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Buff Abyss Bot

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3/25/2016 12:13:18   
The berserker killer
Member

 

 Abyss bot received a nerf after it became available to free players, which lowered the overall max amount of necrosis.

My suggestion is to buff the bot by granting it another turn of effect, hence extending it to 4 turns while keeping the previous nerf in-tact. This would restore power to the bot, especially by nullifying certain shields that render its effect nearly completely useless such as Plasma Shield, hybrid, and especially shadow arts.

When one really thinks about, there isn't a single bot in this game that is counterable by a skill except this one. So extending it to 4 turns may not necessarily solve the "counterable" effect of this bot, but its the simplest fix I can think of that will take the absolute minimal time and effort while utilizing the least amount of memory.

< Message edited by The berserker killer -- 3/25/2016 12:16:32 >
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 1
3/25/2016 15:25:10   
  Exploding Penguin
Moderator


 You're doing a weird comparison again, stating that the bot is weaker than other bots because it's the only one that can be countered by a skill. Whether or not it's countered by a skill while the other bots aren't is completely irrelevant because assault bot, which you stated isn't counterable by a skill, is just way worse for obvious reasons.

What I see in the bot is a debuff which gets countered by shields, like all other debuffs in the game are.
Epic  Post #: 2
3/25/2016 16:13:07   
The berserker killer
Member

 

 Ok then you can feel fee to disregard the comparison and only take into consideration the fact that ita counterable by other skills. It doesn't really matter to me, take your pick. If the way I suggest things offends you or bothers you in any sort of way then interpret it however you please.
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 3
3/25/2016 21:28:39   
  Exploding Penguin
Moderator


 I'm not offended nor do I take anything on the forums personally because it's a waste of my time and effort to. In the case that I do take it personally I later regret it because I realize how much of an idiot I am for doing so.

I'm just stating that your comparison is inaccurate and isn't a viable reasoning for the balance change you're asking for.

The fact that it's counterable by other skills still doesn't warrant that much. Turn-based games are all about checks and counters. The abyss bot is just more easily identified as being counterable because of how one-dimensional it is along with most other debuff skills. Pretty much anything in ED that isn't OP has a very consistent counter to it, it's just not as easy to identify since it's more of a two-dimensional counter that factors in some other things rather than "use x skill when opponent uses y skill" type of thing.

I don't think the bot needs a buff.

< Message edited by Exploding Penguin -- 3/25/2016 21:29:29 >
Epic  Post #: 4
3/25/2016 21:59:20   
The berserker killer
Member

 

 Ok great, thanks for the input!
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 5
3/26/2016 0:01:03   
racing.lo.mas
Member

I was also thiking about adding an extra turn to this bot. I support this.
The other bot which a "similar" core is BloodHawk, both takes some defense/resistance from the opponent.
Blood Hawk:
advantage:
-Dont allow target to use the armor core.
-Can give to you +120 for 3 turns (extra 360 damage).
-Can forces your target to use a shield.
Disadvantage:
-If the target has his armor distributed, you will just get an extra 60 per turn (180 max).
-It wont be so good if it takes 120 defense and most of your attacks are energy (anyway it wont be a problem, most of players have variety of attacks).

Black Abyss:
advantages:
-Takes the same amount for defense and resistance.
-You can use all attacks no matter the damage type.
-Wont be avoided with a shield.
disadvantages:
-You have to guess if you will be able to attack in the last turn.
-You might not be able to attack in the last turn of the core. You might lose the last attack when you have the highest advantage.
-First 2 turns dont worth too much.
-Doesnt add much damage.

I dont know you, but obviously I choose Blood Hawk.

Adding an extra turn or making the 3 turns more similar and higher can be enough.
Epic  Post #: 6
3/26/2016 10:18:37   
Altador987
Member

Not supported, as an avid user of the bot it's meant for strategy not an easy win. The first 2 turns don't do as much but you affect both defenses over time and still do more damage with each turn, if you don't get the last attack that's great planning on your opponent's part not a flaw in the bot, that's like saying the infernal android should never be deflected with its energy blast.

The difference in the hawks vs the abyss bot is that while the Hawk can strip you of your defenses for 3 solid turns you're making a complete gamble based off your opponent's defenses the plus side being that you strip them of their armor core as well while the bot takes away both at certain percentages each round making both defenses vulnerable.

The idea that a bot needs a buff because there are skills to overcome their abilities is ridiculous literally every bot has that same problem other than the assault bot and that's because it's literally a counter to debuffs. The point of the abyss bot is that you'll get access to at least one vulnerability OR you'll force them to waste mp on shields and/or shadow arts which is mp costly.
AQW Epic  Post #: 7
4/5/2016 17:11:07   
The berserker killer
Member

 

 @Altrador, no other bot has a 100% guaranteed counter to it other than this one. It's not supposed to guarantee an easy win but at the very least it can be not counterable (which can be done by at least extending the bot to 4 turns). Lets not necessarily compare bots, especially this one and hawk bot. Those two are nearly entirely different and are used for two entirely different purposes.
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 8
4/5/2016 17:28:16   
Mother1
Member

@TBK

Bio borg you can stick to range attacks/skills, and ranged based cores without using melee based attacks.
Bunny bot, use everything other than strike
Assault bot don't use debuffs
azreal borg don't use buffs unless it is Mineral armor hybrid armor or Plasma armor
Poison bot Field medic completely removes the poison's effect.

