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The problem begins with teriable core ideas.

 
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2/27/2013 4:53:54   
Remorse
Member

The reason why this game SHOCKING state of balance is at one of its worst right now is because of exploitations in shocking aggressive skill core ideas which ruin any counters for spamming power.



WHY is it do you guys think that spamming either STR, DEX, tech and STR still dominates, more so Support now since you get the first chance more often?

BECAUSE OF THE TERRIBLE COUNTER RUINING SKILL CORES!

How is a shield meant to be effective if they shrink it?


How are you supposed to counter 2 extremely powerful attacks lined up with azreal's will?

The answer is you basically can't yes you can yeti but as soon as the get the gun back they will use it followed by a massacre....


WHY do you think people are practically forced to go quick kill builds?? Perhaps because they are completely forced to, to have a chance by giving luck a chance...






EVEN without the new cores these builds are still WAY to hard to counter, you shouldn't be able to stack up power any time and have a nice set of counter ruining cores to let your effortless quick kill build work every time...


EVERY TIME THE DEVS MAKE A CORE LIKE THIS I COMPLAIN, NOTHING HAPPENS AND I WATCH AS BALANCE TURNS TO WORSE THEN EVER!!






MY SOLUTION:


First off, of coarse the current azreals will need a nerf...


For a start the azreal aux special can deal only 50% damage on the attack AND only work on stat buffs ( NOT FLAT ARMOUR BASED SHIELDS)
This way you cant spam support spam malf and spam your aux whenever someone tries to shield....

THIS TECHNIQUE SHOULD NOT EXIST, IMO IT IS BASICALLY JUST TURNING ALL GAMES LUCK BASED! AND MASSIVELY CONSTRICTING VARIETY!



As for azreal's will I would be much happier if it only constricted you to using any attack that turn rather then just a strike.
This way it will still have it's use of stopping heals etc, but it can't be used as a means for power builds to stack powerful attacks with less return fire.





THE ONLY HOPE FOR THIS GAME NOW!!



Is for them to actually put some POWER EFFORTLESS SPAM defensive skill core counters! into this dam game so that it may actually be fun to think...




One of the top of my head would be this:





Damage converter: (armour skill core activateable)


Place a shield on yourself which reduces end damage by 20% and returns 30% of raw damage of incoming attacks for 2 turns.


Having it return raw damage means that if you spam power and lack defenses attacking through this shield will cause devastating damage on them.

This means they may decide to wait out the shield for once therefor slowing them down therefore making them much easier to counter.




This is just one idea of many but basically the concept of skill cores that NEED to be implemented are those that are defensive power abusing counters, they should also be relatively exploit less, that meaning it can't be used for effortless wins on their own, rather just used for countering.




< Message edited by Remorse -- 2/27/2013 4:59:49 >
Epic  Post #: 1
2/27/2013 5:08:58   
Blitzex/Sr. Zeph
Banned


quote:

For a start the azreal aux special can deal only 50% damage on the attack AND only work on stat buffs ( NOT FLAT ARMOUR BASED SHIELDS)
This way you cant spam support spam malf and spam your aux whenever someone tries to shield....

THIS TECHNIQUE SHOULD NOT EXIST, IMO IT IS BASICALLY JUST TURNING ALL GAMES LUCK BASED! AND MASSIVELY CONSTRICTING VARIETY!

everyone complains about the aux, yet never about the robot, yet they still got the same effect...
It isnt the aux, its the gun.

quote:

As for azreal's will I would be much happier if it only constricted you to using any attack that turn rather then just a strike.
This way it will still have it's use of stopping heals etc, but it can't be used as a means for power builds to stack powerful attacks with less return fire..

Not supported.
Then its more UP then usefull...
I can however agree with giving the players the choice of using:
strike
gun
aux
No skills, no robots, only those 3, if they are in cooldown? Bad luck, should have saved them.
Making it every attack makes the whole gun useless, i still want some quality for my money, 50,- isnt nothing if its only for those items...
Epic  Post #: 2
2/27/2013 6:48:36   
Remorse
Member

^ I agree with the gun getting gun aux strike or basic robot, I did suggest that as well, But was just wanting to see the different reaction for the any attack change.
PLUS it will DEFINITELY NOT BE Underpowered, This skill won't be useless all the time even if it did NO DAMAGE!! If you can stall a heal, energy drain etc then you can use it in powerful combos such as get faster warm uped skills and thus it will never be useless but perhaps it would be changed to only used when incorporated strategy rather then just to bag an easy win.


