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2/7/2022 19:43:37   
Sapphire
Banned


 Hollow posted in the design notes up top.


I just wanted to say that the approach with this is an outstanding decision. Taking a 40,000 foot view as they say, and back-tracking to fix some things so that the game progresses to a much better place for the future is the right call. Not only is it the right call for classes, but for all of the aspects of the game.

Another example->Why let a bug sit for weeks or months? Fix it now at release time or soon after so as to not upset players who become used to it. (dragonlord weapons)

I would also encourage staff to evaluate class armors, and also subrace armors, as compared to any everyday regular armor as well as the yearly Mastercraft set that gets the FSB.

Taking on a 40,000 foot view, I started playing this game in 2006. It's been some years with a ton of playing and other years of just dabbling in it. But I have never understood why the game diverged away from a central class-system and more towards what I'll call randomness. It sounds like there is a renewed emphasis on the class system, and this will be fantastic. I praise this whole-heartedly and then some.

BUT, class armors, and subrace armors as well, cannot make other options completely obsolete. There are only likely around 5ish armors that are even worth using ouitside of classes and subraces, and I would say this includes the variants of bard of war, bloodmage, zerker stuff, and Tempest. You might throw in doomlight armors or blocking focused stuff, although blocking meta in AQ needs addressed too. Everything else is simply just beneath class/subrace.

While I think the class and subrace system should have always been and hopefully is moving towards the core of the game, how can we ensure other armors remain partially desireable? I said it elsewhere, but I would like to take the time to tap staff on the shoulder with at least 1 idea.
Class/subrace armors = super compression. So the damage and effects contained within, depending on the specifics of the abilities, need to take compression penalties where normal stuff does not. Giving access to 20 skills (for tier 3) should not be having, as a random example, the same status potency for an ability as an armor that doesn't have access to 20 abilities. As an example, we have paladin and Necromancer and we have Paladin rider and Necromancer Cavalry. The latter takes skills from the former, at *the same* potency, but the latter gets 2 skills and the former gets 20. The class armor should have a reduced potency, even if a small one, to allow the rider/cavalry armors to at least motivate players to buy and use them, or the creation of said armors ends up mostly a waste of staff's ever so more and more precious time. And as time and manpower diminishes and the size of the game grows and hopefully for years to come, going back to "correct" something that one day might be viewed as an issue when today it wasn't, will increasingly be more and more difficult to rectify.

And this 40,000 foot view is simply one example.


At the end of the day, I appreciate the direction with class armors and look forward to the upcoming years for AQ. Thanks staff for the hard work.



< Message edited by SapphireCatalyst2021 -- 2/7/2022 20:58:19 >
Post #: 1
2/7/2022 20:39:51   
Kilvakar
Member

I'm extremely happy to hear this latest announcement! I started playing in 2007 (so a year after SapphireCatalyst), and I too was very sad to see classes fall out of use in favor of the "equip best mastercraft armor and weapon for each element, spam the armor's skill or cast your strongest spell until you win" playstyle that became the meta for at least the last 6-8 years. I've been calling for class revamps and more classes (Seriously, Paxia classes when? Lol!) every couple of years for almost a decade at this point!

So to say I'm ecstatic to see this announcement is a huge understatement! I would personally like it if you could use class armors, particularly Tier 3 armors like Paladin, Necro, and Archmage, regularly at max level, and not just compression armors. I'd like to be able to beat most enemies as an Archmage without needing to swap to whatever GGB or Frostval armor is at the top of the meta except in special cases such as Void bosses or challenge bosses. That's the point of the class system, it actually lets you roleplay your character rather than just constantly swapping armor and weapons before each battle because you'll get one-shot if you don't. This is what I loved about playing AQ back in the day. Other than the Devourer Saga, which was just starting out at the time, the story behind each class and the roleplaying aspect of training to master the ones I liked were what really left a lasting impression on me and made AQ a part of my life, if sometimes off and on, for the last 15 years.

After seeing the amazing work that the current AQ staff have done on the subraces and Tier 3 classes, I have complete faith that when Archmage finally does come, it's going to be amazing! But honestly, seeing all the other classes I loved so much get updated after all these years is going to be just as amazing! I can't wait to be able to battle as a Wizard, Pirate, Dragonslayer and Dracomancer again, along with all the other classes!

