=DF= April 21st Design Notes: Book 3: Reimagined - Queen of Swordhaven & Ninja Rework!


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=DF= April 21st Design Notes: Book 3: Reimagined - Queen of Swordhaven & Ninja Rework!

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4/22/2023 6:00:11

Flabagast
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quote:

Friday, April 21, 2023
Book 3: Reimagined - Queen of Swordhaven & Ninja Rework!
Hey there, heroes!

This week, while Dove is still indisposed and recovering, we're doing an early Reimagined release!

The Book 3 main story quest "Queen of Swordhaven" has had dialogue adjusted and rewritten. These were relatively minor changes, but still important!

Also this week, however, Ninja has received its major update and rework! More information can be found below.

Ninja and Pirate also have new customization options, and Technomancer has received a new customization option as well.

Ninja now has access to the Classic customization when unlocked, and the Tempest customization can be unlocked with the Dusk Tempest Catalyst. Technomancer can also use the Dusk Tempest Catalyst!

Pirate now has access to the Dread Pirate customization when both Pirate and Ninja have been unlocked, and the Sunken customization can be unlocked with the Sunken Fathoms Catalyst.

As a result of these changes, Dread Pirate and Old Ninja are no longer accessible. If you want to use those looks, you will have to use the Armor Customization room to change the appearance of your Pirate or Ninja class.

This week's Reimagined quest "Queen of Swordhaven" can be found in Sulen'Eska, and the new Customization Catalysts can be obtained from the Book of Lore's Customization Catalyst shop!

Ninja rework details:

As usual, skill effects and numbers and mechanics are subject to change! Also, please note that Color-Custom Ninja has not been updated and will be folded in to Ninja as a Customization option at a later date.

Ninja no longer has a default 2.25x crit damage modifier, instead, using the default 1.75x crit damage modifier.

Ninja Mechanics - Ambush and Catalytic Flow

Ambush:
• On the first turn of battle, Ninja gets a free double turn!
• Certain skills will let you follow up with a free turn when used first.
• You cannot chain Ambushes. So if you use a skill that would give you Ambush on the second turn of a double turn, it will be wasted.

Catalytic Flow
• Using the skill Catalytic Flow will change some skills to Burst Venoms and reset their cooldowns.
• Some other skills may be changed in Catalytic Flow as well!

Skills:

Attack
• 1 hit for 125% base damage.
• Recovers 15 MP.

Blur
• 1 hit for 130% base damage, 8 CD
• Applies Blurred Form to self, +120 Defenses for 4 turns.
• Applies Blurred Vision to target, -40 Bonus for 4 turns.

Spider, Scorpion, Viper Venoms
• Venoms progress after use, going on 7 turn CD after Viper.
• Spider Venom
o 1 hit for 50% base damage. Applies Spider Venom, 20% DoT and -40 Bonus for 9 turns.
• Scorpion Venom
o 1 hit for 50% base damage. Applies Scorpion Venom, 30% DoT and -20 Boost for 8 turns.
• Viper Venom
o 1 hit for 50% base damage. Applies Viper Venom, 50% DoT and -100 Crit for 7 turns.
• Burst: Wyvern Venom
o 4 hits for 100% damage, 50% DoT and -30 All res for 3 turns.
o 7 CD

Furious Assault
• 3 hits for 150% base damage, 14 CD
• Applies Unsteady, a stun, for 3 turns.
• Burst: Basilisk Venom
o 3 hits for 150% damage, 50% DoT and +40 Health res for 3 turns.

Shuriken Spray
• 1 hit for 130% base damage, +20% base damage for every Venom on your initial target. 0 CD
• Hits all foes.

Catalytic Flow
• 2 hits for 175% base damage. Applies Catalytic Flow to self for 5 turns. CD 15
• Catalytic Flow's buffs change based on the number of non-Burst Venoms on your target.
• 1 Venom: +25 Boost
• 2 Venoms: +25 Boost, +100 Bonus
• 3 Venoms: +25 Boost, +100 Bonus, +200 Crit AND Ambush
• Catalytic Flow also switches certain skills to their Burst versions

Vanish
• 8 CD
• Applies Vanish, +100 Avd to self for 1 turn.
• Ambush
• Unlocks Shadow Strike.

