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1/27/2014 18:24:16   
Goony
Constructive!


quote:


BALANCE

Static Grenade
Static Grenade is currently draining a bit too much energy at once. The energy gain effect felt about right, so we increased the percentage to keep it about even.
Lowered base energy drain to 95-220 from 100-250
Energy gain increased to 35% from 30%

Toxic Grenade
Toxic Grenade was a little too spammable in the case of the opponent cleansing the poison, so we’re increasing the cooldown; we also want the initial damage to feel meaningful so we increased the damage there.
Increase initial damage to 85% from 70%
Increase cooldown to 2 from 1

Venom Strike
Poison damage increased by 10 at all levels

Assimilation
Lowered base energy drain to 70-150 from 70-170

Battery Backup
Lowered base energy gain to 190-325 from 200-350

Plasma Bolt
Tech Mages are outperforming the other classes at every level; we want to bring them more in line across the board by lowering the damage on their main spell.
Lowered damage by 15 at all levels

Blood Commander
Blood Commander feels a bit lackluster in general, so we’re giving it a bit of a boost, especially to the amount of lifesteal.
Increased Strength by 2 at all levels
Increase lifesteal percent to 60% of Strength gain from 40%

Intimidate
Intimidate is another skill that feels a bit underpowered, so we’re giving it a lowered Energy cost and nudging up the effect.
Lowered Energy cost to 95-230 from 100-280
Increased Strength debuff by 2 at all levels

Hybrid Armor
Increased buff by 10% at all levels

Field Commander
Along with Blood Commander, we felt this skill needed to be a bit stronger to justify its use.
Increased Strength gain by 5 at all levels

Blood Shield
Blood Shield has long been a skill that is hard to justify using in most cases. A flat Health cost at all levels keeps the cost reasonable, and we've increased the effect to make it more useful in general.
Change to flat health cost
Increase base Resistance gain to 50-150 from 40-130
Now improves by +1 every 4 Support

Frenzy
Frenzy wasn't quite granting enough Health to feel as satisfying as we wanted, and Tactical Mercenaries were lacking in tools to ignore a target’s defense.
Added 10% defense ignore
Removed Club requirement

Fireball
Blood Mages are currently under-performing at most levels, this should give them a general boost in power.
Increased damage by 10 at all levels

Smoke Screen
We wanted to pull some of the free high level power from Smoke Screen given how well Bounty Hunters scale with this skill.
Slowed stat scaling to +1 every 5 Tech from every 4 Tech


That was the last balance update and in general it was a move in the right direction!

Here's some other changes I'd take a look at:

Energy Parasite
Blood Mages have a poor energy return skill, while it can force opponents to use or lose energy, the overall returns are very low when the opponent uses their energy.
So to improve initial drain, keep the ability to stop opponent from replenishing energy by using their drains (which are stronger) and have an improvement at higher levels the changes proposed are in red!

Drains a % of target's Maximum Energy for 3 turns. Caster gains 1.5x the amount drained. (Capped at opponents energy pool)

Skill Details:
Level 1: 3% Max Energy
Level 2: 4% Max Energy
Level 3: 5% Max Energy
Level 4: 6% Max Energy
Level 5: 7% Max Energy
Level 6: 8% Max Energy
Level 7: 9% Max Energy
Level 8: 10% Max Energy
Level 9: 11% Max Energy
Level 10: 12% Max Energy

Improves with: Character Level
Level 15: +1%
Level 20: +1%
Level 25: +1%
Level 30: +1%
Level 35: +1%
Level 40: +1%

Atom Smasher and EMP
These skill can be rendered unusable when your opponent drains enough energy. While both classes Tac Merc and CH can regain energy it's a losing battle. I'd remove the energy cost for use, skill points are valuable enough or give them a flat very low value energy cost! Say 50 energy for Atom Smasher since it is blockable and requires a club and 80 energy for EMP since it is unblockable, but does less damage.

Stun Grenade and Plasma Grenade
Discrepancy between damage compared to Overload. Buff damage from 170-320 base to 170-380 so that damage matches Overload. This will be slight buff to TIM, BH and CH and may increase use a bit!

