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11/2/2013 10:52:28   
Ranloth
Banned


 Before you post, this thread is NOT for complaints about the recent change nor a balance discussion. If you feel it's bad, Energy cost is too high, etc., post in EpicDuel Balance instead.

With yesterday's update, some active cores now cost Energy to use. Their costs range from 5 Energy to 20 Energy, depending on the power of a core. For example, Energy Shot only takes away Energy for 25% of Gun's damage and costs 7 Energy to use, whilst Frost Shards/FrostBite deals 100% damage (deflectable/blockable) and applies Energy DoT, for up to -15 Energy drained, and costs 9 Energy instead to compensate for damage.
Another example are Meteor cores which have straight-up damage boost and cost 10 Energy, whilst cores with effects - such as Omega Override/Curse - cost 12-13 Energy. Latter is blockable and deals 10% damage less, but it has effect which may be more significant than higher damage for one attack.

Cores are now near impossible to be abused all at once, unless you're willing to spend a significant amount of Energy on them. Without a source of Energy, such as EP-regen or EP-returning skill, you will have limited source of Energy. This means you have to sacrifice some moves to use cores and strategize. Even classes with a fixed source of Energy will not be able to use all of their cores because it may cost them other skills.

In the end, cores are now aiding us. Are you willing to use your own skills for x Energy or rely on a core? Likewise in fights with players who have or have not got any active cores. Some builds wouldn't be able to use their own skills and cores at the same time, so they can forgoe a specific core and get a different one which may be even free.
Furthermore, everyone has a counter for these cores. There are total of 4 cores which drain Energy, and one which doesn't cost any Energy at all! You can own up to 3 Energy draining cores at once, if you choose to, and be able to counter everyone, but it may not be as effective as you may think. Also, we have 2 cores which return Energy, so those without a source of Energy (but your own) can invest in either, Piston Punch or Generator.

To start off the discussion:

  • Is the change good or bad?
    • Take facts into consideration - more counters, more strategy involved, harder to abuse, etc.

  • Do you think Energy cost is a good way to balance cores' power?
    • Possibly because power comes at a price (Energy).

  • Are the Energy costs reasonable for cores?
    • Remember that our Energy is scaled now and higher than in Delta, but 1 stat = 1 EP instead.

  • Would you like Devs to try this with Bots?
    • Not all Bots - ED Team could introduce new Bot with re-useable special attack (with an effect?) for x Energy cost.
    • Existing Bots wouldn't be affected, since it's just a suggestion.
    • HP cost could also be introduced.

  • How about cores that cost HP to use instead?
    • Think about variety and some builds not having Energy source but plenty of HP to spare.
    • This doesn't mean existing cores, but brand new cores in the future.


    Edited to clarify some stuff, add some information, and fix some nasty typos. Also, you don't need to follow the questions - these are just examples to start off the discussion. ^^

    < Message edited by Trans -- 11/2/2013 16:36:53 >
    • AQ Epic  Post #: 1
    11/2/2013 11:04:43   
    Cyber Dream
    Member

    		1) Is the change good or bad?

    Good, Im loving all this strategy!

    < Message edited by Cyber Dream -- 11/2/2013 17:19:08 >
    AQW Epic  Post #: 2
    11/2/2013 11:12:15   
    danirasab
    Banned


    		 1) Is the change good or bad?

    Yes, for me as a BH; All I just do is take that person energy away (-60). They cannot use any of there physical active cores which means they cannot do a higher damage as expected. Then I smoke (-60) which means since they cannot use there chairmans pride etc. The only thing they can do is strike == to a block. Then I auxiliary+bot+strike = win for me


    2) Do you think Energy cost is a good way to balance cores' power?

    Yes because power comes at a price (Energy).


    3) Are the Energy costs reasonable for cores?

    N/A

    4) Would you like Devs to try this with Bots?

    No not at all. Maybe a few bots that have an effect on the player or the enemy lasting for some round etc. Bio borg or Poison bot (Not gamma bot or Azrael borg etc.)

    5) How about cores that cost HP to use instead?

    No that will completely ruin the game. You die so quickly in the game as it is. It could work if they bring back the stats to hp and energy back to +2/3 instead of +1
    Epic  Post #: 3
    11/2/2013 11:16:46   
    King FrostLich
    Member

    		1) Is the change good or bad?

    Good.


    2) Do you think Energy cost is a good way to balance cores' power?

    Power cores yes, certain and tactical cores, just a little

    3) Are the Energy costs reasonable for cores?

    Only for power cores.

