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=AQ= Shadowstalker & Devoured Earth Sets Feedback

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2/7/2023 12:05:05   
  Lorekeeper
And Pun-isher

 

 This discussion was taking over the thread for this week's release, so let's move it here. Changes to these items are still under review, especially as we're aware that the token donation set wound up feeling way too resource hungry, so we're interested in having a central source of feedback about the items. However, because of how hostile this discussion grew, both in terms of general assumptions and attacks between players, please read the following review of said discussion before posting. In addition, bear in mind the board rules when posting. The points on constructive criticism were broken one too many times during the thread, so let's be friendlier to fellow users this time.



We would need to be assuming an imaginary scenario in which no Shadow or Shifter bosses exist in order to assert that the FSB retains no worth. I also have a standing proposal to increase the gold donation set's value by creating a combined category for Shadows, Shifters, and all future monsters with similar seeking. Shadows may have played out their role in the story, but they have a place in other upcoming content.

As to the point that the items have no worth whatsoever, or that they're only usable at all against a few bosses is a degree of hyperbole and extrapolation of preference to general quality beyond what we can reasonably discuss with. The point would require them to be individually worthless and undesirable save for the FSB, when all of them have clear use cases, and the FSB ensures that they are still worth using against the specific enemies in this category whose original design normally countered Darkness or Harm. In short, the entire point of the FSB is to ensure that the strongest enemies in the trigger category don't automatically shut down the items meant to trigger on them by virtue of having hidden low Harm resistances, because the set would ONLY be good against standard mobs without it. That functionality remains. So does that of the individual items. There is too wide of a gulf to casually dismiss between an item being 'literally useless' (Read: Having no use cases whatsoever) and having a clear use while not being a better version of/synergizing with Bloodzerkers. This is already an uncompromising deterrent to discussion in the best of days, but especially inapplicable when these items are introducing the Eclipsed status and thus gaining a use outside of their triggered category as well.
As of general nuking, please remember that soft damage caps are not the same as hard damage caps, they are diminishing returns with a variable clawback per boss rather than complete cutoffs. The latter are very rare. More damage does indeed matter against the former, it's just a deterrent against burning all resources in an attempt to score the same one-turn kill one might get against a common frogzard.

Furthermore, this isn't an arbitrary nerf regardless of how frequently nerfs are regarded as such. That's why it was called this rather than a bug fix: There was no technical error, but a descriptive one on my part. Its correction Ianthe was being kind enough to not throw me under the bus when every recent reduction in output results in assumptions of bad faith on the team's part, but it resulted in her own actions being misinterpreted. That will not do. The simple fact is that I made a wording error that resulted in one aspect of the set applying to more enemies than it was meant to. This is therefore a correction based on the original, and imprecisely communicated on my part, design of the items. To reiterate: The trigger was meant to be upgraded from Harm to Void when facing a trigger boss with the full set, to get around old designs that would've made the set bad against bosses of its niche. We could make this a power based trigger to expand this to miniboss shadows and old bosses that somehow didn't have Freedom as well.

Lastly, the timing of the changes in one set compared to the other are not a matter of reversed priorities. As folks might know, we have two coders in the team. Ianthe coded the Shadowstalker set and Kamui worked on the Devoured Earth one. Ianthe had a spare moment to look at her work on the gold donation set. Kamui was busy at the time. Rest assured, we're aware of the issues with the set, but it would be bad practice to have them step over each other's toes.

< Message edited by Lorekeeper -- 2/7/2023 12:30:26 >
Post #: 1
2/7/2023 12:37:41   
Korriban Gaming
Banned
quote:

also have a standing proposal to increase the gold donation set's value by creating a combined category for Shadows, Shifters, and all future monsters with similar seeking.

This would benefit the set greatly and I am in full support of this idea. If this change can be implemented, I think it would pretty much satisfy those who are unhappy with the FSB in its current form.

quote:

or that they're only usable at all against a few bosses is a degree of hyperbole and extrapolation of preference to general quality beyond what we can reasonably discuss with.