Shadow Strike
• 10 hits for 300% base damage, +20% base damage for every Venom on your target. 11 CD

Shadow Fade
• 9 CD
• Applies Shadow Fade, +180 Avd to self for 2 turns.

Blood of the Lotus
• 1 hit for 150% base damage. 20 CD
• If it hits, it will reapply all Venoms on your target, and increase their remaining durations by 4 turns.

Walk Within Shadows
• 15 CD
• Removes all DoT effects from self.
• Heal self MP for 10% max MP
• Heal self HP for 8% max HP + 2% max HP for every Venom on the target.

Rapid Strike
• 2 hits for 140% base damage, +20% base damage for every Venom on the target. 1 CD
• Reduces CD of Shadow Seeker by 1.
• Burst: Rapid Frenzy
o 8 hits for 240% base damage, +20% base damage for every Venom on the target. 1 CD
o Reduces CD of Shadow Seeker by 1.

Massive Strike
• 1 hit for 200% base damage, +20% base damage for every Venom on the target. 9 CD
• Has innate +200 Crit.

Shadow Seal
• 6 hits for 120% damage. 12 CD
• Applies Shadow Seal, which drains Level/2 STR, DEX, INT, and LUK from your target for 4 turns.
• Applies Shadow Drain to self for the amount of stats drained.
• Burst: Seal Venom
o 6 hits for 120% damage, 50% DoT and -60 Avd/Defenses for 3 turns. 12 CD

Shadow Seeker
• 2 hits for 100% base damage, +100% base damage per Burst Venom applied to target, and +30% base damage for every Venom applied (including Burst Venoms). 30 CD
• Ambush

Ninja is a rather defensive damage-over-time focused class that still has the power to debilitate and power through foes if needed! Use your tools and Venoms wisely, and create combos for huge damage if you can find the openings! Check out the new Ninja rework in-game now! We look forward to reading your feedback and thoughts.

Finally, the DragonLord Castle house should tentatively now properly display all dragon heads/wings/tails. If it does not, I will have to investigate it further at a later date. Apologies for the inconvenience!

And that's all for this week! We'll do our best to do our main story release next week, but everything hinges on how Dove is feeling and recovering. Thank you all for your well-wishes and understanding!

Have feedback about recent releases? Have any crazy theories or ideas? Want to discuss all things DragonFable?

Join the discussion on the official forums!

Want to play DragonFable without using an internet browser?

Check out the Artix Games Launcher!

Follow us on Twitter for sneak peeks and updates (and feel free to tweet us your fan art and feedback too!)

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Paw printed and tagged! ~Gingkage

< Message edited by Gingkage -- 4/22/2023 9:11:26 >

Post #: 1

4/22/2023 7:58:10

Laeon val Observis
Member

I was half expecting new customizations for Pirate and Ninja considering the rewards for this month's Inn release (was thinking that the weapon rewards will be turned into catalysts). Perhaps when I'm in the mood will I purchase the Dusk catalyst.

Now, for my impressions of reimagined Ninja. Somehow my suspicions were true as to why Duskbolt possesses a complex rotation. Formidable offensive capacity when set up right, but is more of a bruiser than Pirate. You'd have to be willing to take a hit as much as hide in the shadows to unleash its full potential. And unlike Pirate who can wield any offensive mainstat, Ninja is locked to either pure DEX or actually properly utilize a DEX/INT hybrid in contrast to Pyromancer. It's large stockpile of skills (I actually find it interesting the approach that Catalyze converts our stun skill into a DoT skill. Makes it more purposeful when facing against bosses) also makes it quite technical, where you could either shield up first or noob the opponent's stats to amp DEX up during setup mode. I'll miss the malefic autostun the old skillset had, but its probably a fair price to keep it from being too over the top. Something I felt with Pirate with how its evasive tactics could stretch the limits of balancing against defensive classes.

