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4/19/2021 4:09:22   
joglaze
Member

Hi, so I was just wondering about the Epoch classes. Since UW received a pretty big nerf overall, is it less worth to get than the other Epoch Armors? It has a pretty permanent -30 All which I thought would be lessened, but I guess it's going to remain that way. Not to mention it just does less damage overall since it gets -Boost and -Avoidance. Would Dragonbyte Epoch be better than UW Epoch?

< Message edited by joglaze -- 4/19/2021 4:10:06 >
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 1
4/19/2021 4:30:00   
Dratomos
Helpful!


 For general questing, Dragonbyte Epoch is much better.

For bosses, UWE is still a very strong class, if not one of the best classes. It takes 30 instances of double turns before it has -30 All, -30 Boost and -60 Avoidance. Sure, those figures sound very big, but usually UWE has defeated the boss by then.

UWE can still defeat Inevitable Equiblirium and Pandora EX, but it's not so braindead class anymore. And while the nerf might sound big, before that UWE was so good it could defeat any boss or duo without that much thinking about their mechanics.
DF AQW  Post #: 2
4/19/2021 5:49:35   
TFS
Helpful!


 Even with the nerfs, UWE is still one of the best classes in the game (for boss fights) by a pretty sizable margin, roughly matching Eternal Epoch in strength. DragonByte Epoch, on the other hand, is the worst of the Epochs for boss fights (though that's not saying much as it's still really good).
For just questing/farming it's reversed; DragonByte is the best Epoch while UWE and EE are both pretty bad.

It's also worth noting that it takes a minimum of 35 turns to reach -30 All resistance on UWE; if you haven't been able to end the fight by then (or at least be about to) on a class that does as much damage as UWE, then you've probably got bigger problems to worry about.

< Message edited by TFS -- 4/19/2021 5:50:19 >
DF  Post #: 3
5/21/2021 6:21:09   
DragonKeeper
Member

Can the Underworld Epoch still go 100 rounds with Akira?

I know the Doomknight can because I have watched YouTube videos of it. I have also seen that SnugglePanda can last 100 rounds with Akira.

If UWE cannot do it then I feel that it does not deserve such a high ranking on the TFS class tier list.

That list was one of the reasons I purchased the UWE.

Personally, I do not like the message about the eraglass turning and the resistance being "sapped". It took many hours and hours of grinding to acquire defender medals in order to purchase the all resist defender's gear. It is highly irritating to see stat decay in the UWE.

The UWE armor looks awesome with its hood, scythe, and hourglass cape. But, it is no longer a super-tank.

DF  Post #: 4
5/21/2021 14:35:24   
AstralCodex
Member

No, it probably cannot.

That being said, going to 100 Akira is not an accurate measure of class power. Instead, it's simply a check if your class can Darkness stack or MPM stack. Current UWE can do neither due to the passive, but still excel at the majority of modern challenge fights, where both resistance stack and MPM stack are generally punished.

To labor the point, Paladin certainly can do 100 Akira, as can DeathKnight, by using their healing passives and resistance stacking. Pyromancer stomps Akira as well thanks to its passive. More importantly, every class that loops blinds or small MPM shields can do 100 Akira, by using MPM stack. This includes Basepoch, EE, CDE, and DBE. It also includes Pirate, Kathool Adept, Ninja, and even Gnome Personal Steamtank. And no one thinks that GPS is a good class.

Because Akira has so little crit, even BPD shields work vs him. This means even classes like AEXo, Ascendant, Necromancer, Ice Bound Revenant, Base Rogue, Guardian, and DragonRogue should have little problem doing 100 Akira, with some combination of MPM stacking blinds/small shields and using their BPD shields. (Though DR and IBR might have mana issues.)

To put it another way, Akira isn't like a modern fight. It gets cheesed by resistance stacking and MPM stacking, which lets basically any class do him. Both res stack and MPM stack are completely uninteractive strategies that Verly has taken pains to try to make unviable (or at least less cheesy) in modern fights. So the failure of UWE to do 100 Akira is not a real mark against the class, because it doesn't indicate its unviability in the modern challenge fights that TFS ranks the classes against.
DF  Post #: 5
5/22/2021 2:00:20   
DragonKeeper
Member

Thank you for the helpful feedback Astral Codex.

I almost agree with you; while resistance stacking alone is not a complete strategy in itself, it is still very necessary for many, if not all, Inn fights.

I feel that the Akira challenge is still relevant, even though it is not the only criteria one should use to determine the tier level that a class belongs in. Akira's DOTs can still bite some big chunks out of a player's HP bar even with extra darkness resistance stacking.

Paladin, Pyromancer, and Deathknight are great tank classes that can last a long time for many battles. Winning Inn fights is also not the best way to judge the best classes. You have made videos of Chickencow Lord defeating the Inevitable Equilibrium. I also remember watching your video of the GPS beating Drahir'Dolaas. With gear swapping expertise, it seems that almost any class can beat some of the hardest Inn fights.