This has nothing to do with that. In its current form to trigger Void only against mobs with BOTH Shadow and Freedom, it is a FACT that there is only a very tiny handful of monsters that fulfils this criteria. Regardless of how good the trigger is, an item can't be considered useful if it's specific niche is only 0.001% of the monsters in the game.

quote:

the entire point of the FSB is to ensure that the strongest enemies in the trigger category don't automatically shut down the items meant to trigger on them by virtue of having hidden low Harm resistances, because the set would ONLY be good against standard mobs without it

quote:

but especially inapplicable when these items are introducing the Eclipsed status and thus gaining a use outside of their triggered category as well.

The appeal of the set has always been the Void trigger to begin with. We have so many sources of Harm in the game. As for Harm skills, there is literally one in the void right now that is usable against all mobs. Sure, it doesn't have the 20% damage boost but it also doesn't lock out your Shield and Misc slots which can potentially give you a higher than 20% damage boost. As for seeking the other standard 8 elements, I'm going to assume that players are at least bringing a weapon of every element rather than having some super niche build that carries 7 utility weapons. So you can technically just use your regular elemental weapons against Shadow mobs rather than this specialized one. There are plenty that provide a similar boost but aren't locked to only the Shadow and Shifter category albeit for a cost but the cost is usually insignificant.

The darkness Freeze is new yes, but is it really that great on its own or is it only because there's currently nothing else that does the same thing? Not that I think Freeze effects are bad, I just feel they aren't fantastic in the current meta, even against regular mobs but that could be a playstyle thing.

quote:

As of general nuking, please remember that soft damage caps are not the same as hard damage caps, they are diminishing returns with a variable clawback per boss rather than complete cutoffs. The latter are very rare. More damage does indeed matter against the former, it's just a deterrent against burning all resources in an attempt to score the same one-turn kill one might get against a common frogzard.

I agree. But having tested the Void skill on my own pre-nerf with a significant amount of boosting, I'm not seeing numbers that I can't already see using nukes from the standard 8 elements. It does lose out a fair amount compared to the 8 standard elements to compensate for the standard 200% Void resist. The skill having only 3 hits and locking out your Shield and Misc slot essentially balances it out to be on par with regular element nukes.

quote:

We could make this a power based trigger to expand this to miniboss shadows and old bosses that somehow didn't have Freedom as well.

Taking away Freedom as the only trigger necessary hurt it alot. It went from a set that was usable against regular bosses and being better against shadows and shifters to a set that can only be used against shadows and shifters. It essentially cut the usability of it by more than half.
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 2
2/7/2023 12:45:19   
Dreiko Shadrack
Member

My issues with the devoured set are based only on the shield for two reasons, one more objective and one less:
1- The imbue has its effect spread over too many turns to be really noticeable, I'd much prefer halving the turns and doubling the power.
2- Why is it an imbue at all? I know that it's to have better synergy with the weapon and allowing you to make use of its heal while still applying the statuses, but I don't quite agree with this as the FSB requires the shield be equipped anyways and beyond allowing the use of the hit component of the weapon the imbue has no reason to be one.

I'd like to see the shield be a toggle of sorts instead of an imbue, one that does the usual checks of whether it hit or not, how many hits connected if there were more than one and if the damage was above 0 (though perhaps it should be just do the damage check as the weapon has an auto-hit effect?) before attempting to inflict the statuses. It would reduce the resource expenditure and maintain the overall goal of the shield's role within the set.

quote:

The appeal of the set has always been the Void trigger to begin with.


I couldn't disagree more with this point for my part as one of the 50 that owns the full set. The Void trigger was not my appeal with the set on the whole let alone the FSB. I quite like having the ability to target some of the most annoying monster categories in the game as both optimal defense and offense, a full damage harm skill which then itself gets another 20% damage ontop with the full set is incredible especially when I know I'm sacrificing no survivability for it. The eclipsed status is also quite exciting for me as it was one of the two missing freezes.

< Message edited by Dreiko Shadrack -- 2/7/2023 12:53:05 >
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 3
2/7/2023 13:07:11   
legendd
Member
 
quote:

but they have a place in other upcoming content.


With this said, I am not sure if I favor prospective change to cater future design or that of retrospective to be set as precedent when altering items.
Post #: 4
2/7/2023 13:23:00   
Jue Viole Grace
Member

Taking away the void freedom hurt alot considering 50 people had access to it. I agree there is not that many shadow monsters to begin with.We already have so many harm sources the void trigger gave a breath of fresh air on something unique
AQ DF  Post #: 5
2/7/2023 14:34:16   
PeeBall
Member
 
quote:

There was no technical error, but a descriptive one on my part


Thanks for the clarification and honesty. In retrospect, it would be good to know the true reason of such major changes from the start. I had only detailed reasons why the FSB was "not as overpowered as it seems" due to the initial reason provided for the change (the FSB being "just a bit too powerful").