And just as a side note, I know it's hard to say goodbye (metaphorically) to the great staff members who came before, but I'm glad that the old rule of "we don't touch a former staff member's unfinished work" rule has been put out to pasture at long last. I know there are plans to revisit old plots like the Chessmaster Saga, but this also gives me hope that perhaps other old, forgotten plot threads might get picked up again. Perhaps even a true resolution to the Truphma Saga? Just throwing that out there ;)
AQ  Post #: 2
2/7/2022 21:20:00   
PD
Member
 

 I'm glad AQ is putting more effort to flesh out the early game design. As I've said numerous times It's well known that the early game is one of the worst aspects of AQ and many players actively try to avoid even experiencing it. Previously by overcapping so they wouldn't even have to play it and other weird tricks (which is now impossible so people have to actually play it.) My biggest hope with all of this is that these re-vamped classes will make the early game experience much more consistent. A couple factors which make class questing currently one of the worst experiences AQ has to offer for:

1. Outdated roll system which is extremely oppressive early on. Stat training is un-affordable early on which you need a high amount of if you want a reasonable chance of passing class quests. Pass thresholds are also very high which means there's good chance you have to play a level multiple times to pass if you get unlucky.
2. Outdated scaling system which adds more oppressiveness as you have to often fight enemies much stronger than yourself.
3. Outdated quest design which favors certain builds (tanky or nuke builds) over other types as they tend to favor builds that can either survive many battles without heals or quickly end them to conserve the amount of healing you need. This means you have to divert valuable points into END or MAINSTAT which further makes point 1 harder. I'm reminded that Necromancer quest rolls don't need rolls to pass, only get bonuses. I think especially early on this type of forgiving design should be given to lower level players to gradually ease them into a game which only gets harder as you level up.

The progression pipeline upwards, equipment wise is apparent with the gaps that exist for coverage and playstyles. Hopefully revamps of classes will create said pipeline so that players will have more options leveling up than they do right now.
Post #: 3
2/7/2022 21:52:40   
  Lorekeeper
And Pun-isher

 

 When bugs go unaddressed for an extended amount of time, it's not a matter of active design direction or them being specifically neglected. As much as we'd like to catch and tackle all of them immediately, the simple answer is that such wait periods are a matter of time limitations. Kam and IMR have rather a lot on their plates.
Post #: 4
2/7/2022 22:09:51   
Zennistrad
Member

I'm very interested in seeing how Master class armors for T1 armors will end up being balanced. The skills for T1 classes are no doubt going to be simplified compared to higher tiers and it'll be interesting seeing how you'd make the capstone abilities useful at max level without being overpowered for low levels.

< Message edited by Zennistrad -- 2/7/2022 22:17:14 >
AQ  Post #: 5
2/7/2022 22:37:20   
GwenMay
Member

After thinking it over, I think I prefer "master classes" to Archmage, at least for now. The mage overlap problem is significant, and the proposed "Master Class" system will enable support for all sorts of builds/playstyles and go a long way to making nonT3 classes worthwhile in AQ.

Also, "Master Dracomancer" is super hype and I literally cannot wait for it. I need it now. Thank you.
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 6
2/7/2022 23:07:16   
PD
Member
 

 One other thing I hope that comes out of this all - It's widely agreed that in the early game, playing Mage gives you the easiest experience. I'm hoping that with this class update, that there will then be reason to play Warrior/Ranger earlier on. With this set of updates the way to play warrior/ranger will hopefully be much more straightforward than what it is now. Wizard and Mage for that matter are probably the most unbalanced classes that skew the experience of the early game towards mages. I hope these changes go into leveling the playing field.

When these things start to come out, I will definitely play on my other characters to see how it goes and hopefully get the most accurate picture of how good or not they are at the point at which they are intended to be used for.
Post #: 7
2/8/2022 1:05:44   
Zennistrad
Member

quote:

The mage overlap problem is significant, and the proposed "Master Class" system will enable support for all sorts of builds/playstyles and go a long way to making nonT3 classes worthwhile in AQ.