< Message edited by Laeon val Observis -- 4/22/2023 8:18:31 >

AQW

Post #: 2

4/22/2023 16:12:38

TFS
Helpful!

Thoughts on the Ninja class:
I like this class a lot! Most of DragonFable’s classes follow a similar design template of build up resource -> burst, though the emphasis on DoTs and shields keeps Ninja pretty unique while retaining its existing identity. There’s a bit of conceptual overlap with Pyromancer, but by replacing the healspam with shields Ninja manages to make itself distinct. (Though, as usual, I’m not sure to what degree Seaweed/Hardtack are influencing how the rest of the game is designed, if they even are at all.)
I also like how there’s now a second class with a skill set that encourages DEX builds naturally, instead of manually increasing base damage if DEX is leveled or just giving DEX itself higher scaling than the other two stats regardless of each class’s skillset. I’d imagine this was probably one of the first things decided about the class, and if so it’s done well.

I think there are a few things that could be improved, though.
First, it's kinda clunky that the Venom skills reset to Spider Venom if you use another move. Not all lategame enemies are going to be so gracious as to give me 3 free turns without using up dragon’s shield, and leaning on a crutch to set up the class’s fundamental mechanic probably isn’t great. It’s definitely not a dealbreaker though and the class is still very strong regardless.
Second, I’m not a fan of how an Shadow Strike is implemented. Just as a skill that does damage and nothing else, I don’t think it has much of a purpose vs Rapid Frenzy (see below). Moreover, the fact that it gets re-locked if you use anything after Vanish renders it fairly niche too; when I press Vanish, I’m doing it for the shield and -1 to cooldowns. I’m not going to save it for an attack slightly stronger than my filler move! Also, the fact that one move is inseparable from the other but they’re counted as separate skills kind seems like a misuse of design space – the venom stacks function the same way, but they’re compressed into one skill! There’s also a bit of a wonky interaction where you can’t take two double turns in a row, so pressing Vanish after Catalytic Flow or Final won’t actually unlock Shadow Strike.
Rapid Frenzy also feels like it does too much damage for a 1CD move with an added effect, when Massive Strike does less damage and nothing else with 9CD while Shadow Strike does only slightly more (420% vs 360%, you aren’t using this when Burst isn’t active) despite having 11CD AND only being usable immediately after Vanish. I don’t think it makes much sense to have multiple moves that just do damage and nothing else when there’s another skill that does more or comparable damage despite being usable with 4-5x greater frequency while also lowering the cooldown of your final. I think this would make more sense if Rapid Frenzy was lowered and/or the other two were increased / had some other effect.
Shadow Seal is cool and unique and calls back to the original Ninja’s skills, but I think debuffing mainstat was removed for a reason. Why can’t I steal a useful stat like END, or even BPD/MPM?

Those are my thoughts on the gameplay. This is also incredibly minor, doesn’t affect the gameplay, and is likely not worth the effort, but I think it’d be cool if the class had some sort of widget that provides a visual indicator when you’ve done thing good and/or highlighted the skills that gain new effects while Burst is active. Just because this is a relatively complex turn-based RPG (plus the fact that Ninja is the first class a theoretical new player who’s doing the game in order will unlock), there are likely going to a lot of players who won’t bother to learn mechanics on their own; a UI that provides visual feedback is a good way to lead people to water and prior class revamps have done a generally decent job of this.

Also, I really like the sleek new Final animation, though the old hit/block animations are kinda crunchy. There’s also still a longstanding visual bug where using a trinket skill that causes the player model to disappear (such as Elemental Unity) will cause the back arm to disappear until relog. I also appreciate the new Naruto Run.

spoiler:

Since we have two real DEX classes now I think it would be cool and epic if DEX scaling was lowered so that classes with entire skillsets and passives built around increasing the crit rate and base damage of direct attacks but happen to have a single DoT on a filler move can actually run INT again like the class design clearly intends

Post #: 3

4/22/2023 19:27:37

Verlyrus
DragonFable Boxcat

We are planning to add a widget, but we did not have time this week.
Minor adjustments to DEX and other stats is something that has been considered for a bit now.