I maintain my earlier point that the Void trigger portion of the current FSB is meaningless given that it now works on 1-2 monsters. Agreed with what you said about soft damage caps, but it does not change the fact that said soft caps reduce the damage difference between the Void weapon skill and other existing nuke options to a minimum, making the former more acceptable than the 'free x2 damage' some view it as. This is what I gathered in testing against several bosses.

Anyway, regarding the power based trigger, not sure how that will turn out as I'm unfamiliar with the concept of monster/boss powers and can't clearly imagine the end result. However, there must be a better way than limiting the Void trigger to only 1-2 monsters. While Eclipsed was intriguing as well, I personally found the Void trigger the most interesting part of the set and it would be sad to see it get reduced to this.

quote:

I quite like having the ability to target some of the most annoying monster categories in the game as both optimal defense and offense

Agreed with this being a great feature of the set, though I find them to be some of the easiest monster categories personally, and never really sought more defense. Hence, the Freedom trigger before the change felt a lot more valuable than the Shadow one (and would hurt more if lost), since I have never felt the need for more support against Shadow monsters in general. This of course does not speak for all players; I can imagine how helpful the added defense can be for some.


quote:

The Void trigger was not my appeal with the set on the whole let alone the FSB....which then itself gets another 20% damage ontop with the full set is incredible

The 20% you like is, in fact, part of the FSB. I do agree and it's part of my appeal with the set as well. But personally I'd be more willing to part with this than lose most of the Void trigger.

< Message edited by PeeBall -- 2/7/2023 14:43:40 >
Post #: 6
2/7/2023 14:48:50   
Sapphire
Banned


 Shadow Proposal:

The shield- Keep exactly the same

The Weapon- 1. Keep the darkness freeze skill vs normal mobs
2. Add a trigger vs shadows/changers to be *JUST LIKE DOOMLIGHT BLADE*, so this means it stays as darkness, but gets a damage mod as if it's hitting the monster's weakest element.
3. Change the skill as a trigger to include the doom knight blade-like damage mod and forgo the darkness freeze.

The misc- 1. Keep the .5 Mods to light/dark and the +20 dark freeze potence.
2. As a trigger vs shadows or changers, keep the damage reduction


Full Set Bonus: Vs shadows/or changers, the MISC fires an appropriate omni ele vuln similar to troposhield in that it fires and gets implemented pre-damage. The ele vuln amount calculated to be consistent with proper FSB. Save is +0.
Versus shadow/changer *and* freedom, the FSB save is lowered to -20.



This is a better way to fine-tune the damage boosts to help and not make it an automatic double damage boost.


This setup makes it better vs a wider swath of monsters, but lowers it's effectiveness for current and future boss mobs

That'd be a great compromise



< Message edited by SapphireCatalyst2021 -- 2/7/2023 16:21:53 >
Post #: 7
2/7/2023 15:01:57   
Dreiko Shadrack
Member

quote:

The 20% you like is, in fact, part of the FSB. I do agree and it's part of my appeal with the set as well. But personally I'd be more willing to part with this than lose most of the Void trigger.


Y-yes it's part of the FSB, when have I claimed otherwise? I'm not sure what you're trying to get at with that one, unless you just didn't understand what I was talking about to begin with.

quote:

Agreed with this being a great feature of the set, though I find them to be some of the easiest monster categories personally, and never really sought more defense.


Annoying =/= Hard, don't misconstrue. A set that focuses on a specific monster category and one that does it very well is no different than paladin targeting undead, it speaks nothing to the difficulty of the category overall. This is one such set, the criticism of "well now it's only really good against the category it's meant to fight" doesn't make much sense, it's like saying paladin's most powerful effects should affect any monster whether it's undead (or a demon) or not.

< Message edited by Dreiko Shadrack -- 2/7/2023 15:09:28 >
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 8
2/7/2023 15:30:08   
Aura Knight
Banned


 I'd like to propose the following adjustments to the Devoured Earth gear:

For the weapon, in addition to the heal an extra special can happen if you use shield and misc. You can click it to remove active statuses on the enemy and recover mp and sp equal to the total burn and poison damage active. So a status eater limited to earth burn/poison.

