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1/13/2015 23:18:36

Cadens Disciple
Member

NOTE: STILL WORKING ON PASSIVE TREES. COMMENT WITH BALANCE NOTES PLZ. SORRY FOR THE WALL OF TEXT, BUT PLZ READ ALL THE WAY THROUGH!

Hi guys, I'm Caden's Disciple and I've played EpicDuel since late beta on numerous accounts and classes. I instantly loved the bite-sized PvP with rich strategy, and have been hooked ever since. However, immediately following the implementation of Delta, I took a break for a while, coming back about a month ago to witness Omega. I believe this gives me a unique perspective on a couple of issues raised by many veteran players while also experiencing the new player experience. I will regularly update this thread, so keep posted as I make edits and adjustments. Comments are both welcome and appreciated. Enjoy!

Things to remember:
1. This is an indie game with a small dev team. So many good ideas are coming forth that a major studio like EA would have trouble putting together in the time frame expected by players. Keep that in mind when asking for things like upgrading faction systems.
2. There has to be some discrepancy between your AVERAGE varium and your AVERAGE credit player. Or noone pays and the game shuts down.
3. This is a game that keeps its players entertained in no small way through bragging rights.
4. The passives-to-actives change, which many veterans have complained vigorously about, is likely here to stay. The dev's reasons are well-outlined and well-thought out, and I suggest you review them before you dismiss the change as entirely bad.
5. These are not my only ideas, and please refrain from posting unrealistic expectations, which I have scrupulously tried to avoid. Any commentary is good, I just don't want to waste space. :P

General Changes:
1. +5 credits/battle (for reasons I will explain later)
2. Retrain cost/level down to 5 credits/level from 10 credits/level, capping at 200.
3. Faction leaders have daily win and avg wins/day view for their members.
4. “Advanced” Classes become free
5. EMP Grenade becomes significantly stronger in energy drain to compensate for cost.
6. Bring back PvP drops
7. Vendbots in Faction HQs, and maybe some Notebot updates.
Class Changes:
1. Passive skill trees for each base class (Hunter, Mercenary, Mage)
2. Basic Skills for all classes, with similar functions at each tier (explanation later)
3. "Unlocked" skill trees

So my primary focus here is on Class Changes, which have been a major point of concern with build diversity nearing an all-time low (stat abuse, tank or focus. Pick your poison- or rather don't, as double-poison focus is the bane of my juggernaut existence :(.) These changes hopefully give as much strategic diversity while having meaningful progression at each level while freeing up skill trees and simultaneously reinforcing a character's core identity. If you protest what I have identified as a class's primary role, feel free to comment.

Basic Skills:
These skills are unlocked with credits in addition to a skill point. You have the option to choose from any of the listed options in that level tier. Bounty Hunter and Cyber Hunter, for example, will have many overlapping skills but their identity differences come in their "Only"s and passive skill trees. Note that this disrupts the straightforward linear system most classes use for skill progression. Also, note that if a character has a particular skill unlocked that is common to multiple classes if they change classes that skill will be unlocked and free. Retraining does not give you free access to skills you have not paid for yet.

Hunter:
Base: Field Medic (Level 1) Cheap Shot (Level 1) and Grenade (Level 1, Plasma for Cyber and Stun for Bounty)
Unlocks at level 2: Defense Matrix, Energy Shield, Dex or Tech Debuff, Energy Debuff
Cyber Only: Static Charge | Bounty Only: Mark of Blood
Unlocks at level 5: Multi-Shot, Grenade(Other one)
Cyber Only: Plasma/Mineral Armor | Bounty Only: Reflex Boost/Technician
Unlocks at level 10: Massacre, Venom Strike, Shadow Arts
Cyber Only: Energy Parasite | Bounty Only: Adrenaline Rush

Mercenary:
Base: Field Medic (Level 1) Double Strike (Level 1) and Maul (Level 1)
Unlocks at Level 2: Intimidate, Hybrid Armor, Plasma/Mineral Armor
Mercenary Only: Blood Commander | Tactical Only: Field Commander (Now buffs support)
Unlocks at level 5: Artillery Strike, Atom Smasher
Mercenary Only: Bunker Buster/Plasma Cannon | Tactical Only: Toxic Grenade
Unlocks at Level 10: Surgical Strike, Frenzy, Plasma/Stun Grenade
Mercenary Only: Berzerker | Tactical Only: Battery Backup

Mage:
Base: Field Medic(Level 1) Overload(Level 1) and Bludgeon (Level 1)
Unlocks at Level 2: Reflex Boost, Technician, Assimilation
Tech Only: Plasma Bolt | Blood Only: Fireball
Unlocks at Level 5: Defense Matrix, Energy Shield, Plasma Rain
Tech Only: Battery Backup | Blood Only: Mark of Blood
Unlocks at Level 10: Supercharge, Plasma Cannon, Fire Wave
Tech Only: Malfunction | Blood Only: Energy Parasite