As for the aux, versus the robot, the aux is WAY better because it deals 100%!!! damage...



This means that they player can ruin a shield gain rage deal 100% damage AND make their debuff build OP.




The aux is still a major problem as well as the robot, azreal borg on my mind has been a ongoing issue, one of the worst things they decided to implement but now its been taken over by the aux, being able to crush any shield counter build is one of the main reason BH's, CH's, and Tech mage debuff spam builds are way too OP.


I would actually prefer it if they changed both the specials since both of them ruin counters of effortless spamming builds.

< Message edited by Remorse -- 2/27/2013 6:54:24 >
Epic  Post #: 3
2/27/2013 7:24:26   
Blitzex/Sr. Zeph
Banned


The problem isnt the effect of the aux/robot.
Its malf and the scaling of aux dmg.

Nerf that and the aux wont hit much and the debuff wont be good anymore.
I mean they lowered the resistance scaling, so malf is OP right now, and since support makes ya go first and improves malf.
Well thats pretty obvious that that is the problem.

Its not the aux, its malf/support.
Epic  Post #: 4
2/27/2013 7:29:14   
Remorse
Member

I say its the combination of both,


Op builds in this game are those with no proper counters aside from luck,

Since starting is luck some builds win no matter what with counter less enforced strategies.




I had NO, trouble against support mages when shielding was effective.


The build itself should be counterable, but it is extremely hard because of the aux.


Epic  Post #: 5
2/27/2013 7:37:47   
Blitzex/Sr. Zeph
Banned


quote:

because of the aux

Because of the effect, not the aux.
Remember its a 1 time use, and the robot has it to.

But there is a counter, but it is only a temporarily counter (yeti's)
And you can always use assualt bot if you get sick of the effect.

Epic  Post #: 6
2/27/2013 8:41:29   
Remorse
Member

Obviously the effect...

The effect is what we were discussing..


Don't get me wrong here, I agree with you that the debuffs are to strong to begin with , but fixing that may need to only be simply adding more effective counter skill cores.
Epic  Post #: 7
2/27/2013 12:57:41   
Promaster
Member

No point talking about nerfing the skill cores. Players with them will simply say "I paid 50 bucks for this promo." etc etc, and when they DO get nerfed, they'll be like "Give us back our money! The cores are useless now! We want our refund or give us some sort of compensation!" etc etc.

HOWEVER, paying players should take note that NOBODY forced you to buy these weapons. And if i'm not wrong, all of our characters belong to AE, and as such, our weapons as well as everything else belong to them as well. So whatever the Devs choose to do with them, we should have no complaints since we should all have been fully aware of the terms and conditions applied when we first started to even start playing, much less paying. So I see no reason why these cores shouldn't be nerfed when they greatly upset the balance in the game. Players who even own these promo weapons have personally said that the two cores are OPed, so I do not see how the cores shouldn't be nerfed when these players themselves who paid the SAME price of 50 bucks just like every other player did for these promotional weapons wants them nerfed so badly.

And for those who says "OPed builds should have a high % of wins! But look at the LB! They only have around 70% wins!"

My simple answer to that would be, OF COURSE THEY DO. What else would you expect when an OP build faces another OP build? Only one will emerge victorious, the other one falls. And when almost everyone are using similar builds, how can you expect to see one of these builds have a high percentage of wins compared to others when their strategy and stats are almost the same? Simple answer. You CANT. And that is why OPed builds dont always have a high % of winning, since they're basically pitting themselves against the same builds with the same strategies. Now, it all goes down to who gets the first turn as well as other luck factors like crit, blocks, stuns and deflects. HENCE this is why first turn and other luck factors affect the game so greatly now. It is all because of the OP builds fighting each other that the only way a build will win when fighting another of a similar build would be just to have a slight advantage over the other.