The shield should place a 5 turn imbue where you attempt to inflict the burn/poison. The power of each will be equal. Save roll as appropriate. With fsb the target receives the full damage for 2 turns. FSB effect can only occur once per battle. You heal off the poison damage.

Misc by default will get -15 potency for burns and poisons then the full set effect boosts it to -20 for all other statuses. Toggle for 22% damage boost to all outgoing damage. LS boost for earth damage. Defensively works like the osiris misc but for earth.
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 9
2/7/2023 16:59:50   
Dardiel
Member

Since we're making suggestions:

No thoughts on the Shadowstalker FSB, that's a can of worms I'm not educated enough to comment on.

For Devoured, only item I currently wouldn't happily use is the shield and even then it's close. My suggestions are:
1: Reduce/remove the burn to either focus on the siphon or to reduce the cost
2: Pay some amount of damage or accuracy on the attack to reduce the SP cost of the imbue
3: Either weaken the siphon to make it last for the rest of battle, or add a toggle that allows the player to choose between a stronger but shorter siphon vs the rest-of-battle siphon

My reasoning is that the shield and weapon seem more cohesive when they're both doing things that pay damage for healing (suggestions 1 and 2), and that a siphon lasting the entire battle would be a niche that currently has no support (suggestion 3) though the choice part of suggestion 3 is my attempt at making a suggestion that doesn't make the "reduce shield status duration" crowd unhappy.
Post #: 10
2/7/2023 20:43:17   
Corvid
Member

I really enjoy the art, creativity and uniqueness of the devoured earth set, which makes it fun to use. I also really admire the community involvement and openness of the staff to player feedback. There is a lot to be grateful for.
AQ  Post #: 11
2/8/2023 0:01:24   
GwenMay
Member

For shadowstalker, the void trigger against freedom was the most interesting part of the set to me. I tried it a bit before the change and did not think it was too strong at all. Against non-freedom bosses, the skill stuns and (usually) makes enemy light resistances at 200%; I assumed the void trigger against shadow and freedom enemies (both of which would sidestep the 200% light resist stun from the skill) was to ensure the skill did or set up a 200% damage attack whether against shadows or bosses. That being said, my initial assumption on reading the item description was that the void trigger only worked against shadow/shifters with freedom, not either/or, so it makes sense that the original iteration of the fsb was a communication error.

On a broader note, I don't think void damage needs to be as limited as it currently is. All void damage really does is ensure your attack hits against 200% resists for the vast majority of enemies. This is definitely powerful, but not necessarily "parcel out only to a handful of items that trigger against specific categories of enemies" powerful. It's not really that different from hitting a petrified (or other element variant) enemy. I would very much like to see general use void items in the future, with appropriate penalties (damage, increased hp/sp/mp cost, etc).

Other than that, I really like the shadowstalker weapon. The shield has a niche but powerful use that I can appreciate. I also see the use-case for the shadowstalker misc, but considering we already have f2p +20 potency pet boosters and +10 generic boosters, I don't think a +20 eclipsed potency booster is really worth it.

The devouring earth weapon, misc, and fsb are great, no objections there. Good job team. I like the idea behind the shield, but agree with the comments that the shield's poison/burn/heal feels weak. I think it's trying to do too much; I'd keep the imbue and the poison heal, and drop the burn to increase the poison's damage/heal.

I have no particular objection to the Akriloth/Airenal/Sinmaw change. I didn't really see the need, but I'm not going to complain about an element lock toggle. I hope that, since these got an overhaul out of the blue, we're going to be seeing more items in their vein updated soon (e.g., custosilva mace, tera'suul horn).

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


I'd also like to make two points on this conversation, and on staff-player and player-player communications more generally.