I had some concerns with how Shadow Strike turned out. It has some niche use cases, but it's not always very satisfying.

And of course, numbers and such are to be adjusted. The feedback is appreciated!

Post #: 4

4/22/2023 23:22:05

Primate Murder
Member

I really love the new ninja!

It has high capabilities for both offense and defense, Ambush is nice for one-shotting mobs in maze quests, and I really love the Blood of Lotus skill for giving my venoms (up to 6 of them!) another few turns.

One minor criticism - and this is purely a personal and subjective opinion! - is about the shuriken throwing animation. For me, it just looks stiff and awkward. Not necessarily bad, but it also doesn't really look cool.

Otherwise, I love the new class, love the theme of slowly whittling down enemy capabilities with a wide array of venoms. A major kudos to the devs for the rework.

Post #: 5

4/23/2023 1:22:40

Cryomancer
Member

First of all, great job on the Ninja rework! Right now, it feels like a cross between Pyromancer (though its emphasis on stacking DoTs to enable its burst) and Corrupted Doom Epoch (with how the vast majority of its damage output comes from an infrequent burst rotation), but there's enough unique skills and aspects to Ninja that makes it meaningfully distinct to the two classes I previously mentioned.

I also appreciate how Ninja does have massive initial burst damage. I don't think Ninja's damage should be nerfed significantly - I think Ninja's initial burst is well balanced out by the long cooldown of Catalytic Flow and Shadow Seeker, and more importantly, the revamped Ninja currently fills a niche of a class with initial burst that the free classes are severely lacking in - the only other "good" free class with heavy burst damage is Wrath Dragonlord, and good is a significant stretch for that class. This is a niche that free classes desperately need right now, as the lack thereof is a major reason why the free classes struggled against the Inn fights in early 2022 that required heavy burst damage to defeat one boss (i.e. Retribution and Reclaimation, Eggsalted Chickencow) compared to the premium classes.

That being said, I think the way Spider/Scorpion/Viper Venom is set up could be improved. The fact that the venoms reset to Spider Venom if you use a different skill feels a bit clunky and it's very restrictive on Ninja's rotation - and it also doesn't help that as TFS stated before, few endgame bosses are going to give 3 consecutive free turns to set up without inflicting heavy damage or a crippling status effect in return. I think having the venoms work similarly to Epoch's Boosts or Hexes where they will only reset to Spider Venom once all three venoms have been inflicted onto an enemy would feel a lot less restrictive.

With regards to DEX, the issue with any chances to DEX is that all the recent DoT-heavy classes were clearly designed with the new DEX modifier in mind - and any change to the DEX modifier would unintentionally nerf the relevant classes and alter their playstyles in a significant manner.

As such, I think a possible solution to this issue would be to have the classes reliant on DoTs for their damage (Ninja, Pyromancer, Dragonrogue, Necromancer) use the current DEX modifier for DoT damage, and to have the other classes use a new DEX modifier for their DoT damage - which would be akin to how Chaosweaver and Cryptic use a different damage multiplier for crits.

Alternatively, the modifier that INT gives to crits and STR gives to non-crits could be buffed so that the classes that are currently reliant on DoTs for their damage aren't affected significantly, but classes such as Techno or Bulwark Dragonlord wouldn't be inclined to run DEX as the boost that STR and INT would thus give would be more significant.

I also think that if DEX is ever going to get changed, then the Fluffy Tog and most fights from 2022 onward both need significant changes as well as all of these fights definitely seem to be designed with the current DEX modifier in mind.

< Message edited by Cryomancer -- 4/24/2023 4:42:45 >

Post #: 6

4/23/2023 11:22:39

The ErosionSeeker
*insert cheesy pun here*

Different DEX modifiers would be another layer of unexplained mechanics, like ChW having an extra 10% crit damage.
I think it's more likely that classes that weren't intended to be DEX focused but have giant DoTs anyway will have their numbers reduced.
Techno has a 5x100% on a fairly high uptime skill, which is nuts. WDL also has nutty numbers, and that's a class that straight up guarantees its crits. Most of those will probably need to be halved and more damage added to their actual attacks in order to push back to INT.