    4) Would you like Devs to try this with Bots?

    The infernal android and botanical hazard's special should. Infernal Android's special should start at 0 mana when power is at 100% and/or probably 15-20 mana to use its special when at maximum. As for botanical hazard, using its special costs 5 mana upon the first usage. On its second usage, it starts requiring some of your health with still a fixed cost of 5 mana to cast. The more you use it, the more health is needed to use its special. [N/A] to NPC's.

    5) How about cores that cost HP to use instead?

    Blood Mage and Bounty Hunter are only capable of doing this effectively. Tanks can too but it can be riskier if not used right.

    < Message edited by King FrostLich -- 11/2/2013 11:21:28 >
    Epic  Post #: 4
    11/2/2013 11:34:21   
    Sensei Chan
    Member

    		1) Is the change good or bad?
    Bad.

    2) Do you think Energy cost is a good way to balance cores' power?
    Yes.

    3) Are the Energy costs reasonable for cores?
    All, but Force Strike costing 20 energy.

    4) Would you like Devs to try this with Bots?
    Yes they should since they have done it to cores.

    5) How about cores that cost HP to use instead?
    No I wouldn't use them. (IMO)

    Epic  Post #: 5
    11/2/2013 12:01:22   
    Predator9657
    Member

    		1) Is the change good or bad?
    Good

    2) Do you think Energy cost is a good way to balance cores' power?
    Yep. However it indirectly buff's TM, Merc and TLM since they have energy regain.

    3) Are the Energy costs reasonable for cores?
    Sure. The main complaints are coming from people with Azrael who didn't like the nerf to their gun ^^

    4) Would you like Devs to try this with Bots?
    Yeah, why not?

    5) How about cores that cost HP to use instead?
    Definitely. Energy based cores, enable reroute and assim/static to utilize them greater than other classes can, so it's only reasonable that HP costing cores be released for classes which have HP regain to synergize with.
    Epic  Post #: 6
    11/2/2013 13:14:27   
    Chosen 0ne
    Banned


    		 Is the change good or bad?

    The change is a good one.

    Do you think Energy cost is a good way to balance cores' power?

    It definitely helps and the way it is right now doesnt make it destructive for people who use cores. They're still completely reasonable.

    Are the Energy costs reasonable for cores?

    Yes. ^^

    Would you like Devs to try this with Bots?

    No, that would be like putting energy costs on guns and aux's.

    How about cores that cost HP to use instead?

    It would be easy to implement because they did it blood armor right? But for the most part no, it wouldnt make much sense unless of course the core is new and it fits with its animation and what it does.
    DF AQW Epic  Post #: 7
    11/2/2013 16:03:03   
    DeathGuard
    Member

    		Is the change good or bad?

    Neither. It is neutral, it restricted the cores from being abused but some classes are in disadvantage due to costs and limits of strategy with skills.

    Do you think Energy cost is a good way to balance cores' power?

    Hm, I had said some requirement of stats would have been better e.g. Meteor deals 110%, so maybe there maybe an opposite stat requirement like 35 support or some defensive stat to stop abusing builds.


    Are the Energy costs reasonable for cores?

    I consider them a bit out of control, I had rather save those 20 energy for smoke than to use e.g. Azrael's Will. Costs could be lowered.

    Would you like Devs to try this with Bots?

    No, it would restrict us more and more which would be a negative comeback.

    How about cores that cost HP to use instead?
    Would be interesting what cores would be used with hp and their respective effects, but restricting abusing of this would be that such cores wouldn't deal special damage ( cores like Meteor, Dread Aux's core, etc.)


    AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 8
    11/2/2013 16:11:42   
    martinsen5
    Member

    		Is the change good or bad?

    In my personal opinion, this change was needed as some cores were just straight up unfair, like Forced Strike and Fury. However, let's take the classes that are unable to regain EP into consideration. Cores were originally meant as extra skills that can be of use for every class. Now? I feel like any class without Reroute or Static Charge/Smash are left out, AKA Blood Mage and Bounty Hunter. Sure they have Blood Lust, but at the end of the day I think EP regain is far more beneficial as you can use it for cores, skills, in addition to healing yourself. Hence I do not think this change is as well thought through as it maybe could be.


    Are the Energy costs reasonable for cores?

    Depends on your class, for a BM or BH, no.. 20 energy for Azrael's Will is insane. As a BH I already burn half my energy on Smoke Screen, and I'm left with barely enough energy to heal later on. I think you get my point.

    Would you like Devs to try this with Bots?