Field Commander
Not a match for Blood Commander, energy cost should be dropped to 60-150

Adrenaline Rush
This skill must be replaced with something that either modifies opponent rage gain and is an active strike or another skill altogether as rage has been watered down and the cost of a turn and energy doesn't justify using unless you can use an unblockable skill on rage! Very limited build options to use this skill!

Assimilation
In the main Tech Mages are avoiding training support as they can have a very effective build that uses health, strength and some dexterity. So, I'd put a support requirement on this skill 18-42. Would be a slight nerf, but overall not big enough to kill the class!

All AOE versus 2 opponents
Been playing 2v2 a bit and these skills are now underused in 2v2... I would try increasing damage to 90%, but have a modification so that they have no chance to critical!

All Ultimate Skills
Use has fallen away due to energy drains, possibly rescale energy costs to 300+25 per level to see if use increases!

Hatchling Rush
Core is now used more than Azrael Will, increase energy cost to 220 energy

Not sure how to deal with robot cores. The way Necrosis and Armor Annihilator stack can be devastating especially when combined with smoke/malf and hatchling rush... Perhaps new cores that worked opposite to the debuffs or a massive buff to assault bot from 65% restore to 80% restore as the bot is seldomly used due to how effective Infernal Android is...

Anyway that is just my opinion on what might help balance a little bit.

If you are going to post ideas in this thread please just focus on existing skills and adjusting them.

Please don't post TM are OP do something! Your feedback needs to both identify the issue and give some idea on how to rectify the identified issue!


I have included numbers, but it is ok to suggest ideas alone!


_____________________________

In Epic Duel,
success is not final,
failure is not fatal
and it is the courage to continue that counts!
Epic  Post #: 1
1/27/2014 18:37:34   
Ranloth
Banned


Energy Parasite could use the buff, yes. But I'd also be for lowering the damage penalty it has - it's too big and often locked to 50 damage. So something between 70-85% damage - you're likely to hit 30-50 damage with that too, but not on glass cannons at least.

Atom Smasher and EMP, I'm not sure. I like the idea, but very cheap costs for the two of them. EMP is very effective with moderate Tech, at Lvl 1 already. Making it cost less (100 vs. 80) and the same amount at all levels, I'm not sure... Perhaps something like 75 for Atom Smasher, and 125 for EMP?

Overload requires a Staff to use, unlike both Grenades, hence why it has higher damage. Removing requirement from Overload is a no, because that makes it imbalanced between classes; less skills requiring a Staff, and BMs would have even less reason to use a Staff - except for Str build. Buffing Grenades to Overlord level is also a no, due to what I've said earlier. I'm for a buff, but not making the three equal.

Field Commander is a bit too much. Maybe along the lines of -20 EP across the board, but your suggestion would be a bit too much.

Adrenaline Rush is a tricky one. At the time, I was for making it cap at 50% rage gain (Lvl 10), and make it completely free. It also has Strength requirement now, instead of Support. I'm really unsure what to do with this skill. Perhaps give it instant %-based HP regen, upon use? Just for one turn, so you can take advantage of that rage and not die. After all, you've also lost a turn worth of damage.

Assimilation, I guess that could do. A bit wary about it, since I've posted my thoughts on it, in a different thread...

All AOE versus 2 opponents, absolutely not. Many players would prefer 85% damage and chance to crit. 5% damage is a very small difference, whilst no crits does affect it quite a lot. I'm for it, if you cross out the removal of crits.

All Ultimate Skills, yeah, that could work. Small steps at the time, so it won't be overshot and overpower some builds.

Hatchling Rush, eh... I'd be for bumping down the effect to 30-33% instead, and keep its EP cost at 150. Making it 220 EP would result in making the core difficult to use, even with the strong effect. Almost unusable for many, just like Azrael's Will nowadays. I know how powerful the core is, but it'd be too much with the EP cost. :/

I'll edit the post tomorrow, with all feedback. It's getting late here and I have no energy left for lengthy posts.

The feedback is based on your suggestions. I've had few different ideas in mind, which I've posted in my own thread, such as bumping down Assimilation a little, and in return, remove the Staff requirement. Or a small suggestion regarding Atom Smasher, to make it more appealing to use, but I won't hijack your thread.