AQW

Post #: 7

4/23/2023 16:42:28

TFS
Helpful!

Different classes having different mainstat scaling effects just seems like it just sidesteps the issue of mainstat balance rather than addressing it. If every class did this that'd be one thing, but they don't and the scaling functions are present on the actual stats for that reason. Which is just better game design regardless.

DEX being overtuned also isn't the sole issue with mainstat balance. STR is basically dead on concept due to how similarly gearsets and classes are designed; players are always going to have a ~45% base crit rate without even doing anything and (nearly) every class that's come out in the past 10 years weighs its damage output towards autocrit skills and/or crit buffs. Case in point, Ninja, which isn't even an INT class.
In a theoretical world where more content was designed around this, like STR weapons that did more damage but had -crit, or more cheat classes like DragonWarrior that just didn't crit, the design would probably make more sense. But it's pretty incongruent to how the majority of the game is designed and isn't very useful outside of niche farming setups. This isn't really due to undertuned scaling or anything and STR builds wouldn't suddenly become good if DEX just disappeared one day (except maybe on DoomKnight, which is DoomKnight).

This line of conversation is also decidedly not about Ninja and is probably counterproductive to the point of this thread

< Message edited by TFS -- 4/23/2023 16:50:08 >

Post #: 8

4/23/2023 18:06:30

Laeon val Observis
Member

Well, anyone can feel free to open that kind of separate thread in here in GD. I certainly will not, mainly because it is so easy to foresee that it is easy to underestimate the consequences of recalibrating mainstat effects. As much as I find the stat system that @Cryomancer proposed curious, even AQW which implements something similar to what he describes fails to provide diversity (go ahead and figure why Wizard and Lucky are still the main basic enhancements there). Notwithstanding how item templates do not really appeal for low/non-crit builds (seriously, punishing Bonus and damage range too). And notwithstanding a trait on how we train stats in this game that can be forgotten after years of being a DA holder. It ain't exactly cheap, even after it was flat rated. Providing a class-to-class basis on mainstat bonuses will only aggravate that (having to spend 8.9k gold to reconfigure stats for different classes here at level 90 will be a logistics nightmare) when I see that you need at least two non-Base classes to safely progress this game whether you be DA or NDA. I won't even go and talk about the difficulties caused by human nature to gravitate to brute force even though we are capable of reason.

Now, for the current status of Ninja. Pretty much everything I analyzed over multiple questings (Inn and non-Inn) have already been described here. The 3-in-1 Venom skill definitely deserves the revisions described, and possibly some additional checks. I've seen Catalyze not provide full benefits even if I did invest the time to deploy the 3 non-Burst Venoms, first as a random incident (did it by the book, so I cannot find any means to replicate it) with Mega Junkyard Driller, and one after using the Punt Twilly option against Rolith's Inn-carnation. Maybe remove the halving function on the mainstat debuff to make it more appealing (the reason why such debuffs are intimidating when we are on the receiving end is because most enemies that use it unloads a large lump sum). The Rapid vs. Massive debacle, I'll leave that to dev discretion. Now, I definitely do find that Vanish got devalued even if the skill it combos with got amped up. At least its previous iteration provided some degree of sniping as a long-term benefit. Perhaps revise it to something similar to DL's Earth Dragon Spirit skill, but for MPM instead of the post-hit HP regenerator (doesn't need to be a large value as the -40 Bonus of the first Venom is like a Dropbear+Hidebehind in terms of how it influences hit probabilities (found that out the hard way as a greenhorn DmK when I thought it was a good idea to equip those turn 1 against Escherion), which will more than likely be extended by Lotus) so as to aid in the long game nature of the class. I have somewhat mixed thoughts on the healing skill (maybe because Duskbolt extra actions into a shield after using it), but I'll leave that to dev judgement too.

< Message edited by Laeon val Observis -- 4/23/2023 18:15:15 >

AQW

Post #: 9

4/24/2023 9:23:36

Roxas45
Member

I like it.
Ninja feels and looks beast now.
Oddly, too strong for normal fights, but not strong enough to take out the Inn challenges (or maybe I'm not doing it right).