The Master Beastmaster armor is definitely the one I'm looking forward to. I'm a big fan of Blue Mages (no, not Warlic, the Final Fantasy one) and being able to "copy" a monster's attack is easily the coolest mechanic to come from any AQ armor, period.
AQ  Post #: 8
2/8/2022 5:02:19   
CH4OT1C!
Member

I think that this was the right decision under the circumstances. The staff were caught in a difficult situation with Wizard and Mage potentially stepping on the toes of Archmage. Compounding the problem was Archmage being a Mage-oriented class, when they could already use Necromancer and Paladin in some ways. Going back on this decision was the right choice, even in spite of the risk it may pose in damaging the trust of players who had been burned by Archmage delays in the past. From my perspective: I've waited a decade, I can wait another.

With that said, it does slightly irk me that the post phrased it as "we're not quite ready to end the meme". It's good that some concrete conditions have been provided but, make no mistake, this post clearly indicates that it won't be a short delay. At least three separate classes are going to be added/updated before Archmage as a result of this change: Archer, Mage, and Wizard. Even making the incredibly unrealistic assumption that a Tier 3 class is the equivalent labour of two Tier 2 and four Tier 3 classes, Archmage won't be around for another year at bare minimum. In this scenario, Archer, Mage and Wizard are all updated this year and that Archmage is released immediately afterwards. However, this is incredibly unrealistic. For one, required labour doesn't scale in this way. For two, this would be even more heavily biased towards Mage builds than the previous scenario. More realistically, this is going to be a delay of several years. That certainly doesn't fit the description of "not quite ready", and I think we should be realistic on that.

I'm somewhat curious about the releases this year. It has been discussed that Mages weren't going to receive too much attention in regular quest rewards as Necromancer and Archmage were being released in order to focus on other builds. Since this isn't happening now, I wonder if that will result in a change in position.
AQ  Post #: 9
2/8/2022 5:22:51   
Sapphire
Banned


 In my opinion, if QoL is a big focus this year, than the traditional weekly release update schedule must be altered until QoL plans begin to be crossed off the list in quick fashion. Just as you mentioned, it occurred to me this might potentially drag out. It shouldn't. Going back and rebuilding some foundational aspects of the game, which is what this is, should be priority on the planned docket in 2022. Maybe due to time and staff limitations this will be impossible, but I honestly think there needs to be way more class revamps than 2 or 3 this year given the big picture. A class revamp needs to be every single month. Maybe you even do 2 in 1 month for the tier 1's, and then maybe 1 per month for tier 2's and this can build you towards an Archmage for 2023 rather than 2033. This looking back to look ahead decision is a great idea, but only if an urgency is apart of the 2022 planning for AQ.

I would personally be happy with the 2022 year if many of what we would traditionally see for several weekly releases were outright scrapped in favor of this project. Considering the master class idea, everyone no matter their build or playstyle may very well get something very nice at some point. We can't be here in 2023 and only a couple classes were revamped in 2022.
Post #: 10
2/8/2022 7:19:09   
Biokirkby
Member

Classes are mostly going to be balanced by title limitations. This means we can only have one full class, and therefore seven or so elements where we can't have a full class, making armours much more valuable.
DF AQW  Post #: 11
2/8/2022 14:14:40   
Lord Markov
Member

Overall I think this is a great move from the staff. I wasn't too big a fan of how Archmage was slated to be released right after Necromancer, effectively giving mages two dedicated tier 3 classes with a third that was still useful in many ways (Paladin), while leaving all other builds without major class support. Paladin is enough of a generalist most builds and playstyles can use it reasonably effectively, but it doesn't provide quite the same level of support as Necromancer does to mages. While items like H-Series can help with those pains, ultimately a single standard armor just can't compete with the options that a 20-skill tier 3 class armor provides.

With that in mind, I welcome the pivot towards supporting other builds, particularly Rangers who have been suffering from a combined lack of build identity due to the current stat system and a class to call their own. I want to thank the staff for taking player feedback regarding these issues into account and shifting to address these concerns, which was not necessarily an easy thing to do after "re-announcing" Archmage. I look forward to seeing what this year holds!
AQ  Post #: 12
2/8/2022 15:21:22   
Noremak Soothsayer
Member

I'm just gonna copy pasta what I said in the other thread.

We have to avoid having all class armor inventories due to being broken. Either we have a mini version masterclass armor or tighter class title restrictions.