    Again, I wouldn't mind as long as all classes were able to regain EP to some degree.

    How about cores that cost HP to use instead?

    I thought of this, and yeah it could be an idea for Blood Lust classes, but as this skill will soon become active I'd prefer all classes to have EP regain instead.
    AQW Epic  Post #: 9
    11/2/2013 16:12:30   
    ValkyrieKnight
    Member

    		Is the change good or bad?

    Great without a doubt.

    Do you think Energy cost is a good way to balance cores' power?

    Absolutely, the cores obviously have tiers within them, now there's a bit more thought put in as to which cores best fit your build.

    Are the Energy costs reasonable for cores?

    Quite reasonable so far. I think however the energy draining cores like energy shot need its energy usage reduced.


    Would you like Devs to try this with Bots?

    Absolutely, I can't express how irritating it is when people stall and kill with infernal robot or poison bot. They're far too many game changing bot cores that they should be taxed now if cores are going to be.

    How about cores that cost HP to use instead?

    I like the idea, would be a unique approach to strength + physical move builds.
    AQW Epic  Post #: 10
    11/2/2013 16:29:56   
    DeathGuard
    Member

    quote:

    Edited to clarify some stuff. Also, you don't need to follow the questions - these are just examples to start the discussion. ^^

    I got some questions for you guys to answer: 
    [b]1.) If you aren't feeling good towards the energy costs, what have you done/adjust to be able to win the battles since update was live?[/b]
[b]2.)Have you made a build regarding the cores' energy costs or you just use them as a last chance attack?[/b]
[b]3.) What type of cores do you think need some revamp both in effect and energy cost?[/b]
[b]4.) What type of builds you have encounter which have adapted to the cores' energy costs?[/b]
[b]5.) Do you think you had able to adapt if bots had an energy cost?[/b]


    < Message edited by DeathGuard -- 11/2/2013 16:30:58 >
    AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 11
    11/2/2013 16:41:28   
    martinsen5
    Member

    		@DeathGuard

    If you aren't feeling good towards the energy costs, what have you done/adjust to be able to win the battles since update was live?

    Had 45 points in each stat but Technology, basically had to lower Tech from 70 to 50 and put 20 points into energy in order to keep my usual cores. My Build got weaker, then again other builds did too, which compensates.

    Have you made a build regarding the cores' energy costs or you just use them as a last chance attack?

    Power cores are the main part of my damage output, yes. Still are, just needed to make a few adjustments.

    What type of cores do you think need some revamp both in effect and energy cost?

    Azrael's Will, even though I don't have this core myself, I agree it's extremely over priced, as Energy Shot can be just as useful. The way Azrael's Will works now, is you basically force a player to strike you while at the same time losing 20 EP, completely different from before.

    What type of builds you have encounter which have adapted to the cores' energy costs?

    Basically any class with energy regain...

    Do you think you had able to adapt if bots had an energy cost?

    It would screw my build over completely, would have to change it if so, but yeah!
    AQW Epic  Post #: 12
    11/2/2013 16:52:12   
    Ranloth
    Banned


    		 If you aren't feeling good towards the energy costs, what have you done/adjust to be able to win the battles since update was live?

    Absolutely nothing. My build can do Plasma Cannon + Heal for 50 EP, and I'm left with 12 EP for Lvl 2 Bludgeon. It's either that or Omega Override/Concussion Shot/Energy Shot. I have Generator to afford a third heal, but I could pull of Energy Shot + Override/Concussion if I wanted. Depends on the situation.

    Have you made a build regarding the cores' energy costs or you just use them as a last chance attack?

    Almost no change. I used Override after Plasma Cannon, and I do so now but not immediately but wait to see how the battle progresses. Rarely Energy Shot, whether it's prior or after the change.

    What type of cores do you think need some revamp both in effect and energy cost?

    Effect revamp is balance, so not here. Look at it this way: you lower core's effectiveness and you get lower EP cost, simple as! Azrael's Will is expensive, yes, but it should stay somewhere between 15-20 Energy, to ensure balance.

    What type of builds you have encounter which have adapted to the cores' energy costs?

    Those who can get Energy back passively. It's one thing if you have EP-returning skill, but if it relies on opponent's Energy then it's easier to deplete it now. It's debatable. No builds have truly adapted because even those which get EP back from skills will end up with less Energy. If you don't depend on cores (and didn't use to), you're safe - such as myself. If you depend on them a lot (and used to) then it will be more difficult for non-EP regaining classes. But hey, strategy for you!

    Do you think you had able to adapt if bots had an energy cost?

