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Dage Guns Fix

 
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4/24/2013 1:54:01   
Xendran
Member

fixed by simply causing the guns to scale properly, which they currently do not. I believe that the way these guns scale so extremely was actually unintentional by the developers.

Here are the comparison charts. It will give you an idea of how absurdly high the scaling factor is by having the *.85 applying before def/res as opposed to simply calculating damage as normal and then cutting it in half.

VERSUS 35 (30 +5) DEFENCE | RESISTANCE

Standard
[[15 + 35]]

(50 - 35)/2      =  8 On Both {16}
(50 * 0.85) - 35 =  8 on Both {16}

[[20 + 35]]

(55 - 35)/2      =  10 on Both {20}
(55 * 0.85) - 35 =  12 on Both {24}

[[20 + 35 + 10]]

(65 - 35)/2      =  15 on Both {30}
(65 * 0.85) - 35 =  21 on Both {42}

[[30 + 35 + 10]]

(75 - 35)/2      =  20 on Both {40}
(75 * 0.85) - 35 =  29 on Both {58}



Rage
[[15 + 35]]

(50 - 20)/2      = 15 On Both {30}
(50 * 0.85) - 20 = 21 on Both {42}

[[20 + 35]]

(55 - 20)/2      = 18 on Both {36}
(55 * 0.85) - 20 = 27 on Both {54}

[[20 + 35 + 10]]

(65 - 20)/2      = 23 on Both {46}
(65 * 0.85) - 20 = 36 on Both {72}

[[30 + 35 + 10]]

(75 - 20)/2      = 28 on Both {56}
(75 * 0.85) - 20 = 44 on Both {88}



VERSUS 35 (30 +5) DEFENCE | RESISTANCE While Debuffed (Average of -9 Defence | Resistance)



Standard

[[15 + 35]]

(50 - 26)/2      =   12 On Both {24}
(50 * 0.85) - 26 =   17 on Both {34}

[[20 + 35]]

(55 - 26)/2      =   15 on Both {30}
(55 * 0.85) - 26 =   21 on Both {42}

[[20 + 35 + 10]]

(65 - 26)/2      =   20 on Both {40}
(65 * 0.85) - 26 =   30 on Both {60}

[[30 + 35 + 10]]

(75 - 26)/2      =   25 on Both {50}
(75 * 0.85) - 26 =   38 on Both {76}



Rage

[[15 + 35]]

(50 - 14)/2      =  18 On Both {36}
(50 * 0.85) - 14 =  29 on Both {58}

[[20 + 35]]

(55 - 14)/2      =  21 on Both {42}
(55 * 0.85) - 14 =  33 on Both {66}

[[20 + 35 + 10]]

(65 - 14)/2      =  26 on Both {52}
(65 * 0.85) - 14 =  42 on Both {84}

[[30 + 35 + 10]]

(75 - 14)/2      =  31 on Both {62}
(75 * 0.85) - 14 =  50 on Both {100}


^ That last one is the most aggregious. The gun is dealing nearly double the damage that i believe the developers intended it to be dealing.
Also, if your strength is too low, you shouldn't even be using this gun. As you can see though, at 15+35, it's identical, and simply has a lesser scale.
At damages below 15+35 it's actually slightly more powerful, but soon you'll just hit the point where' youre goign to hit double threes with both either formula anyway.
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 1
4/24/2013 2:10:03   
King FrostLich
Member

I barely see any person using these guns nowadays. Plus, all stats already have been nerfed by the increased diminishing which lowers the damage and defense of everyone. Most of the guns players use are either the azrael guns or cheap guns from Junker.

< Message edited by King FrostLich -- 4/24/2013 2:12:03 >
Epic  Post #: 2
4/24/2013 2:28:51   
Xendran
Member

Just because the stat nerf makes them less powerful still doesn't mean they should work in a way that's so prone to breaking. Especially since the level cap is going to keep rising.
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 3
4/24/2013 3:19:38   
Blitzex/Sr. Zeph
Banned


I dunno but why are you only directing this to the Dage gun, since all multis work the same as this gun.
Of course, DA stacks with it, but that only counts for 2 classes, where as multis work for all classes.

Dage's gun is a multi that improves by strength, basically the same as all other multis..
Epic  Post #: 4
4/24/2013 4:42:43   
Xendran
Member

The skills are a whole different issue on their own because you have to take into account turn value, energy cost, energy:hp ratios, all that jazz.
Not that they're being taken into account right now, but when fixing them, it will be.
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 5
4/24/2013 12:43:12   
Mother1
Member

@ xendran

I remember when you first made this, and back then I could agree with it more then I do now. Unlike before the stat that powers this weapon up (strength) was a whole lot stronger. As it is now it is weaker then multi's in 2 vs 2 since strength itself not only got a massive nerf (improving with 4.5 strength from the start instead of 4) but the extra diminishing returns with this weapon as well which weren't nearly as steep as they are now. Where are the multi's themselves work with the other stats.