First, I am concerned about the impact the broader discussion on balance is having on the community. From participating in and observing conversations on the forums and AQ discord servers, I have noticed "battle lines" being drawn in the community between players who want stricter and more uniform adherence to "balance" for AQ items, and players who prefer a more relaxed approach to balance. Without trying to put words in anyone's mouth, it seems to me that both sides agree balance is important, and both sides seem to recognize that there will be situations where existing balance principles do not provide clear answers (e.g., Prime Chaos Orb). However, I think each "side" has gotten to the point where they often make a knee-jerk reaction to a particular topic, and repeated negative interactions on AQ balance has led to a general reduction in civility when discussing that topic. Personally, I think both positions have merit, and that the correct solution depends on the particular item or topic under discussion. I suggest (again without naming names) that players caught up in this discussion keep their minds open to compromises and new position, and assume good faith.

Second, I was a bit put off by @Lorekeeper's first post in this thread. Creating a new thread for this discussion was a good decision, since the topic deserves its own thread, and I appreciated the background details about the initial miscommunication behind the Shadowstalker fsb. That said, I did not appreciate the portion of Lorekeeper's post where he advocated for the changes and heavily criticized the feedback offered by certain players. As the title indicates, this thread was created so staff could receive player feedback about these items. Having a staff member begin the thread by denigrating the feedback offered by certain players and implicitly approving the feedback offered by other players is counterproductive, and acts as a deterrent for future player feedback. After all, why should a player offer feedback if they fear a staff member will publicly criticize it?

Staff members have far more opportunities than players to offer feedback on items behind the scenes, while the forums are the primary place for players to offer feedback. If staff disagrees with player feedback, they have a simple and commonly used solution: don't implement it. There is no need for a staff member to publicly take sides in a forum for player feedback. Even if a staff member disagrees with the feedback, or considers it hyperbolic or inaccurate, not every misstatement or exaggeration requires a lengthy post from a staff member explaining why the player is wrong, especially in areas as rife with player debate as item balance. Other AQ players are more than capable of pointing out any perceived inaccuracies themselves, and often do so.

I greatly appreciate the consistent attention AQ staff have payed to player feedback, and absolutely want that to continue. Not many game developers are as attentive to their players as the AQ team is, and Hollow, Ianthe, Kamui, Lorekeeper, and the rest of the AQ team have my genuine gratitude for their efforts. Nor do I want staff to hold back from discussing their views on particular items, or to abdicate their duty to ensure that forum discussions conform to AE and forum rules. I only request that staff refrain from criticizing the very player feedback they actively solicit, even if they disagree with it.

< Message edited by GwenMay -- 2/8/2023 0:13:03 >
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 12
2/8/2023 0:52:30   
legendd
Member
 

 Fully agree with Gwen. When the other spectrum of players make opinions, without explicitly showing off bad faith and/or hostility, the readers be it Developers and Players can filter and adapt/implement. If Developers are constantly in agreement, e.g. balance is important (yes, we are fully aware by now), it seems to me certain playerbase opinions carry more weight.
Post #: 13
2/8/2023 1:17:42   
Aura Knight
Banned


 There is certain difficulty in expression of thought if we must also take care to censor ourselves. It often can disrupt the flow of a conversation. But it's a flaw with the forum rules. What I'd call simple disagreements is instead referred to as trolling or flaming. No use asking for feedback if you dismiss the thoughts of people you don't care to listen to. Everyone deserves a voice of equal standing. We so do not have this and this new reality saddens me.
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 14
2/8/2023 1:48:48   
Jue Viole Grace
Member

I agree with gwen post and also agree that taking away void trigger againts freedom monsters kinda sucks.I hope changes are considered for the items and everybody suggestions are taken into account especially those who actually get to use all the items.It starting to become evident that certain playerbase opinions hold more weight than others at times

< Message edited by Jue Viole Grace -- 2/8/2023 3:52:48 >
AQ DF  Post #: 15
2/8/2023 2:13:13   
PeeBall
Member
 

 Agreed with Gwen and the posts after Gwen's.

In the spirit of constructive discussion and to avoid what may be perceived as hostilities/deterrent to discussion/misconstrued, I will rephrase my earlier post for easier comprehension: what I like the most about the set is the Void trigger, and while the +20% damage from FSB was also nice, it is secondary to me. + I generally never found Shadow/shifter monsters annoying, nor hard, but it's perfectly understandable if other players feel so, but the main point is that I valued the Freedom trigger much more than the Shadow/shifter one. Please bear with me as I am new to the forums.

I respect the devs' efforts in continuing to deliver interesting and exciting new items to us and appreciate them being unbiased and giving equal consideration to various player opinions.