    If these were new Bots, yes. Bots should remain free but it'd be good if new Bots could have Energy-costing special attacks. *points to the first post*



    Remember, guys, you're not forced to answer the questions! They are there as examples which can be used to start off the discussion. You're free to post your own feedback in one big paragraph and omitting some questions which I've included in the first post. It's a discussion after all! ^^

    < Message edited by Trans -- 11/2/2013 16:55:29 >
    AQ Epic  Post #: 13
    11/2/2013 17:01:12   
    danirasab
    Banned


    		 1.) If you aren't feeling good towards the energy costs, what have you done/adjust to be able to win the battles since update was live?
    N/A

    2.)Have you made a build regarding the cores' energy costs or you just use them as a last chance attack?
    N/A

    3.) What type of cores do you think need some revamp both in effect and energy cost?
    Curse because although it is a neat core, it doesn't do a great debuff for 13 energy? Ehh I think it should be reduced to 5-7.

    4.) What type of builds you have encounter which have adapted to the cores' energy costs?
    N/A

    5.) Do you think you had able to adapt if bots had an energy cost?
    Never. If bots had it too then I would just quit this game.


    < Message edited by danirasab -- 11/2/2013 19:26:38 >
    Epic  Post #: 14
    11/2/2013 17:43:50   
    lionblades
    Member

    		Imo this is the best idea the devs have come up so far in terms of balance in Omega. Granted, a few builds such as the STR-SUPP TM are not affected, but many builds that use the azrael gear (and other cores) require much more tactics than before.

    @Devs and the people who thought of this idea
    Thank you for not just nerfing a class and let another one rise in its place. Also, thank you for not listening to subjective balance (ie. Merc, BM, TLM OP stuff)-- I think main reason why people thought BM was OP was due to the cores such as azrael meteor strike, and chairman. And the TLM surgical-azrael will build.

    Now that these energy cost-cores are implemented, many builds can now no longer just spam unblockable or strong effective cores.
    AQW  Post #: 15
    11/2/2013 18:04:27   
    DeathGuard
    Member

    		My turn to answer my own questions.
    1.) If you aren't feeling good towards the energy costs, what have you done/adjust to be able to win the battles since update was live?
    My build was based on massacre + meteor and Azrael's Will so I decided to change it. Instead of using IA, I use Pyro Fly which deals +30 with its special effect most of the times, and most times gives me the advantage of the whole battle. Also using Stun Grenade instead of Meteor, Massacre and Cheapshot has become handy.

    2.)Have you made a build regarding the cores' energy costs or you just use them as a last chance attack?
    Not really, I have based my build in my robot and skills rather than core which work way better than I thought.

    3.) What type of cores do you think need some revamp both in effect and energy cost?
    Piston Punch, Energy Shot, Azrael's Will.

    4.) What type of builds you have encounter which have adapted to the cores' energy costs?
    Tank draining energy builds, and builds who use Piston Punch cores.

    5.) Do you think you had able to adapt if bots had an energy cost?
    If costs were low, maybe I had think of using less energy to have more damage output.
    AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 16
    11/2/2013 18:58:55   
    GearzHeadz
    Member

    		1.) I don't like it, but its good.

    2.) Oh absolutely.

    3.) A little bit lower, I'd be happy with.

    4.) Nope. Nope. Nope.

    5.) Could be interesting, if balanced properly.
    DF AQW Epic  Post #: 17
    11/2/2013 19:29:54   
    dfo99
    Member
     
    quote:

    Even classes with a fixed source of Energy will not be able to use all of their cores because it may cost them other skills.


    Trans, i dont believe that you say a thing too inexperienced, maybe you need left from forum and play the game, the core cost average 7-15 of mana, and is almost impossible defeat a tech mage with high health points (120-149 average) and max rerout, without have few points in mana bar. will be very rare the energy cost of core broken they builds and force them use a normal atack (primary, secondary, aux, bot). and more important: you forgot that is extremly rare someone need use the 4 cores (F2P almost impossible need).

    < Message edited by dfo99 -- 11/2/2013 19:38:02 >
    Post #: 18
    11/2/2013 19:42:02   
    DeathGuard
    Member

    		@Dfo99: That's a poor perspective. It is possible if the TM uses such in malfunction, Field Medic, Technician, or Defense Matrix and stays with low energy. It is easy to take their energy with Static Smash and EMP so there's enough proof Trans is right.
    Take in mind that just because your perspective of your gameplay doesn't fits with other's experience, doesn't means you're/they're wrong e.g. We live different experiences throughout our lives, but we do all share the same experiences? No, we experience hundreds or thousands of experiences which others may not experience.
    AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 19
    11/2/2013 19:43:39   
    Dual Thrusters
    Member

    		Trans's Questions

    quote:

    Is the change good or bad?