And in 1v1 now, all i see are the same builds over and over again. I can already predict what build i will face every time i click the 1v1 button. Support TMs, Support massacre CHs, Support Mercs. I can defeat some of them no problem, however, this game lacks so much diversity now that it is almost a bore to carry on playing. What i am doing now is exactly like fighting an NPC who uses the same skills over and over again, the difference would be how different the looks are each time. I myself am a paying player. Just look at my inventory. I didn't just pay once or twice for this game. I lost count on how much I have actually paid for this game and that is why I find it hard to quit the game that i had paid so much for, and had invested so much time in. And I do not plan on quitting any time soon, however, this recent update, patch and the current promotional weapons are really just too much for me. The only time when the game was actually balanced was back in Beta IMO. Sure heal loop was really OPed, but there were still builds out there that could counter it. Even i had a fighting chance of winning them back then. And even heal loop needed strategy. Healing a turn earlier or later would affect the end result of the battle, unlike how the current OP builds are. It's simple following the same strategy over and over again to win. I dont mind losing, but seriously, it gets SO BORING fighting the same fights over and over, and with harsh phrases like "bb noob" or "get a life noob" and even just a plain "gg" when it clearly wasn't are thrown at me at the end of the battle, it really ticks me off.

Now that i cleared this up, I'll repeat what i have said in other threads similar to this. Lower the damage you deal when using the cores down to 50%. 75% would be redundant since malf would just simply ignore the 25% reduction to damage. And tbh, when you force someone to hit you, surely you would be aware of the consequences right? So WHY is it that the forced strike can still be blocked? At least make it unblockable and give the damage dealt to have a slight 10%-20% increase. I do not see how this is OPed since on average, a normal strike deals only 10-25 damage. At most with the increase in % for the forced strike, the damage dealt would increase to 12-30 damage. That is only a simple increase of 2-3 damage. Is it too much to ask for?

And give the gun/aux core a 2 turn warm up. This by no means make the cores totally useless. It simply delays the malf-aux-gun-rage/massacre strategy and gives the opponent an extra turn to make a miracle happen instead of just unleashing this combo with them not being able to do anything about.

I do not see how these two nerfs i have suggested make the two cores utterly useless. I just merely made the gun core a double-edged sword that benefits the user more and delay the strategy by only a single turn. Does this sound like a major nerf? No, it simple allows the user to think twice before using these skills in conjunction with a glass cannon build.
AQW Epic  Post #: 8
2/27/2013 13:12:27   
Mother1
Member

@ remorse

Reason why we have these now isn't just skill cores. It is the fact that they nerfed strength and tech while buffing support with that formula that almost grantee's they go first. But I can agree with you with the aux core.

Of every other core in the game that works with a special effect those cores don't do 100% damage yet these two can. Why is it that whose get full damage while the others don't. I agree the damage from those should be nerfed since they are used for the effects not the damage.

@ Zeph

Azreal's borg only does 60% damage when the effect is used which in most cases is a 3 unless you manage to crit and even if it does crit it is 18 at best unless you are either using the war weapon, or the person has extremely low defenses. Plus unlike the aux robots work with a combo of focus and tech for damage while the aux only works with support. It is a whole lot easier to spam support and get high aux damage even if you are using the effect since it does 100% damage, then it would be to with focus and tech since we have less stats and you are dividing them among 4 stats instead of one. Plus azreal's borg special as I said before only does 60% damage.
Epic  Post #: 9
2/27/2013 13:45:09   
Blitzex/Sr. Zeph
Banned


quote:

. Does this sound like a major nerf?

That are 4 nerfs
-lower dmg
-changing too unblockable
-increasing opponents attack
-2 turn warm-up

So yes, it would be a major nerf actually.

quote:

Azreal's borg only does 60% damage when the effect is used which in most cases is a 3 unless you manage to crit and even if it does crit it is 18 at best unless you are either using the war weapon, or the person has extremely low defenses. Plus unlike the aux robots work with a combo of focus and tech for damage while the aux only works with support. It is a whole lot easier to spam support and get high aux damage even if you are using the effect since it does 100% damage, then it would be to with focus and tech since we have less stats and you are dividing them among 4 stats instead of one. Plus azreal's borg special as I said before only does 60% damage

Make the aux also 60% and it has been nerfed enough since no-one complained about the robot so far so why should the aux be different?
Because it improves by support ony? Thats not a valid reason.
Its support thats needs to be nerfed.