Loving the reworks thus far.

I did forget to change my stats till I came here and reread the notes about Dex utilization. XP So lets try this again from the top.
I seem to remember though that you could set up the dodge and fades in such a way that you would nigh unhittable for a whole lot of turns - again, maybe my understanding of the rotation is bad, but I'm not able to achieve that.

The negative bonus on the foes - now that..
That is a game changer I like.

AQW

Post #: 10

4/24/2023 17:46:42

Laeon val Observis
Member

The old skillsets were trying for a "stealth and slow death" theme which, while interesting, left it with barely any DPT against foes with significant healing factor (I remember very clearly that I tried Ninja within the first day of Extra Fluffy Tog's release. Both of us were neck and neck until my MP pots gave out). The new Ninja, as @Cryo describes, has a somewhat Ranger feel in that you will have to willingly forego deploying your class's built-in shield skills during Burst mode, relying solely on the 3 non-Burst Venoms to tolerate the facetanking, but you'll be relatively safe during setup phase. When I was running tests on how to use the new Ninja, the rotation that I generally follow is:

Blur, Seal or Spider>Spider (omit this if Spider was used turn 1)> Scorpion>Viper>Catalytic, Seal or Wyvern>Seal or Wyvern (whichever you did not use on the previous turn)>Basilisk>Lotus>Seeker, Rapid>Massive

I'm not saying this is the most refined method, but it can unleash lots of damage. What's not sequenced there is the possibility of injecting Scales and Vanish during the second phase of the setup (deploying your Burst Venoms), which is why you don't see Shadow Strike in the rotation I use. Since one of the concerns pointed out in this thread is the lack of incentive to use Massive, the rotation's end might turn into Seeker, Massive> Rapid depending on further revisions to the class.

< Message edited by Laeon val Observis -- 4/24/2023 17:48:29 >

AQW

Post #: 11

4/26/2023 3:52:37

Kai Kazama
Member

So, after playing with the the reworked Ninja class for a few hours, I came to realize a few things:

A. After allocating points to INT, DEX & LUK critical damage is a lot more frequent, which I like.

B. Shadow Strike, by comparison to the skills feels kinda irrelevant now, which isn't bad. But I think replacing Shadow Strike with a another shield would be a far better option since we now have a bunch of other skills that allow for DoT at this point.

C. If not a a shield, then maybe something akin to how Walk in the Shadows work, but make it a HoT with a shield as well? That way we have more recovery and a way to deal with late game bosses easier. Empathizing evasion and recovery than DoT damage. Ninjas are elusive after all.

D. Adding a secondary DoT might also be a good idea as well so we don't -have- to always rely on the venoms.

E. Possibly make Vanish into another Ninja Ambush as well, so we have more chances to get another turn against harder bosses

Either way, the ninja rework is something I've been waiting years for, and I'm happy with the results. You guys have been putting out bangers with the reworks and I'm sure I speak for a lot of us when I say that we appreciate the work you've put in.

< Message edited by Kai Kazama -- 4/26/2023 3:57:54 >

DF	Post #: 12

4/26/2023 7:15:04

Laeon val Observis
Member

^Had to bust down the Training Dummy to confirm the validity of your Suggestion E. Perhaps forgivable due to the DNs of this week being lengthy, but after cementing it with my Dummy fight, I can confirm that Vanish still behaves as described in the DNs. That is, being capable of initiating Ambush. Do you use it after a skill that also Ambushes? If so, the lack of Ambush you experience when you follow that skill up with Vanish is due to the balancing nature imposed to Ninja's Ambush extra actions. The DNs makes it clear that you cannot chain multiple Ambush skills in one turn to exploit the nature of extra actions, particularly in how they accelerate cooldowns. If not, you're probably experiencing a bug.

AQW

Post #: 13

4/26/2023 10:09:10

Kai Kazama
Member

Ah, I can't read apparently. Disregard point E. I rarely have to use Vanish, so I didn't really read it like I should've. Whoops!

DF	Post #: 14

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