    The idea is good. However, I think that some cores should have a lower energy cost and others getting a higher one.

    quote:

    Do you think Energy cost is a good way to balance cores' power?


    I think it was okay. But maybe some of the cores should have requirements instead?

    quote:

    Are the Energy costs reasonable for cores?


    For the most part, yea.

    quote:

    Would you like Devs to try this with Bots?


    No, that would be devastating to any class that doesn't have an effective EP regain. And this would be nerfing something that is already balanced

    However, this would be interesting for future bots.

    How about cores that cost HP to use instead?

    This would be very interesting.

    Deathguard's Questions (thank you for already having them coded btw)

    1.) If you aren't feeling good towards the energy costs, what have you done/adjust to be able to win the battles since update was live?

    I think requirements would be a great alternative

    2.)Have you made a build regarding the cores' energy costs or you just use them as a last chance attack?

    I just try to avoid using them now. Only if someone used like frost shards, then I would be free to use my cores.

    3.) What type of cores do you think need some revamp both in effect and energy cost?

    Exile/Legion Strike have a way too low EP cost (still, even if they are rare).

    4.) What type of builds you have encounter which have adapted to the cores' energy costs?

    Tech Mages o.e

    5.) Do you think you had able to adapt if bots had an energy cost?

    Yes, it is called selling your robot to buy Strength cores -.-





    MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 20
    11/2/2013 20:06:00   
    ValkyrieKnight
    Member

    		Question to people who think energy cost would ruin bots, why is this? Because there's no energy cost, it gives too wide of tier difference between the bots. ED has too many bots that are literally never going to be used because the game gives no incentive to use them. I think it would be a good idea so that the lesser strong bots such as the pyrofly will have some usability.
    AQW Epic  Post #: 21
    11/2/2013 20:12:31   
    dfo99
    Member
     

    		 @DeathGuard this hapens in a relatively uncommon circunstance. the merc need a high str and static smash skill points, and the bh need a high lv emp, and if the tech mage heal, he will get return mana points from new hp from heal and unfortunily the tech mage have the assimilation (i talk about this in a fight 1v1 of 36 vs 36)

    < Message edited by dfo99 -- 11/2/2013 20:14:16 >
    Post #: 22
    11/2/2013 20:17:10   
    DeathGuard
    Member

    		@Valkyrie: Pyro Fly has one of the most strategic and can make the battle to have the result instantly if used correctly. My current ratio with Pyro Fy is +80%
    Also as mentioned before, energy costs on robots would restrict us way too much and people would feel oppressed. Requirements on cores was a change slightly boost the balance but robots needing energy would be to an extent a negative comeback instead of a positive one.

    quote:

    @DeathGuard this hapens in a relatively uncommon circunstance. the merc need a high str and static smash skill points, and the bh need a high lv emp, and if the tech mage heal, he will get return mana points from new hp from heal and unfortunily the tech mage have the assimilation (i talk about this in a fight 1v1 of 36 vs 36)

    It doesn't, I always get their energy to be around 1-10 without having a high skilled emp. A Merc with 11-14 strength can easily take out 26-31 damage of their opponent with lvl 3 Static Smash. I can prove this since my alt Cyberbakio is able to do such. My emp normally takes out 34 energy, which is half of their energy most of the times. Also remember it may be that way due to your build. Even with assimilate, if you lack energy they can't take such, and when they take yours away, most of the times the counterattack is to do the same.

    < Message edited by DeathGuard -- 11/2/2013 20:24:37 >
    AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 23
    11/2/2013 21:21:34   
    dfo99
    Member
     

    		 @deathguard

    with 62 of mana suffering a mana atack of 30 the tech mage can use the malf in max (32 of mana) if have 144 of hp can get with reroute 44 of mana and use: max bludgeon (28 of mana) frost shards (9 of mana) and energy shot (7 of mana) all without use the assimilation, with assimilation him not have anyproblem with mana costing only a hit 15% weakned, with the piston punch you lost 1 hit totaly
    Post #: 24
    11/2/2013 22:13:46   
    Noobatron x3000
    Member

    		20 mp for azrael is completely reasonable its one of the most game changing cores in game if used right it should not be free or cheap. 20 is fair makes you think to use something so powerful they could get away with 30 honestly.
    Post #: 25
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