Skills anyone can use: Blood Shield, Field Medic, Blood Wall (Physical Blood Shield)

Example Progression: This is kinda confusing, so bear with me. As a level 2 cyber I decide to spend some flat amount of credits (like 100 for tier 1)and take smokescreen. Level 3 I decide I want another point in Cheap Shot, then another point in Plasma Grenade at Level 4. At level 5 I pay to unlock a new tier of skills, opening up Plasma Armor and Multi Shot and Stun Grenade. I pay to get Stun Grenade, and continue leveling up Smokescreen, Stun Grenade and Cheap Shot until I hit level 10. I pay for this tier, and decide I’d like Energy Parasite, so I pay to unlock that.
This introduces so many many build possible combinations of skills that maxing your energy regen skill is no longer paramount, and at the very least engenders build diversity through skill selection.

What do you think? Post comments below please thanks :).

< Message edited by Cadens Disciple -- 1/13/2015 23:37:41 >

Post #: 1

1/14/2015 0:17:42

Exploding Penguin
Moderator

quote:

There has to be some discrepancy between your AVERAGE varium and your AVERAGE credit player. Or noone pays and the game shuts down.

Gifting system (bad example but still noteworthy) proves that you don't really need a balance-based gap. Also the number of people who get promo packs is still pretty substantial when viewed as a % of the active playerbase.

quote:

5. EMP Grenade becomes significantly stronger in energy drain to compensate for cost.

EMP is also plenty strong. If anything, the energy cost could stand to be reduced by a bit rather than strengthening the drain, but still IMO it doesn't really need to be touched much if any at all.

quote:

Retrain cost/level down to 5 credits/level from 10 credits/level, capping at 200.

Retraining just shouldn't require credits to promote more build creativity. They already implemented the hidden losses feature so people are a bit more encouraged to explore more build options, now they need to follow through so there's 0 loss for trying out and experimenting with new builds.

quote:

1. Passive skill trees for each base class (Hunter, Mercenary, Mage)

This has been suggested 2+ times recently, with both being shut down by the devs since they said they will never consider passives ever existing again aside from cores. There was even a twitter reminder about it as well. This is really a shame because not having passives is hurting the game more than helping it, and refusing to implement them despite all the great ideas on the forums and the clear desire from the playerbase to have them in game is really just the devs kicking themselves in the shin.

Epic

Post #: 2

1/14/2015 17:27:10

Cadens Disciple
Member

@Exploding Penguin

Good points, thanks for reading.

In discrepancy, I didn't mean balance discrepancy between credit and varium. Just some perceived benefit to varium. I am one of the few veterans who agrees with the retrainable weapon system, as I have never allowed myself more than 2500 varium/character and remember the sheer impossibility of beating varium users throughout various stages in the game (Gamma Bot Mercs were untouchable for a while, and Enhancement was sheer hell). It does reduce weapons to just art in most cases, but what's the alternative?

I'm just trying to find a way to strengthen CH, I guess. I feel as though they've been left by the wayside with their only energy regeneration mechanic forcing at least a modicum of strength, no stat-boosting moves to increase their potency, limited inherent tankiness, lack of consistent healing mechanisms and limited offensive firepower to boot. But I'm getting off topic.

I'd love retrains to be free, but it's a feature I doubt will be implemented. Maybe 5 free retrains/day, then start costing?

I never heard that they won't even consider passive trees, which is a crying shame. The problem with the old passives is that the skill point investment was simply too damn efficient at any high level which crowded out other actives and further other builds; however, with the skill points discrete and everyone with the same passive investment/level I think they could really work.

Post #: 3

1/14/2015 18:23:12

Exploding Penguin
Moderator

CH is actually plenty strong right now IMO. However, it's built to be a very high skill-cap class with a lot of potential. People who can't use it well will make the class feel like utter garbage, but those who can will really give the class a lot of use.

Epic

Post #: 4

1/14/2015 20:01:31

Cadens Disciple
Member

Maybe this discussion should be moved to balance, but idk. CH's best attribute at the moment is its high sustained damage with above average energy regen and disruption to make the enemy fight on the CH's rotation instead of their own. In addition, the class as a whole has few hard counters.

However, it has mediocre single-turn damage, the worst ultimate, a lesser version of toxic grenade and no stat buffs or synergy between its nukes. The difficulty it takes to play the class has far greater rewards in the two best classes at the moment, which are in my opinion TLM and BM.