< Message edited by PeeBall -- 2/8/2023 2:19:28 >
Post #: 16
2/8/2023 5:02:42   
icetears
Member

I still prefer the original trigger of Shadowstalker. I do find the new changes makes it very restrictive and limited to even carry it. Personally it was not too powerful before and was still pretty niche to carry it. I hope the staff do relook into it again.

As for devoured earth , only the shield is lacking as the imbue cost was too high. Removing the burn to reduce the cost and reducing the poison duration to increase the siphon would be good. Otherwise I do love the weapon and misc.
Post #: 17
2/8/2023 5:22:57   
Red Blood
Member

While I didn't climb high on the gold contest side of things it does seem like most prefer the original take, and perhaps a happy middle ground can be reached to make everyone happy with the set. For devoured earth the shield needs to focus more on 1 to 2 things vs the current 3 effects to ease the sp drain, and come off as a weaker Infernal retake. Perhaps not the most fair comparison but I can't help but compare them to each other given the heal poison. The misc is ok I suppose given it can fill attack, and defensive rolls, but the auto hit weapon steals the show for me.
As for the Akriloth/Airenal/Sinmaw changes I would like Airenal's toggle to be at least a 3 hit given the others more or less get gifted extra hits along with their toggle boost so Airenal seems like it's taking a backward step in comparison when it comes to boss content. Less of an issue if caps are generous but when the damage gate is low that 130 boost is worth less than another hit would be.
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 18
2/8/2023 5:46:22   
LUPUL LUNATIC
Member
 

 I liked the Void trigger on Freedom monsters for me because it made it have an extended niche over just Shadow monsters. It isnt very strong because in normal circumstances an elemental Nuke deals more damage than the weapon Void skill. I think it fit well for Freedom niche and within that niche serving as somewhat best "Harm" option. Now with wording of "and" instead of "or" i do think Zombie Bane Staff becomes way better if thinking about it. And it doesnt cost you 392 SP everytime to use it either.

My main appeal was the Void trigger on Freedom monsters for this set, i didnt needed +20% and Harm on shadows because as i said we have better options as actual Elemental damage that this portion becomes not so great for me.
AQ  Post #: 19
2/8/2023 8:00:28   
dizzle
Member
 

 I do appreciate the quick adjustment from Ianthe, even if it did just so happen to be convenient. I’m also pretty surprised these sets have gotten as much traction as they have, because I felt like everything we got was very good.

With that being said, I have to start this off by apologizing because I’m gonna put you guys (the devs) in a Catch-22. While I do appreciate the promptness of the adjustment to the Shadowstalker set, regardless of circumstances, I’d also humbly ask that in the future when there are plans to use player feedback for an item/items adjustment, that you guys (the devs) wait until you’ve gathered enough feedback and have thought over the item enough to formulate a concrete adjustment. Releasing an item just to change it, just to have to change it again, and again causes 1) confusion for players, 2) more work for staff since they have to keep going back to the item instead of focusing on upcoming releases, and 3) risks putting said item in limbo. We have more than plenty items that are slated for adjustments, no need to make the list longer.

Regarding the sets themselves, I have no complaints. I genuinely really like both sets and their FSB’s and I’m surprised they have gained this much traction with how good the sets are. The only thing I think I would’ve preferred was if the Shadowstalker fsb retained the Void damage on *any* freedom monster, but with a x.5 damage tied to it to reign in the damage and make it act as if you’re hitting normal resistances with it, as opposed to the 200% void res that most monsters have. This is a deliberate break in balance, but this way you keep that rare Void aspect of the fsb, yet broaden its niche to more than just a handful of specific use cases while still keeping the skill reigned in and in-control.
AQ  Post #: 20
2/8/2023 9:43:40   
Korriban Gaming
Banned
quote:

Shadows may have played out their role in the story, but they have a place in other upcoming content.

There is currently 1 monster in the entire game (that matters at least) that fulfils the Shadow + Freedom trigger and that's Mighty Shadow Rocky. Looking at its MRM and its mechanics, chances are that this supposed OP Void trigger skill is going to miss more than half the time unless BtH is greatly boosted but the only way to do that would be through QC buff spells since our Shield and Misc slots are locked out. Unless we see a continuous influx of nothing but Shadow bosses with Freedom for the entirety of this year, the biggest appeal of the set (according to most of the players here) is literally worthless. And no, I absolutely do not agree that the game should take such a direction just to make 1 item useful. The more straightforward way would be to just undo the changes to the restrictions.

quote:

This is one such set, the criticism of "well now it's only really good against the category it's meant to fight" doesn't make much sense, it's like saying paladin's most powerful effects should affect any monster whether it's undead (or a demon) or not.

