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On End And Resource Dumping

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3/12/2024 20:14:38   
taz_td88
Member

Hey guys, I’m not sure if this is the right place for this, if not hopefully a mod could move this thread to the right place

I have become aware that there are plans to change the essence orb for the sake of balance. This is a mistake. While it would certainly create room for designing new items and it would remove it as a staple of misc items, it will also render not only the item but the stat END worthless in effect.

Insofar as it is not assumed that most players train END and monsters are balanced to generally allow 0 END builds to thrive that means there is no real merit to Endurance in and of itself besides peace of mind and stat rolls trying to heavy hand that stat into relevance.

I posit in the current game model the best two purposes END serves is as a resource pool and for backlash. As the extra health is generally understood to be superfluous, it’s more valuable as a tradable resource. I, therefore, propose not that resource dumping be discontinued, but that it be limited to one resource per turn. Otherwise, you run the risk of End being functionally useless while numerically balanced. If I have to spend a whole turn using a reverse healing spell, I’ll just skip it altogether.

I remember long ago the forums used to say experience is not the plural of data, which I find to be a cold way to look at players trying to comment on how something bothers their gaming experience. And I think that culture is a large part of why there’s now so many conversations about the balance of the game being inaccessible to average players who want to communicate. How players generally feel about your game should matter as much as the numbers. Even if they can’t parse it in mathematical terms. This of course may not be the case now. And you know you guys are super dedicated and hardworking. I certainly appreciate the efforts you take to keep the game running. However, as much I appreciate you guys and this game was big during my formative years. I have seen balance decisions that have led to mass exoduses, I have been apart of one myself. And was gone for almost a decade. We all love this game, you probably more than me. But nonetheless, I don’t think that there are any nefarious motives at play, but I think perhaps taking one of the most popular items in the game and nerfing it will negatively affect the health of the game.

Personally, unbalanced rare items I would generally leave alone. Like z-token items. That way I wouldn’t create any ill will in the player base, while still offering an updated balanced alternative. It is a pretty terrible feeling logging into your account, still remembering how your equipment worked and now it doesn’t. And there is an immediate question the player has to ask themselves as the state of game databases are scattered and hopping on discord is slightly necessary to get up to date info. Am I willing to spend hours researching to play a game that changed all my favorite items (because that’s what our inventories are we can’t actually be collectors or completionist) and for me that was yes. But it seems like a pretty large and unnecessary hoop to have returning players go
through especially when balance standards and stat changes will generally sort the broken nature of old rares incentivizing returning players to upgrade them to the new counterparts anyway.

As far as room for design, offer different flavors of the essence orb. Some with resistances, maybe some will elevuln, some with passive bleed effects and a cost per turn. There is room left for design without gutting the essence orb.

One more thing I’d like to say, is that I would like to come to the forums to give the devs more praise, but a very real fear exists that if I tell you what I like, it’ll see the nerf hammer. So it’s just better to enjoy in silence and only voice concerns on the forums. I’ve seen it a lot after releases most notably after frostaval this year. Glowing reviews followed by oops our bad it’s too strong followed by player begging to leave it alone settled with a resolute no. Makes onlookers think I should definitely not mention my favorite item. Even if it is balanced, this kind of PR cheats you guys out of well deserved praise.

Moved into GD. ~Ward

< Message edited by Ward_Point -- 3/12/2024 21:22:56 >
AQ  Post #: 1
3/12/2024 21:32:40   
  Lorekeeper
And Pun-isher

 

 Thank you for presenting your concerns. I believe I can address both your concerns and requests in full by explaining that this is not at all how we conduct or define balance, as explained in this thread.

In addition, I would like to make a few quick reassurances:

Firstly, just because Essence Orb is slated to be changed does not mean we plan to make it or END worthless. We would need to set the line for 'worthwhile' at 'overpowered' for that to be the case, and even setting that consideration aside, the goal of reining in an overpowered item is never to make it obsolete. Notably, our initial draft for the EO changes was discarded precisely because it felt too punishing, which is why the item hasn't changed yet. We've discussed better ideas, but they require game engine work, the time for which is in short supply.

Secondly, that is not at all how the Winter Warden set was addressed. The set had an unfortunately lengthy series of bugs, ranging from not properly triggering effects that required spellcasting to some features having double the status power that they paid for. In short, the numbers in the game aren't arbitrary or eyeballed -- each effect has a power budget that it draws from, with a set of rules to follow. Bugs resulted in some features not working, and others breaking these rules. Said bugs were fixed.