Post #: 5

1/14/2015 23:43:10

Exploding Penguin
Moderator

BM is strong even if you're bad at using it, and even stronger if you're good at it. If you're bad at TLM you will suck with it, and if you're good with TLM you can really get places. This is pretty much why BM is considered near broken right now.

CH is like TLM where unless you are very good at the class, it is hard to use it effectively aside from the bland strength builds that exist. The thing about CH is once you get ahead, you are very hard to shut down, and in many matchups a single EMP is all you need to establish this lead. However, hard counters completely destroy you and give you almost no chance to come back. BM is like this except they have a lot of reversal potential thanks to energy parasite always being relevant and %-based, so they essentially just do what CH does but is a lot safer.

CH can go for very high sustained damage, but I prefer the builds on it that cause it to always have relevance from a mindgame-based threat or just a complete shut-down skill. One of these is just classic high tech-focus that destroys builds on turn 1 with a massive EMP. Another one I used was a glass cannon support with high massacre. People either underestimate the massacre damage and die, or they're so scared of it that it makes it really easy to stick them in bad situations. At this point it's hard to shut down the CH and you'll just be forced on the defensive while they smash your face in.

Epic

Post #: 6

1/15/2015 1:54:17

Remorse
Member

Interesting ideas,

I too think that they need to utilize passive skills to achieve class identity, and bring back some variety.

Perhaps you would like to see my post before on passive skill trees with some passive skill ideas included:
http://forums2.battleon.com/f/tm.asp?m=21799153&mpage=1&key=�

I also made a thread about what changes they would need to do before adding a passive tree to make it possible:
http://forums2.battleon.com/f/tm.asp?m=21805953&mpage=1&key=�

< Message edited by Remorse -- 1/15/2015 2:01:43 >

Epic

Post #: 7

1/15/2015 20:34:54

Cadens Disciple
Member

@Remorse I love your ideas but not the execution- having these tiers that unlock, particularly with passives as strong as these, creates major power spikes at the tier levels that makes a level 19 beating a level 20+ much harder, bordering on impossibility. I really wish they would implement passive trees, and I'm working on my own set, but in my opinion they need to at least have 10-12 selectable passives to encourage more build diversity.

I think a large part of the reason the Devs refuse to consider separate passive trees is the sheer amount of work that it might take to implement and balance them. They are right about having passives mixed with actives in the same tree- they are far too cost effective with no strategy beyond a typically requisite 7+ point investment- but separate trees are an entirely different animal. However, if properly executed, I see no reason ED can't go huge. So many other games have passive trees for a reason, and I do think the Devs are just a little close-minded on this issue.

In my opinion, CH is underpowered because it has some of the most potential to outplay but takes far more skill than the "meta" builds on BM and TLM, which are at least its equals.

My tier list of classes atm:

Tier 1: BM, TLM
Tier 1.5: CH
Tier 2: BH, M
Tier 3: TM

Post #: 8

1/16/2015 13:46:13

The berserker killer
Member

1) % were pretty cool and I understand why you removed them for the individual players but the were really interesting to look at for factions who were winning dailys

2) show faction flag on char page and player rank

3) rank up screen everytime a player ranks up ( with ranks, levels or even actual ranks (emperor, etc))

4) A category that shows each factions players Wins for the days ( http://i45.tinypic.com/2njg10k.png )

5) Rank shops with rank armors that you can only access at that rank (Emperor, Warlord, Legend etc)

6) Faction HQ'S that upgrade when your faction levels up just like how your first home is a shack then you have to upgrade

7) Faction All-Time Kill Board, a Personal Faction Leaderboard that tracks the amount of wins that the players in your faction have done and shows what player did X amount of wins.

8) Having a Vendbot at your faction HQ

9) Faction window revamp to include 2 more categories. 1) 1v1 Wins today, 2) 2v2 Wins today

10) Let us fight Dage, Matrix, every other lvl 100 unbeatable boss. It's okay if theyre lvl 100 and extremely difficult/impossible. RPG games are about bragging rights.

11) Bring back FLags. It enhanced competition.

12) Note bot improvement. a good note improvement would be adding a scrolling option so that we aren't limited to a certain amount of messages. this way we dont have to put everything in small words, and be limited to text

13) Faction Daily Rewards
right now you get no rewards for doing dailies (solo, team, Juggernaut, WD)
the idea i have here is to reward players for doing dailies in factions.
these rewards would only go to the players of the winning faction.