< Message edited by Trans -- 1/28/2014 3:21:11 >
AQ Epic  Post #: 2
1/27/2014 18:50:07   
Mother1
Member

@ Goony

For robot cores here is an idea add an energy cost for the specials. While I know energy is overly stressed due to the costs of so many things adding an energy cost to it would make players think about using the core before using it. The cost could vary depending on what robot special they use.
Epic  Post #: 3
1/27/2014 18:59:13   
Goony
Constructive!


@Trans - Ok, well that is simply fixed, remove the staff requirement from Overload... Won't make much difference to Tech Mages since they have other skills that require staffs and it may help Blood Mages a bit.

What I'm trying to suggest is ways to buff some of the under performing classes by making their under used skills more viable. But does it really matter that one has a weapon requirement in relation to damage. The minimum damage is the same. Shouldn't that also be lower on the grenades if the class weapon requirement was factored into the damage?

@Mother, I would agree with that if there was a slight increase in the energy gained per level.

< Message edited by Goony -- 1/27/2014 19:12:01 >
Epic  Post #: 4
1/28/2014 3:06:31   
kosmo
Member
 

very good suggestions, many players(including me) have suggested similiar ideas, so supported;
i agree expecially whit the buff to parassite and the change to EMP and Atom(no cost added) which needs to be tested and balanced propely.

mother@
adding energy cost to bot specials would overkill focus builds even more, there are other ways to balance necrosis whitout destroing all other bots.



< Message edited by kosmo -- 1/28/2014 3:14:25 >
Epic  Post #: 5
1/28/2014 3:24:21   
DarkDevil
Member

percentage values don't scale with player level , rather increases with the increase of the subject of it.

on assim a supp req is rather a chain since caster classes can't use supp to that extend.
i'd rather change the scale to supp , to prevent the destruction of caster builds.

< Message edited by DarkDevil -- 1/28/2014 3:30:57 >
AQ Epic  Post #: 6
1/28/2014 4:04:54   
Xendran
Member

For starters, some of the stuff in this thread was pretty valid. I wouldn't put in all of it in the current state of the game but there are some good ideas.
As for adrenaline rush:

Adrenaline Rush
Strike, consuming all of your current rage;
Ignores a % of 45% of defences ignored based on consumed rage;
Increases accuracy by a % of consumed rage points;

(For example: if you have 50% of your rage bar, you will ignore 22.5% defences)


1  - 2.50% (35% Increased Accuracy @ Level 40 w/ full Rage Bar of 1400 Points)
2  - 2.85%
3  - 3.20%
4  - 3.55%
5  - 3.90%
6  - 4.25%
7  - 4.60%
8  - 4.95%
9  - 5.30%
10 - 5.65% (79% Increased Accuracy @ level 40 w/ full Rage Bar of 1400 Points)


< Message edited by Xendran -- 1/28/2014 4:05:44 >
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 7
1/28/2014 4:07:28   
kosmo
Member
 

builds having base support are essentilally abusive builds, i remember when certain builds arnt aviable due to skills requirment and crit effectivness.

focusing on buffing the up classes is for sure better of just nerf assimilation to the ground.
Epic  Post #: 8
1/28/2014 4:12:45   
Xendran
Member

Tech mage wouldn't even need assimilation if it wasn't for them destroying the idea of actual energy flow and just slapping a bunch of EP Damage skills onto everything.
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 9
1/28/2014 4:23:22   
Remorse
Member

They need to give all skills a cost!
Whether it be, hp, ep, rage, or a new cost system.


Reason being is skills become much easier to balance if they have a downside.

A lot of more balanced games never make an extension skill outright better with no downside compared to basic attacks/skill/version and their is a reason for this, they should not be outright stronger because things become unbalanced fast when it is comparably and definitely stronger then something else with no downside.


It also helps to counter skills adding strategy to battles and provides certain risk requring thinking in turns, for instance, say a mage uses battery backup, it is pretty much a no brainier to use a free costing drain, but if it was not free it would require thought and thus induce some sort of actual strategy and fun in games over the relatively simple mechanics it is now.

< Message edited by Remorse -- 1/28/2014 4:25:22 >
Epic  Post #: 10
1/28/2014 4:25:53   
Goony
Constructive!