I can agree with:
Torment: Deals 60% dmg and debuffs the opponents by 65%
Will: Forces the opponent to use strike-gun-aux with 10% increased dmg

If you nerf it more then this it will not only be a total ripp off but also valse advertising which is illegal, isnt it??


Epic  Post #: 10
2/27/2013 13:57:18   
Mother1
Member

@ zeph

I wasn't talking about nerfing the overall damage of the aux. What you agree with was what I was suggesting in the first place make the effect of the aux scale like the azreal's borg when using the effect of it. as for everything else I was just explaining to you the vast differences in power between the azreal's borg and this aux which is the bot in an aux.

Plus you weren't around for it, but the forums were full of complaints about the azreal's borg when it first came out. Not because of the damage it did but the effect of the buff. I made shields extremely weak since it destroyed 80% of the effectiveness of shields. No one complained about the damage of this bot because it did so little which I explained.

Lets not forget that support builds are running around all willy nilly and their weapon of choice is their aux. and a support build getting 100% damage while destroying a shield is lethal while said support build can't do the same thing with the azreal's borg. That was why people are complaining about this aux and not the bot because with the bot the damage is small even with focus builds builds but with the aux it is massive with support spammers.
Epic  Post #: 11
2/27/2013 21:44:55   
Promaster
Member

quote:

That are 4 nerfs
-lower dmg
-changing too unblockable
-increasing opponents attack
-2 turn warm-up

So yes, it would be a major nerf actually.


Even with the damage being lowered, support mages/CHs with malf can still easily deal high damage with it. Changing the forced strike to being unblockable, i wont really consider that to be a nerf since the chance for them to block is actually quite low considering their pitiful dex. And seriously, how is an increase of 2-3 damage a lot? The only way this increase in damage will hurt would be if the user was using a glass cannon build. So this really just affects the extreme support builds. Against tank builds, what would have normally been 3 damage would increase to 4. I dont see how this is broken. 2 turn warm up, like i said previously, only delays the strategy by a turn. It will not cripple the entire strategy, but simply give the opponent a turn to do SOMETHING about it.

All of these small nerfs put together wouldn't even be considered MAJOR at all. Does it entirely cripple the build? No. Does it still make the cores usable? Yes. It'll just be a simple, straight-forward nerf that gives the opponent facing these users a slight fighting chance. An example of a MAJOR nerf would be when the Devs changed the stat required for hybrid armor from dex to support. now that is considered a MAJOR nerf, because it totally crippled the extreme str merc builds. Now, all you need to do is to plan and time your attacks when using the cores instead of the way almost everyone is using it now.
AQW Epic  Post #: 12
2/27/2013 22:55:54   
Remorse
Member

Simple nerf would be to simply change both the gun and the aux to 50% damage.



Even then this might not be a good enough nerf,

Azreal will should be 50% damage and any NON skill attack, as in strike, gun ,aux, or basic robot attack.


I still think azreal borg should be the only piece of equipment to fully destroy shield so the aux should be restricted to only reducing any stat based buffs such as technician, reflex boost, feild commander, blood commander AND all the stat buff skill cores they add as the game progresses,

Plus it would be really cool if they made the azreal borg and the azreal aux special work on the two different types of buffs separately,
As in make azreal borg work only on direct amour shields (defense matrix, energy shields, blood shield.)
And the azreal aux work only on stat buffs. ( technician, reflex boost, field commander, blood commander)


The aux may not seem like it has much of a use if it doesn't work on direct amour shields but it should never have the capability of making malf and smoke way too OP uncounterable with shields.

Plus my guess is it will get more of a use as they add more stat buff skill cores into the game.




With both these major nerfs perhaps it will be brought own to a level playing field, when considering the strength of these nerfs think more of how EXTREMELY overpowered these cores are in the first place.