Plus as Zeph as why just this weapon? In 1 vs 1 it works the same as any other weapon, and in 2 vs 2 you are forced to attack 2 targets if both are standing. It isn't like you can choose. There are already drawbacks to using this weapon in two vs two why are you trying to add more?
Epic  Post #: 6
4/24/2013 13:48:14   
  RabbleFroth
Member

Oooh, my math senses are tingling.

I'm not convinced the guns need a nerf, especially not one that is so drastic. Defense hurts multi attacks much more it does single-target skills.

Are you mainly concerned with doing more total damage with these guns than a single target using the same stats?
Post #: 7
4/24/2013 18:02:04   
Xendran
Member

The reason i've cut it down to an actual half instead of something like 55 or 60% (which could also work) is becuase it seems like a core that's meant to be used as a utility finisher, or a way to not waste rage, etc.
Another big part of the reason that i didn't give it extra power is because there doesn't seem to be a consistent value given to cores. Turns and cores should both have inherent value, allowing you to balance around it.
If we're going off of something like the meteor skills and giving flat out offensive active cores 110% the power, throw them at 60% (this actually ends up with them at 114% when taking the base 10% deflection rate into account)

The biggest issue with the 85% and its location in the forumla is that as the level cap raises, it continues to rise in power to the point of being literally the only option for active gun cores.
I know that the game isn't going to live to the 80ish level cap titan said that the engine was made for, but that doesn't mean that things that are goign to inherently break the game at high levels should still be left in as they are until they start becoming a problem again.
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 8
4/25/2013 5:39:48   
Blitzex/Sr. Zeph
Banned


quote:

The biggest issue with the 85% and its location in the forumla is that as the level cap raises, it continues to rise in power to the point of being literally the only option for active gun cores.

All Multi's will rise in power as there are more stats to allocate them into it.
Spreadfire's advantage above other multis is No energy cost, nothing more which isnt a reason to decrease it's power with 35% as it would underpower the gun tremendously compared to other Multi's.

And a side-note, spreadfire is not an active core, but a passive.
Making it an active would already be a good nerf.
Epic  Post #: 9
4/25/2013 5:48:58   
Xendran
Member

quote:

Making it an active would already be a good nerf.


While i DID forget that it's passive, this brings about two issues

1. Removes the downside of being unable to aim the gun manually in 2v2
2. Lets you throw +crit onto it
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 10
4/25/2013 6:02:59   
Blitzex/Sr. Zeph
Banned


quote:

2. Lets you throw +crit onto it

Everything can crit, except for the Ultimates, but that is not a reason to nerf it.
All multi's can crit so..
Epic  Post #: 11
4/25/2013 6:10:38   
Xendran
Member

I'm talking about the 4% crit core. Spreadfire doesn't really need an extra 4% crit on it.
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 12
4/25/2013 6:13:47   
Blitzex/Sr. Zeph
Banned


Make it unstackable, problem solved.
Epic  Post #: 13
4/25/2013 6:14:14   
King FrostLich
Member

^Spreadfire is already its passive core. There's no way the crit core can occupy the dage guns.
Epic  Post #: 14
4/25/2013 6:54:01   
Xendran
Member

Making cores unstackable is the worst possible thing you could do, becuase it's indicative of a system that is broken enough to require arbitrary limitations on how you can use it.
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 15
4/25/2013 6:55:11   
Blitzex/Sr. Zeph
Banned


^ It also prevents abuse.
Color Blast + Azreals Will, just saying..
Epic  Post #: 16
4/25/2013 22:58:48   
theholyfighter
Member

Actually if I had the option to choose I'd rather to get the Stun Cannons rather than to use Dage's Boomsticks. Thought they need a different calculation, or perhaps the problem is about too drastic diminishing.
AQW Epic  Post #: 17
4/25/2013 23:12:07   
  Exploding Penguin
Moderator


To be honest, dage's guns need a buff. They do a very small amount of damage, unless the user has deadly aim or massive strength (both of which are unfavorable with the slow scaling), and benefits from rage and life steal only work on the opponent damaged the most. I think that the damage should just be buffed back to 100% because in 2v2, if you have enough strength to actually do considerable damage, you'll quickly die before you can use the gun more than once (and sometimes 2 times if you're lucky) per fight. This also shouldn't be a problem with deadly aim because it got a massive nerf where it's required to invest 4 more skill points for 1 less damage than it previously was at max efficiency.
Epic  Post #: 18
4/26/2013 7:32:41   
Xendran
Member

Penguin, that just makes it more prone to breaking as the level cap and stats get higher, look at how absurd the numbers got even with just enhnacements.
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 19
4/26/2013 21:55:26   
  Exploding Penguin
Moderator


More levels also means the max level cap increases, and it'll take 2 levels of stat points (I'm aware one level will increase gun damage by 1) to further increase a gun's damage by 1 more.
Epic  Post #: 20
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