Gear swap appears to be the preferred method of strategizing for the Inn. One of the first Inn fights is the Siofra challenge which requires continual weapon element swapping. At least that challenge is easy to keep up with.

I do not like gear swap. I wish there was a fully self contained armor that did not require excessive gear swapping. UWE was close to that before it was nerfed. Now I think I will put the UWE bracer in the bank and focus more on learning the Eternal Epoch. EE does not have the awesome look of the UWE but I think it is better with regards to winning Inn fights if it can survive the initial set-up time needed to get going full steam.

Is there no armor that lets one win by attrition? The game seems to be gravitating towards more and more strategy, and such strategy involves the tediousness of multiple complex gear swaps.

< Message edited by DragonKeeper -- 5/22/2021 2:10:35 >
DF  Post #: 6
5/22/2021 2:39:02   
Dratomos
Helpful!


 Gear swapping certainly isn't a requirement in the challenges. I myself don't do it at all or very rarely and have managed to defeat all challenges. It makes the fight easier sure, but it's not requirement. Some players just use it instead of Hero's Diet or to see if challenge can be defeated without using any or only 2 potions. I mainly use Epoch myself and it doesn't require gear swapping to be effective.

And before the "nerf", UWE was an OP class that was fully self contained armor (as most of the classes still are IMO) that could easily defeat every challenge without any thought.

EE is still a class that doesn't require you to gear-swap, just have high All and you are good to go. It is currently better than UWE, but both are still great choices.

And I myself don't count Akira as any kind of measure of classes. It's too old for that.

< Message edited by Dratomos -- 5/22/2021 2:50:34 >
DF AQW  Post #: 7
5/22/2021 7:17:52   
DragonKeeper
Member

quote:

And before the "nerf", UWE was an OP class that was fully self contained armor (as most of the classes still are IMO) that could easily defeat every challenge without any thought.


Hello Dratomos, thanks for your reply.

A fully self contained armor does not rely on external items. Pre-nerfed UWE was close to that I think. Chickencow Lord is definitely not a fully self contained armor, yet, with external items and strategy it can defeat the Inevitable Equilibrium challenge.

I am not going to try IE with CCL though because it takes too much work, and stress, and struggle, and luck. My short term memory is not that great where I can memorize the endgame wiki rotations in order to perfectly match the shield harmonics and other factors to derive a perfect strategy.

The Frostscythe III is an extremely valuable prize but it was extremely difficult for me to acquire. I consider myself lucky to have barely won that fight by the skin of my teeth. The Ice and Dragons Challenge was very hard for me. I still need to upgrade my Vilmor Helm I to the Vilmor Helm III. Maybe someday I will get the nerve to try again.





< Message edited by DragonKeeper -- 5/22/2021 7:21:58 >
DF  Post #: 8
5/22/2021 18:19:34   
AstralCodex
Member

quote:

Paladin, Pyromancer, and Deathknight are great tank classes that can last a long time for many battles. Winning Inn fights is also not the best way to judge the best classes.


Yes, it's not necessarily the best way, but given TFS's class tier list ranks classes based on Inn Challenge Viability, it makes little sense to complain that UWE can struggle vs a niche, outside of inn, optional challenge.
DF  Post #: 9
5/22/2021 18:35:27   
DragonKeeper
Member

quote:

Yes, it's not necessarily the best way, but given TFS's class tier list ranks classes based on Inn Challenge Viability, it makes little sense to complain that UWE can struggle vs a niche, outside of inn, optional challenge.


If a class is excellent at Inn challenges then that should translate into also being superior at all challenges, because the Inn is understood to be much more difficult than outside of the Inn. It seems to me that the UWE is no longer the great class it once was. It now has a significant weakness that it previously did not have. I am just an unhappy customer, that is all.
DF  Post #: 10
5/22/2021 18:53:27   
Laeon val Observis
Member
 

 Your bias is starting to show. If UWE would be the ultimate class for Inn, how come I have yet to see it used in the latest Inn battles? The Inn is way too diverse to make one class superior above all others. And frankly, UWE was becoming DF's equivalent of AQW's Void HighLord (VHL), and we don't want that to happen now, do we?

< Message edited by Laeon val Observis -- 5/22/2021 18:55:18 >
DF AQW  Post #: 11
5/22/2021 19:18:41   
DragonKeeper
Member

quote:

Your bias is starting to show. If UWE would be the ultimate class for Inn, how come I have yet to see it used in the latest Inn battles? The Inn is way too diverse to make one class superior above all others. And frankly, UWE was becoming DF's equivalent of AQW's Void HighLord (VHL), and we don't want that to happen now, do we?


Hello Laeon val Observis, thanks for your reply.

You could be right. I think I may have unrealistic expectations. If a class is too good then it becomes a game-breaker which means it is not really that good. I still do not like stat decay in the UWE, but I have only had a Dragon Amulet for about a year so I still have much to learn about what is good or bad.
DF  Post #: 12
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