@Trans, Huh on Stun damage, what? A sword gives 5 more stats, so is roughly equivalent to 10 damage... The level 10 difference at base levels is 60 damage. I wonder why all those TM use overload at high levels. and grenades don't get used

With AoE attacks I wanted to improve the skills without overpowering mercs in 2v2. 5% is more than you think, it would be almost the same total gain (HP damage wise) that you would get from a crit. on one of the two targets... Do the maths before you say it's too small ;)

One thing I wanted to avoid was a discussion about numbers, that's up to Rabble, the thread has basically been made by me to suggest ways to improve poorly performing classes in response to multiple requests ingame for me to ask the devs to balance the game!
Epic  Post #: 11
1/28/2014 13:56:59   
FrostWolv
Member

quote:

Energy Parasite
Blood Mages have a poor energy return skill, while it can force opponents to use or lose energy, the overall returns are very low when the opponent uses their energy.
So to improve initial drain, keep the ability to stop opponent from replenishing energy by using their drains (which are stronger) and have an improvement at higher levels the changes proposed are in red!

Drains a % of target's Maximum Energy for 3 turns. Caster gains 1.5x the amount drained. (Capped at opponents energy pool)

Skill Details:
Level 1: 3% Max Energy
Level 2: 4% Max Energy
Level 3: 5% Max Energy
Level 4: 6% Max Energy
Level 5: 7% Max Energy
Level 6: 8% Max Energy
Level 7: 9% Max Energy
Level 8: 10% Max Energy
Level 9: 11% Max Energy
Level 10: 12% Max Energy

Improves with: Character Level
Level 15: +1%
Level 20: +1%
Level 25: +1%
Level 30: +1%
Level 35: +1%
Level 40: +1%


Supported

quote:

Atom Smasher and EMP
These skill can be rendered unusable when your opponent drains enough energy. While both classes Tac Merc and CH can regain energy it's a losing battle. I'd remove the energy cost for use, skill points are valuable enough or give them a flat very low value energy cost! Say 50 energy for Atom Smasher since it is blockable and requires a club and 80 energy for EMP since it is unblockable, but does less damage.


Supported

quote:

Field Commander
Not a match for Blood Commander, energy cost should be dropped to 60-150


Supported

quote:

Stun Grenade and Plasma Grenade
Discrepancy between damage compared to Overload. Buff damage from 170-320 base to 170-380 so that damage matches Overload. This will be slight buff to TIM, BH and CH and may increase use a bit!


Supported

@Trans: Either lower the grenades energy costs to 30 as overload or increase its damage .... the requirement of staff making overload to do way more damage than grenade at reduced energy cost is not justifiable.

quote:

Field Commander
Not a match for Blood Commander, energy cost should be dropped to 60-150


I agree to Trans. suggestion regarding this

quote:

All AOE versus 2 opponents
Been playing 2v2 a bit and these skills are now underused in 2v2... I would try increasing damage to 90%, but have a modification so that they have no chance to critical!


Its ok as it is right now.

quote:

Assimilation
In the main Tech Mages are avoiding training support as they can have a very effective build that uses health, strength and some dexterity. So, I'd put a support requirement on this skill 18-42. Would be a slight nerf, but overall not big enough to kill the class!


I would say make battery backup as it was again to 350 .... and make some reasonable nerf to assimilation

either remove drain or gain ......

It is the best energy control skill in Epic Duel as it can drain energy, gain energy, deal damage 85%, can crit, has rage gain, energy drain in unblockable, can be used in rage, improves with strength and can be spammed over again for its 3 turn cool down....................This skill is really too much for a class which already has another energy gaining skill ---> Battery Backup.


quote:

All Ultimate Skills
Use has fallen away due to energy drains, possibly rescale energy costs to 300+25 per level to see if use increases!


Interesting idea ... dont know how it will go in-game

quote:

Hatchling Rush
Core is now used more than Azrael Will, increase energy cost to 220 energy


Agreed with Trans at this one


quote:

Not sure how to deal with robot cores. The way Necrosis and Armor Annihilator stack can be devastating especially when combined with smoke/malf and hatchling rush... Perhaps new cores that worked opposite to the debuffs or a massive buff to assault bot from 65% restore to 80% restore as the bot is seldomly used due to how effective Infernal Android is...


Just make all robots special improve with focus to reach its max limits in focus 5.

_____________________________

Epic  Post #: 12
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