The development team is not out to randomly ruin people's fun by looking up what they like and nerfing it because they like it. Lastly, the Winter Warden set remained very strong after its changes, and has since grown even stronger through support from the stat revamp.
Post #: 2
3/12/2024 21:39:29   
Aura Knight
Member

There's this strange concern regarding lack of item variety, yet what the essence orb offers has already come from other sources released after its introduction. The only benefit is how readily available it is provided there's guardianship on the account. The item cannot come close to a threat to the game's balance because it isn't alone in offering SP regeneration.

When the change does happen it will still keep the function likely with limitations such as how the token misc soul gauntlet works where it's once a turn. A level limit too makes sense where only the one closest to your level will function. Beyond this the item might as well be completely new.

Adapting to changes is a fair ask but I get the concern of the nerfs given to items we praise. Could just be me but too often there's bugs found where the fix kills the initial hype. Our enjoyment should not be at the mercy of item balance. It's very simple. If we like something and everyone can use it, leave it alone.
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 3
3/12/2024 22:39:09   
  Lorekeeper
And Pun-isher

 

 I'm afraid that something as egregious as an item having double the power it pays the resources for is nowhere near that trivial of a concern. Please see the above linked resource for a full explanation.
Post #: 4
3/12/2024 22:59:53   
Aura Knight
Member

The problem is with endurance itself not essence orb. It's a self created problem too not foreseen when 0 end got hp value to triple from what it was. A reversal is out of the question so the items which work off it get the change. I stopped relying on essence orb but it still sucks to think something so staple to our inventories will see less use.

Please don't waste your time telling me to read what I completely disagree with. There's a difference of opinions not likely to reach compromise. I get why things need to happen but liking them is a result I can't offer. I'll just wait and see while complaining of the inevitable to deaf ears like other times.
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 5
3/13/2024 0:28:20   
  Lorekeeper
And Pun-isher

 

 The item's base behavior isn't provided by END; it's enhanced by it. As of the linked thread, it's an explanation of balance, not an opinion piece that we require agreement with. Providing the definitions at play as an explanation is not a demand for compliance or compromise; I'm afraid that refusing to read them or disagreeing with them doesn't change the fact that they are the explanation to the topic. When entering discussions about balance, that definition is inevitably going to come up.

Refusing to acknowledge it while accusing others of turning a deaf ear is a paradoxical stance that's impossible to engage with. We welcome all constructive feedback, but there is genuinely nothing we can do when ignored and told that we're the ones turning a deaf ear.
Post #: 6
3/13/2024 2:12:48   
Aura Knight
Member

quote:

The item's base behavior isn't provided by END; it's enhanced by it.

Doesn't that have the same meaning? HP is the resource necessary for the item effect to be used. If you lack hp the item is worthless to you. It might offer plenty even if there's 0 endurance but this is fault of the base endurance to hp ratio since at 0 it's barely below 3k. With sp skills varying depending on skill type or weapon used it seems like the power of the orb itself is exaggerated. If a third of your hp fully heals your sp bar then you use skills costing damn near nothing in addition to the passive regen of sp of course it will seem broken.

What if the orb equipped makes you lose the passive regen to sp? You'd only convert hp to sp only while the item is equipped and maybe it could lock your use of items too. Sacrifice something to keep the power of the essence orb close to the same. Complete negation of heals might work too. Prevention of item destruction has to be prioritized.



AQ DF AQW  Post #: 7
3/13/2024 2:14:51   
  Ward_Point
Armchair Archivist


 Essence Orb's current conversion isn't actually far off from actual numerical balance. No one is looking to gut Essence Orb until it won't be in anyone's inventory, but it's also hilarious when there are players with a Lv.150 Character who abuse Lv.5 Essence Orb resource conversion in actual gameplay and then cry when the Nerfbat hits it.

1) Outleveling penalty. This has to happen and other pieces of gear have this, whether it's Boosters or Buffs. The player should use level appropriate gear paying appropriate costs. Player Hp increases exponentially to Level. A lower level Orb is more efficient because it has to be, otherwise a player with a lower level character will be at a much larger disadvantage.

2) Resource conversion without limit. This has to be stopped somehow(?) The real debate should be how much conversion should be allowed? Is 50% melee too low? Or should up to 100% melee in SP be allowed per turn? Or more? These are useful questions to ask and discuss.