Faction Daily Rewards: for the players
Credits: 2500
Personal Influence: 1000

WD Rewards: for the players
Credits: 5000
Personal Influence: 2500

14) Since Epicduel is a community I think some things to focus on would be "community" things that are very influential. Things such as a message board. This board should probably be in Central Station , by Oz, and what i imagine it being is literally a Board with Papers all over it. You will be able to click on the board and have two choices. Either "Post" or "View Posts". If an individual selects the "Post" button they will have three categories to choose from: "Looking for faction", "Looking for ally for NPC" and "Looking for Challenge Partner". They simply click on and for a fee (so the board isn't over crowded) they are allowed to post on the board.

For example, my Char name is Ghost God so if i choose "Looking for faction" and pay the fee then a post will be posted on the message board saying "Ghost God is looking for a faction! View Character Profile Here!" with a button linked to my char profile. Posts should probably have a 1 week time limit before being taken down however you could pay for a longer duration or simply repost. This will allow players to interact more and it'll be a simple fun thing for amusement.

If I were to click View Posts then I will be able to see a list of people who are either Looking for a faction, Looking for ally for NPC, Looking for Challenge Partner, or even a complete list of the "Did You Knows" that we see after every match.

15) Buyable NPCS to help with these impossible bosses. For a fee you can buy certain NPCS (Permanently) to help you in any boss fight you choose. There should also be a solo option for a hiher rating cheevo

16) Toggle option to show % for players and Faction leaders

17) Rewards for winning a champ not 2500 for everyplayer and 1k infl people will alt to win so to prevent this the faction that wins a 1v1 champ takes 100k credits and every player gets a % of this 100k based on the % of his wins
For example i did 100 wins my faction did 1k wins then i get 10% from the 100k this will allow people to play fairly to get credits for thier main accounts

18) boss win counter

19) pvp rewarding influence within battle

20) Pvp drops (broken weapons is a good example)

21)Friday power day since this is the day the majority of the player base is on due to no school.

22)Gifting system returned in a more balanced way where everyone can do it and possibly a dailly gift lb

If they would just do this then the game would be amazing for 4 months, easily

Epic

Post #: 9

1/16/2015 19:25:38

Exploding Penguin
Moderator

This is the tier list thread from a while back. It's fairly outdated from the recent TLM buffs, but right now TLM is really within the top 3 classes IMO. Mercenary is a lot lower than it was at the time of making the tier list mainly because of its counterbuilds showing up more in the meta. http://forums2.battleon.com/f/tm.asp?m=21847901

But yeah, unfortunately the staff have very clearly voiced their decision to never implement passives again aside from cores.

Epic	Post #: 10

1/17/2015 17:16:03

Cadens Disciple
Member

Honestly, my primary character at the moment is a TM (hopefully CH soon) and I consider myself a relatively skilled player (75% winrate atm) every single other class that has a similar skill level and level can beat me. As a TM, your focus build which gives you the options that allow you to outplay your opponents isn't tanky and doesn't have the damage, massive energy drain, consistent pressure, consistent energy regain or healing on hit that its counterparts in every single other class have, and is so susceptible to high pressure and strength builds that it isn't worth using. Strength mage is and always will be a joke by virtue of fire wave costing an additional 2 wasted skill points due to its location, support mage is only viable with field medic scaling off of support and the super tank dex/tech builds are highly predictable, easily shut down by BMs and CHs, and trapped by BHs who can force them into not using battery backup with their respective drains, and baiting the drains out with generator or piston punch only works once a game, not good enough to beat the high sustain BMs and BHs. TM is honestly trash.

@berserker killer

How about you trim your list down to 10 ideas all of which are very easily implemented. Let me see that list.

As much as I'm enjoying this discussion, can you please look a little more at the unlocked skill tree idea at the top? I feel it will be innately very imbalanced and want to hear your input.

< Message edited by Cadens Disciple -- 1/17/2015 17:18:37 >

Post #: 11

1/18/2015 3:06:29

Remorse
Member

quote:

@Remorse I love your ideas but not the execution- having these tiers that unlock, particularly with passives as strong as these, creates major power spikes at the tier levels that makes a level 19 beating a level 20+ much harder, bordering on impossibility. I really wish they would implement passive trees, and I'm working on my own set, but in my opinion they need to at least have 10-12 selectable passives to encourage more build diversity.

I agree their should be more then 9, it's just hard trying to think of many.

The power spikes would be high, but at the same time a lot of the passives I created hove both an upside and a major downside, and thus useful for only some builds.

Using this logic they could make a set off passives for each class with relatively low power spikes and instead larger diversity.

Epic	Post #: 12

1/18/2015 19:25:23

Cadens Disciple
Member

Ideally, you would have enough options so that people could specialize (Like a top tier passive that lowers FM cooldown by one but requires so much investment that you have to sacrifice much of either your offense or defense) while not penalizing those who want a jack of all trades build. Still working on mine.

Post #: 13

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