I favor class title restrictions and in general, dislike the tiering system. The tiering system makes sense when there's a natural progression (mage > Wizard > Archmage). It doesn't make sense when classes like vampire hunter, dragonslayer, and dracomancer don't fit as there's no next step. To add insult to injury, all the time and effort just seems wasted on revamping anything tier 2 (or tier 1) when you're going to outlevel it and quickly. Early game (levels 1-45) is kinda slow, mid game goes really fast (lvl 45-75), and high levels ( lvl 75 and up) is a crawl and where you'll stay. At the current stage, it feels like I get stuck in paladin armor and can't play with anything else. Level scaling classes should be the norm. Let me play as the class I want regardless of level.
Post #: 13
2/8/2022 20:16:00   
Sapphire
Banned


 The tiering system problem is somewhat alleviated through the master class idea. So all classes will have a version that scales all the way to end-game. It's a nice compromise as it doesn't completely change tradition but includes all. You will be able to play whatever class regardless of level now. A couple of caveats will be the tiers are 5 skills at 1, 10 at 2, and 20 at 3 so the versatility will be somewhat reduced but you can still use them. Also, I'm sure there will be some sort of restrictions based on "If you're class A, only some skills are available for Class B" type thing.


And wow, imagine beastmaster, and imagine 2 pets or even 2 pets and 2 guests, both different, out at once....only can dream!

< Message edited by SapphireCatalyst2021 -- 2/9/2022 0:40:16 >
Post #: 14
2/9/2022 1:14:01   
Bannished Rogue
Member


 I believe it to be relevant to unearth the contents of the discussion I made in foresight of this realtive circumstance:

This isn't intended to be a "which class will/should be revamped next".
More so my thought process of how the classes should be, based on tier:

~Post snipped. No need to copy and paste it here, the snipped content can easily be read from the link you courteously provided. ~Anim

< Message edited by AnimalKing -- 2/9/2022 14:40:08 >
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 15
2/9/2022 18:12:22   
.*. .*. .*.
Pfft hahaha!


 Hmm...these news makes me both happy and worried at the same time.

It is great news in regards to all classes which have collected dust for so many years and I am thrilled that Archer/Ranger will finally be released. I remember it was promoted on the home page +15 years ago, and then it suddenly vanished and was forgotten. I am even considering starting a new toon, just as a tribute to this class alone.

What makes me worried is, what is the estimated and realistic timeline to implement this humongous project? As already pointed out by Broccoli, the devourer saga revamp has been going on for a while and this will delay it even further.

Is something else going to be put on the back burner?

How will this impact weekly releases or will there be a change and maybe only have 2 releases per month instead, just to let the staff have more time on their hands?

What is currently the main focus for the staff to implement?
I believe it would be wise to take a look at all stats and make them as balanced as possible before even starting to revamp the classes.
This could potentially lead to more balanced skills and the staff would not have to nerf or buff skills afterwards, and instead use their precious time on something else.

Regarding classes I am hoping that if you have a class title, it will make other class armours unusable.
The reason why, is because I am not fond of the idea that class armours should replace regular armours.
If there will be no class title limit, then surely there will have to be some downside to using class armours over a regular armour, because what will be incentive of using a regular armour over class armour?

Also I would be very happy if the tier 2-3 classes, would not let you use all 10-20 skills, but instead you would have certain amount of class points to allocate to unlock their full potential, but definitely not enough class points to maximise all 10-20 skills.

As for Archmage, CH4OT1C! summed it up perfectly, I can also wait another decade.
I am curious as to which NPC will be the class trainer for Archmage, could it be Kalanyr, Beleqwaya or someone else?

This is a direct question to the staff, is there anything we players can do to help you in the process?
I think it would be fantastic if we could contribute to ease/reduce your burden somehow.

Anyhow, I hope that I have not upset anyone with my post, I am just curious as to how all of this will pan out.
I hoping for the best possibly outcome for the players and staff.
Post #: 16
2/15/2022 17:36:39   
Legendario1
Member

I would be happy with 2 releases a month while they're updating. Heck, I get far more excited for updates than weekly quest or item releases. I'd wait a month or two even.
AQ  Post #: 17
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