The Void skill is usable on 1 monster right now. 1

quote:

On a broader note, I don't think void damage needs to be as limited as it currently is. All void damage really does is ensure your attack hits against 200% resists for the vast majority of enemies. This is definitely powerful, but not necessarily "parcel out only to a handful of items that trigger against specific categories of enemies" powerful. It's not really that different from hitting a petrified (or other element variant) enemy. I would very much like to see general use void items in the future, with appropriate penalties (damage, increased hp/sp/mp cost, etc).

I couldn't agree more. Void items are so rare and have so many restrictions when we have standard elemental items that can be boosted to well over 200% damage. I think more can be done for them, we shouldn't be afraid to experiment more boldly with the element. Alot is held back simply because it's 200% against most things but I'm sure some sort of cost like Gwen suggested can balance it out. 200% really isn't all that impressive nowadays when you have things like EleEmpower, EleVuln and a whole bunch of other things the standard 8 elements have.

As for the remainder of Gwen's post, I fully agree with it as well. As some other users have also pointed out, more neutrality needs to be exercised when dealing with player feedback regardless of whether you like it or not. I am of the opinion that devs should remain neutral regarding feedback from players and not openly agree or disagree with any of them. If a particular feedback gets alot of support from other players, then heavily consider implementing it, otherwise it will just die down on its own if its something that has little to no support.

Despite all my grievances and complains, I can see that the staff does take in feedback which is something that's very commendable. Though I will say that the feedback needs to be gathered from a wider spectrum of players before it's implemented. The Forums is probably the best place for this as such feedback is easier to consolidate on Forums as opposed to some other channels like Discord.

Since everyone is giving out suggestions, here's what I would propose

Shadowstalker:
- Bring back the original trigger for the weapon. Yes, that's literally it, just undo the change, no more no less. Alot of players seem to prefer it that way. I've already explained quite extensively in the other thread as well as on AEO why I don't feel it's OP because of all the restrictions. I'm not going to retype everything but I'm sure it's easy enough to find. I just want to reiterate the point that the Void trigger skill only shines against a Shadow boss with Freedom. Against any other standard boss with only Freedom and doesn't hit with Light or Dark, you are literally dead the next turn if you don't finish it off with the skill since you're sacrificing both your Shield and Misc slots. Add on to the fact that we have 0 Shifter bosses.
- Alternatively
quote:

I also have a standing proposal to increase the gold donation set's value by creating a combined category for Shadows, Shifters, and all future monsters with similar seeking.

just make this change. But since it's still in the proposal stage, how long more before it gets implemented is the question. This is probably a fair amount of work so I'm not expecting it so soon. I don't think anyone is gonna wait a year or more for their donation sets to become useful. So while we're waiting for this to happen, I would suggest that we stick with just undoing the current changes. When these changes finally rolls out, the weapon will be in a better place, but till then, at least make it more useful.

Devoured Earth:
- The biggest problem and probably the only problem for a lot of people seems to be the Shield.
quote:

1: Reduce/remove the burn to either focus on the siphon or to reduce the cost
2: Pay some amount of damage or accuracy on the attack to reduce the SP cost of the imbue
3: Either weaken the siphon to make it last for the rest of battle, or add a toggle that allows the player to choose between a stronger but shorter siphon vs the rest-of-battle siphon

I second these ideas from Dardiel





< Message edited by Korriban Gaming -- 2/8/2023 10:33:03 >
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 21
2/8/2023 10:11:38   
Sapphire
Banned


 It's also troubling when you get told on discord , just like when Paleskull was being developed, that "If you don't own all the items, you have no say. And it's best to just not comment"

This is a very real sentiment by some of the players.

When my heart is to try and come up with a compromise, and offer ideas, and then you get told something like this, it's quite counterproductive and it removes a sense of community.

We don't have a gaming community here. Not really. We have 2 High School factions with different ideas to achieve the same goal, and neither side will ever budge. Ever. And as a result, it devolves into madness.