Then perhaps you will realize that a MAJOR nerf is what both of these cores need.



< Message edited by Remorse -- 2/27/2013 23:00:17 >
Epic  Post #: 13
2/27/2013 23:56:30   
  Exploding Penguin
Moderator


I think this could easily be fixed by just changing absolutely all passive cores (save a few such as frost aura, curse aura, celtic cleaver's lucky strike, and all previous passive cores from promos) to not be luck-based at all, like the passive of Omega weps. While the yeti charge is near useless, at least it's fair in a sense that I can actually somewhat predict what's going to happen without worrying about a 25% block chance when I'm going focus tank on equal dex and tech. Once passive cores are fixed so that I stop randomly dying to a 4% crit core on all my non-support builds, I feel that active cores could easily be balanced correctly. To make a note, the varium (enhancement) gap in delta was vastly overpowering F2P players, even more than azrael cores do. Also, if you wait a year, you can get these, as you call it, OP cores. Partially what makes it OP is that very few people have it, so by next year it'll literally be near useless. If you can tough it out until the next few promos arrive with possibly even stronger cores, then there'll most likely be a sudden realization that the active cores granted by Azrael promos is literally nothing compared to future promos and the varium-credit gap back in gamma and delta. At least this way I don't have to worry about throwing 2k varium down the drain when I sell a fully enhanced weapon I don't need anymore, and I have more varium from the package to spend on more fun things like class changes. I do not realize that the cores will ever need a nerf, out of most my wins with using the cores, it's typically based off of people who lack strategy, conform to their normal move combos, and don't bother to plan around the cores themselves, thus leading to their doom. I have faced countless SMART casters who have easily bested me when I used these cores by healing and preparing themselves to work around it when they know a possible use of azrael's will followed by rage may come up, and thus my win rate against casters is something like 1/7. Also, the vastly overpowered crit cores which double base crit chance will often kill me when I use Azrael's will because of a random critical out of the blue.

I think many players were far too glad to be released from the humongously unfair varium-credit gap in delta, and now lots of F2P players are back to raging again when a single promo was released which pales in comparison to how unfair the enhancements were. Like in all previous stages of ED, those who pay get rewarded and some special privileges such as these cores. One possible reason why a lot of people are very upset about this promo is probably because it isn't available in-game, but, the promo will be next year. By next year, I will have lost ALL benefits from having the core for the rest of ED, particularly since I had to get the 10k package for them, and everyone else, who was patient and waited, gets it for credits only. From that point of view, is it really that unfair compared to what was happening with enhancements back in previous stages?
Epic  Post #: 14
2/28/2013 0:35:36   
Remorse
Member

^ I agree with you their,


Just as I have been stating passive luck cores will destroy balance as soon as the first core on azreal bane was released.


Plus I also agree that activateables can be made much more balanced aswell.


It starts to annoy me when I predict things way back no one listens or even agrees until it comes true.
Epic  Post #: 15
2/28/2013 0:55:33   
  Exploding Penguin
Moderator


Passive cores to an extent can be nice, like an extra 1 or 2% boost. A massive 4% boost which double crit chance literally destroys the game, as well as lets a low-defense merc support like me crit on average 1 time per fight (if not more) as well as enabling me to block/deflect with a luck-based core randomly and win the fights off of total unfairness from unpredictable luck. Another terrible thing is that you can't even see what cores your opponent has, making it even harder to decide whether or not you should kill with a deflectable or a blockable.
Epic  Post #: 16
2/28/2013 9:43:56   
Remorse
Member

^ Completely agree penguin
Epic  Post #: 17
3/1/2013 17:31:52   
kosmo
Member
 

Do you guys think that is fair to always offer oped weapons for a lot of money, then just nerf them in some way or other?Is it fair to ruin the gameplay for the two weeks just because they need to hide balance poblems, wich already existed, while tournament is live?If counter is impossible luck prevails and evryone rush fast wins.So who has the ticket and the arzel s promos(100 buks) is happy, ofcourse only until they get nerf and have the possibility of releasing an other oped set.....

< Message edited by kosmo -- 3/1/2013 17:32:22 >
Epic  Post #: 18
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