All these are 100% counters to other robots you claim don't have 100% counters.

Then there is also the bio beast aux which in turn put all robots on cooldown which is also another counter to robots seeing as it shuts down robots for 3 turns.
Epic  Post #: 9
4/5/2016 22:59:31   
The berserker killer
Member

 

 Bio Borg and Bunny Bot's counters still have the potential to make your opponent either skip a turn or be wary of what attacks they are using (hence forcing them to use some of their weaker attacks depending on the situation.

Assault bot... I don't see how this compares, nor does Azrael Borg.

As for Poison Bot that's a really good point, however this bot is completely reusable if we're doing the whole "compare bots" thing.

As for bio borg and bunny bot, those aren't really counters. Those are ways to work around the bots since they still have the potential to affect that targeted player in a huge way. As for your last remark... I don't even see why we're talking about the bio beast aux.
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 10
4/6/2016 17:40:26   
Altador987
Member

@TBK

There isn't a %100 guaranteed counter other than maybe the merc's hybrid armor which gives both defenses simultaneously, not to mention these "guaranteed counters" you speak have to actually have skills invested in them which in a Str user's case is rather pointless, and a tank user's case usually very minimal in at least one of the two defenses. Shadow arts isn't even the perfect counter as it only reduces incoming damage meaning that the increased damaged would be reduced by a percent however the damage is still more than would be without it.

The reason i specified the hawk bot is because they are in fact very close in relation as far as their special skills (i suppose you could stand to disagree).

There isn't a single bot in the game that doesn't have a counter other than possibly the pyro fly which is why the skill it takes is based randomly on the top three invested skills as a self counter.

You should also note that shadow arts, mineral armor, plasma armor ( i forget if there are anymore) all last 4 turns and would still negate your suggestion
AQW Epic  Post #: 11
4/7/2016 11:31:04   
The berserker killer
Member

 

 First off, wheres the constructive criticism? That's one thing we're really missing from Forums nowadays. It's easy to shoot down an idea, it's even easier to name a million reasons not to do something. But offering constructive criticism, which is supposed to be one of the main reasons we're here, just seems to be last on everyones list.

Secondly I guess I have to break it down a bit more for everyone so I will do so in bullets:

-Black Abyss Bot special specifically targets defense and resistance, for 3 turns. Not Dex/Tech, just defense and resistance.
- Black Abyss Bot special SLOWLY increases, starting from -30 def/res
- The majority of individuals distribute their def/res armor stats based on what is needed most (if they are not tanks). Meaning that it is more common to see something like 270-330 def and res on a high level player.
- All Classes have shields
- All classes have at least one shield that can INSTANTLY increase their def/res by at least 100 points at level 1
- All Classes have a secondary shield that can increase their def/res too, some of which have the potential to once again increase their def/res by 100 points
- Black Abyss special has been nerfed to max out at around - 100-120 def/res after 3 turns
- All of these shields last a minimum of 3 turns

Now for constructive criticism, instead of finding every reason not to give this bot a buff, maybe instead of extending this bot to 4 turns we can actually just keep it 3 and allow it to affect ones Dexterity and Technology. Hence extending it's effectiveness to affect skills and def/res and making it unable to be countered easily while making the name "Necrosis" more fitting . And, once again, this bots not similar to hawk bot. Hawk bot instantly strips away ones armor, which is it's primary use in the minds of many-all players
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 12
4/7/2016 15:53:53   
Mother1
Member

@ TBK

Constructive criticism comes in two forms. Positive and negative. Just because people don't agree with your idea doesn't mean they aren't giving you constructive criticism. Now if they were just outright flaming you calling you names, and insulting you then yeah that wouldn't be constructive. However pointing out what they feel is wrong with a suggestion and even explaining why they feel it isn't a good idea in an informative but not insulting way is one of the ways to voice thoughts towards an idea.

So far in this thread no one has actually gone to the flaming and possibly insulting way of not agreeing with you. People voiced how they felt this idea was either good, bad, how it could possibly be improved, how it could cause problems in the present and future, or in my other posts case points to try and prove a statement wrong.

This is a forum and I believe you already know this but, not everyone is going to agree with you or everyone else. Plus as we both know the staff does lurk and read suggestions, and hearing everyone's thoughts and views on how things a change could either help or cause problems in turn helps the staff to avoid certain pit falls that can cause issues later.

Personally myself I feel this isn't a good change for the soul reason that as Exploding penguin mentioned almost everything in the game that isn't broken or OP has some way to get around it and trying to make this bot have no counters is just what the bot would need to become broken then thrown to the nerfing table later on.


