The only skill that is deflectable is deadly aim (which is really a passive, not particularly a "skill")
-Most other massive damage skills, such as bludgeon, double strike, zerker, maul, and other important skills like assim, atom, and debuffs are all blockable, which negates 100% damage from these skills. If anything, dex would be more powerful than tech IMO
Epic  Post #: 22
2/3/2013 17:11:51   
Giras Wolfe
Member

Those are excellent points, exploding penguin. But do not forget that auxillary and robot are both also very powerful deflectables, and even though strike is "always available" it is very easy to chain together these 3 skills indefinitely.

But like as stated elsewhere, all I really want is more useful skills increasing with dexterity.

For Bounty Hunters, Stun grenade and Multi-shot are both vastly impractical, because it's impossible to make a "caster" bounty hunter. Stun grenade is only useful for stun chance, not damage, which is connected to support, not dex.

For Tech Mages, a dex-based caster simply doesnt work nearly as well as a tech based caster due to the vastly higher damage of Plasma Bolt and Supercharge over Overload and Plasma Rain.

Tactical Mercinaries only have Stun Grenade, which, again is only useful for stuns especially since the class has mineral armor.

Mercinaries have nothing in their tree improving with Dex.

Blood Mages have the same situation as bounty hunters, a dex based stun and multi that just isnt powerful enough to justify the skill points.

Cyber Hunters would logically want high dex from Plasma Armor, but they again only have multi shot, which is a joke of a skill.
AQ AQW Epic  Post #: 23
2/3/2013 20:51:37   
  Exploding Penguin
Moderator


 -Dex CHs were actually quite potent before static and multis got the supernerf.
-I've made a BH caster build and it actually worked quite well, with around an 85% win rate. Of course, this was in 2v2. There are too many weaknesses for BH caster in 1v1. Shadow arts increases block chance as well as stun chance. Take advantage of this to make a support-based one with moderate shadow, moderate reflex, level 7 multi shot, and level 6 stun grenade (as well as level 6 blood lust). Surprisingly enough, shadow arts is just the skill to make hunter stuns totally not worthless, as well as already increasing the block chance from the high dex. Stun grenade is virtually useless on TLM, though, particularly since the class doesn't have shadow arts.
-I've made a dex caster for BM as well, with a strong win rate in 2v2.
-One very viable 2v2 build for TM is the high-assim low-reroute dex caster, which is great for many situations such as fighting against TLM tanks in 2v2.
-You're right, mercenaries need something that improves with dex. Hybrid armor has a monstrous dex requirement. The only skills that really "work" with dex are pretty much all of the ones in the middle path of the skill tree, just because all except for adrenaline are blocakble
-CH focus with high dex and moderate tech would seem like a very viable combination, particularly with shadow arts, because you can gain energy from a nearly unblockable static. You block with high dex and static, and deflect with malfunction. Unfortunately, deflection scales slowly with tech, so malfunction will at best increase your deflection rates by a meager 5-10%. Still, CH focus builds are quite tough opponents because your debuffs will be blocked, kill moves like bludgeon and zerker will also be blocked, etc...

..and that's just my interpretation of how most skill trees work with dex. It's not that dex itself is underpowered, it's poor combination of the skill trees which makes it a useless stat on pretty much all mercs.
Epic  Post #: 24
2/4/2013 0:40:18   
Giras Wolfe
Member

I am, of course, familiar with the bounty hunter strategy you outlined and have used it with much amusement in the past.

In beta, the max multi-shot + Reflex Boost strategy worked beatifully, not so much now though.

Yes, these skills are useful.

I guess it just bugs me that tech gets skills that have all sorts of effects (energy drain, debuff, etc.) but Dex only gets "damage" skills, aside from technician.

It would be cool to see a support buff or debuff improving with Dex in the future.

However, overall, you've talked me down.

Exploding Penguin is right, dex is not underpowered, mainly because so many powerful attacks like bludgeon and berzerker are blockable, and that stops 100% of damage. Plus tech scaling faster really only makes a difference of 3 defense points, which is not enough to be concerned over. And support will not be underpowered once it is reunited with Field Medic.

So, in summary, it would be nice to see more tactical dex based skills in the future, but the stat is not underpowered.

Request lock.

< Message edited by Giras Wolfe -- 2/4/2013 0:47:14 >
AQ AQW Epic  Post #: 25
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