I can literally write down or say "hey watch this reply" and then say something (like offer my opinion on a random topic) and you literally see mob rule in some areas react reflexively and on time, and predictably accurate, the response fits in that puzzle piece that was carved beforehand. That's not good faith and that's not constructive.

You don't see it here on the forums much anymore, as the rules are quite honestly, sort of ridiculous. They essentially treat the playerbase as if we are all 12 years old.


I do not take issue with LK's original post, personally. I don't see anything there. I think LK is honestly trying to help set a few ground rules for the feedback and is a long-winded way to say "We're not putting it back". So I'd suggest people set aside the old idea and put forth a better one than the current iteration.

The problem though, is we are going to have one of the largest releases of the year this week (Im assuming this is rather large, forgive me if it's not and my assumption is wrong) and staff probably got an early start, and it will likely not be a Thursday release, meaning Friday/Saturday...and we are all here talking about "fixing" LW's stuff... How exactly is that going to happen? Eternal armor is still on the backburner (I know armors = most difficult)

Again, I implore staff to take the doom knight blade functionality and use it somehow with this fix. I think it may allow for a good solid compromise, if/when this stuff is changed.

As for devoured shield, I would just change the poison/burn both to 2 or 3 turns *and* change the burn to the SP heal version. This would alleviate the SP heavy cost, just over time, and SP heal options are always welcomed.
I also wouldn't be opposed to the weapon being slightly "Infernalized" and gaining an sp cost toggle to enhance the heal. It's current amount IMO isn't worth it. And I'll *never* use it for auto hit, but others might.


Lastly, I think the Gorilla in the room something that hasn't been mentioned. The donation contests for all their flaws have another flaw, and it's one that with each donation event has grown cancerous:

A lot of the debate/animosity/vitriol/headache comes from the idea of "Player controlled outcomes", and how it's handled. It should be more of "Player influenced outcomes" Staff I think are slowly losing some authority with these event rewards, and even in other areas. I'd wager a bet it's a frustration. It's also creating more work than necessary, along with the player emotional responses that's harming the community.

So I think for future donation events, once the art is shown, there should be separate threads on each individual item. I think staff should post what they have in mind for the items. Or suggest a few ideas to build on. Then let the ideas take shape in the threads. Then they get mostly finalized at around the time the donation event BEGINS. That way, we all know what we are donating for. This may result in more donations, less, and that may depend on how good the item is. But I think transparency on the front side may allow for items to be made 1 time, no adjustments needed (or less, at least) and all this posturing is only in the form of trying to win the donation, and not so much the selfish posturing to people who obtained them and the jealous rebuttals of those who didn't get them...

I have always felt that these things should be developed and infi subs made on the front side of this stuff, and I think if it was , it would alleviate a lot of issues. Maybe that would be a logistical constraint for the Devs/staff, but this is a business and people are often paid to get things done in their workplace, so I see little issue with an attempt.



< Message edited by SapphireCatalyst2021 -- 2/8/2023 15:53:10 >
Post #: 22
2/8/2023 11:18:26   
Aura Knight
Banned
quote:

It's also troubling when you get told on discord , just like when Paleskull was being developed, that "If you don't own all the items, you have no say. And it's best to just not comment"


Such comments are necessary as it's often the ones lacking the discussed items who favor lessening their worthiness. If you'll never use the item say nothing.

AQ DF AQW  Post #: 23
2/8/2023 13:54:15   
Sapphire
Banned


 The assumption that I am trying to lessen the worthiness of these items on the front side is flat out incorrect, and then throw on top advocating for others to shut their mouth on *any* topic is as absurd as it gets. Justifying that approach is comical. I'm sure it's against ToS here, so at the very least keep it to the safety of frenz on discord?
Post #: 24
2/8/2023 14:10:34   
Aura Knight
Banned


 Not all topics demand participation from everyone. What's so wrong with feedback being limited to those who have the items? I'm not saying this to antagonize, it just makes sense. Lose the aggression if your desire is real discussion. Think of it like this too: the people who use whatever item is up for debate or discussion will know better than those who only theorize how it is. You may not intentionally call for the weakening of it but I'd bet ideas would favor it. Whether we like it or not we do try to make our own gear better at the expense of what we don't own.
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 25
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