Epic  Post #: 13
4/7/2016 18:56:39   
Altador987
Member

@TBK

It seems on the hawk and abyss we will simply have to agree to disagree, however let's go with your original suggestion of 4 turns:

In this case are we assuming the percentages would still max around 100 res/def points? Also i don't really see how that helps the effectiveness of the bot because with this notion in mind all anyone has to do is wait a turn and then shield in order to negate the more serious necrosis effects not to mention the actual buffs (technician, and whatever the dex is called i forget) last at least 4 turns anyway.

As to your bullet of shields lasting 3 turns you forget the armors which last 4 to 5 negating your argument.

Personally i'm quite fond of the way the bot works it's actually one of my favorites due to the amount of strategy needed and while i admit i wouldn't use it for every class like say the gamma bot, or infernal android i think the effectiveness of the bot is quite sufficient. Or at the very least i don't see adding another turn as substantial and equitable buff to it.
AQW Epic  Post #: 14
4/11/2016 20:37:57   
The berserker killer
Member

 

 For criticism to be constructive it must be able to serve a useful purpose into reaching a conclusion. BY simply stating everything that's wrong with a suggestion and offering no alternative we're not getting anywhere since, in actuality, there are a million reasons not to do something. You're never going to find the perfect idea. So ones exclusion, based on the premise that an idea is flawed, is also synchronously and ironically flawed.

I know not everyone has to agree with me. I'm not asking for that or anything in the sense. I'm asking for us to break away from our stupid ways of excluding ideas based on any one of the million reasons not to implement something and try to actually find an even ground. Lmao I mean look at assault bot. Everyone knows it's one of the most underused and underpowered bots in the game, especially one of the most useless bots in the game, yet individuals on forums are the same ones who will find a million reasons not to buff that bot. We're never going to evolve this way. We're never going to become a better game if shooting down ideas, based on automatic assumption that it has some sort of flaw and calling that a twisted form of Constructive Criticism, is what we've become.

@Altrador: You're missing a point. It is imperative to look at that "buff" from both sides. If the bot were to affect technology and dexterity, as opposed to defense and resistance, it would ultimately be affecting many skills in the skill tree, your gun damage, your bot damage, including your defense and resistance. One simple shield, nor two, will be able to completely counter that effect.

quote:

- All of these shields last a minimum of 3 turns
Key word: Minimum.


Edit: I would like to offer an alternative suggestion. Rather than extending it a turn, allow the bot to debuff your enemies stats(Str, dex, tech, and support) by an increasing amount of 20% of each stat for 3 turns.

< Message edited by The berserker killer -- 4/11/2016 20:39:54 >
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 15
4/12/2016 3:14:59   
Silver Sky Magician
Member


 The relevant criterion to decide whether something should be buffed is whether it is currently underpowered, not whether it has disadvantages unique to it. In other words, one has to prove that Black Abyss's Necrosis is underpowered, as a result of being counterable by skills or otherwise, to justify a buff. I don't really think I've seen that argument here.

Furthermore, the argument can be made that Black Abyss's Necrosis is the only skill that can counter Shadow Arts and Hybrid Armour, as well as Mineral and Plasma Armour iirc since I don't think Azrael's affects those. This gives Necrosis a unique and valuable niche.

Having a bot nerf stats is an interesting idea, but it is markedly distinct from Necrosis's current concept despite functional similarities, just like Blood Hawk and Black Abyss are two very tactically different bots. I'd prefer to reserve that idea for future bots or cores.
Post #: 16
4/12/2016 8:50:42   
Altador987
Member

@The Beserker Killer

I'm not sure you understand what constructive criticism actually is, as you keep mentioning an alternative. Constructive criticism doesn't necessarily mean I agree with you it simply means I provide an answer and give you reasons as to my answer which allows you to then either see my point of view OR present a further argument to my statement.

In my original statement I was specifically stating that I don't think the Abyss bot needs a buff at all... the understood message is that i would not need to respond with an alternative because I don't see an alternative being necessary. I noticed you tried to compliment me on my other posts in suggestions about what you thought was constructive criticism when the reality is I just so happened to see that the core mentioned may in fact need some altering.

You may see my view as useless however that would simply be due to my opposition on your standpoint rather than lack of constructive criticism.


As to your example of the buff on the Assault bot, I'd assume the reason the buff has been shot down is because the problem is really with Malfunction (not so much for smoke) than the use of the bot itself, due to most build relying heavily on tech and those that use malf either don't really need it or have ways around it being useless. The assault bot COULD be buffed but what would be the result and what uniqueness would it retain?

As to your suggestion i wouldn't mind seeing a new bot with a skill like that, however personally i'd prefer if the abyss bot remain untouched as i think it's purpose serves very well both based on personal use as well as based on use of players. I'd argue it's the second most used bot in the game.
AQW Epic  Post #: 17
4/12/2016 11:46:59   
The berserker killer
Member

 

 Thanks for your input
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 18
4/12/2016 17:13:38   
Altador987
Member

you're welcome
AQW Epic  Post #: 19
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