< Message edited by Ward_Point -- 3/13/2024 2:17:56 >
AQ  Post #: 8
3/13/2024 6:39:44   
CH4OT1C!
Member

I don't want to get involved with the opinions being expressed here. I simply want to provide an explanation for how Essence Orb is currently balanced:

The Level 150 version of Essence Orb costs 75 HP and heals 89 SP per click. It still uses the old form of HP costs, where 75 HP is worth approximately 50% Melee. This old HP cost is why the original bloodmage cost 151 HP to boost spell damage by 50%, and would be the equivalent of 261 MP or 196 SP. From there, Essence Orb receives an "always useful" penalty (for being quickcast) of *0.9, a common in-game penalty applied for resource conversion. Finally, a *0.5 modifier was added because the staff decided back in the day that the misc needed a penalty to make it somewhat balanced. In other words, the staff went outside the normal mathematical constraints to balance Essence Orb:

quote:

196 * 0.9 * 0.5 = 88.2 SP


This isn't quite the same as the final number provided due to a few rounding inconsistencies and PowerLvl modifiers (essence orb is PowerLvl 153, not 150, which makes it slightly stronger). For these reasons, the conversion rate of EO won't change that much even when updated. It would simply require removing this *0.5 penalty and switching to modern costs. Assuming 75 HP remains the base click cost:

quote:

75 * 1.125 * 0.9 = 76 SP


So a 75 HP click would heal 76 SP. Please note that doesn't mean this would be the only change applied. I'm simply demonstrating what the modern conversion factor would look like.

< Message edited by CH4OT1C! -- 3/13/2024 10:04:42 >

_____________________________
AQ  Post #: 9
3/13/2024 7:44:13   
Ogma
Member

A healing spell/SPell is also a conversion from MP (SP) to HP. We should put the same consideration to EoB I guess. Except for the fact EoB is instant. Also the more you click on EoB, the less efficient the conversion gets, just like a standard spell vs overcharged spell.
AQ  Post #: 10
3/13/2024 9:55:17   
CarrionSpike
Member

quote:

A healing spell/SPell is also a conversion from MP (SP) to HP. We should put the same consideration to EoB I guess. Except for the fact EoB is instant. Also the more you click on EoB, the less efficient the conversion gets, just like a standard spell vs overcharged spell.
Direct conversion and spell-type attacks are two very different things. They each have their own rules (e.g., what they are boosted by), and spell-type attack notably also have a damage range.

quote:

2) Resource conversion without limit. This has to be stopped somehow(?) The real debate should be how much conversion should be allowed? Is 50% melee too low? Or should up to 100% melee in SP be allowed per turn? Or more? These are useful questions to ask and discuss.
I feel like diminishing returns might be something worth looking into.

As an example, let's say that the conversion is 100% Melee in Resource1 to (100*0.9)% Melee in Resource2 for each click with a 30% melee penalty per click, with the penalty refreshing each turn. So that would be:
100% --> 90%
100% --> 60%
100% --> 30%
100% --> 0%
So for a maximum number of uses in a turn the conversion would be 300% Melee for 180% Melee, which is 0.6 efficiency. At PowLvl 153 this would be 1045 HP/1566 MP/1176 SP for 626 HP/940 MP/707 SP which is still quite a lot of resources per turn*. Please keep in mind that this is an arbitrary example of a diminishing returns system and is not necessarily a suggestion.

*Note: MP --> HP/SP conversion will always be a bit wonky due to how MP is valued compared to HP/SP.
Post #: 11
3/13/2024 10:27:10   
Ogma
Member

quote:

Direct conversion and spell-type attacks are two very different things. They each have their own rules (e.g., what they are boosted by), and spell-type attack notably also have a damage range.


I don't see how they are very different? Point for how they are boosted, but they are essentially the same to me. EoB is basically a SP heal spell using HP as resource, a base only damage and 0 random damage (with a chance of a lucky strike to boot, albeit it's fixed damage). What it sets apart is EoB does not depend on stat for healing, and its efficiency remains the same when used, unlike spells where the more MP you spend in a single turn, the less damage you per MP spent, because spells are subject to the 20 turns model. EoB feels OP because of this I think, not following the 20 turns model (Warrior would be 15 turns of weapon damage and 5 turns of skill damage for a total of 2500% melee, Mage would be 12 turns of magic weapon damage, 4 turns of spell damage and 4 turns of magic skill for a total of 2500% melee). I think EoB upsets this model by allowing any build use more skills then intended. By looking EoB as SP heal spell using HP as cost, it'll be easier to make EoB fit into the model. Hence that's why I say the more you click on EoB, the less efficient the conversion gets. For example, 1st click is the equivalent of an efficient spell, so 150% Melee damage to heal your SP at efficient spell cost in HP. 2nd click would be a standard damage of 200% Melee at standard spell HP cost, and 3rd an overcharged etc...

< Message edited by Ogma -- 3/13/2024 10:55:09 >
AQ  Post #: 12
3/15/2024 3:15:15   
taz_td88
Member

Sorry for such a late reply.

I am confused between Loremaster’s post and Ward Point, is the 150 version of Essence Orb 2* as strong or is it about on par?

generating 100-% melee is about 392 sp iirc. That covers maybe one skill not even a guest. My armor requires sp, my weapon requires sp, my misc requires sp, sometimes even my shields and pets require sp. And when I don’t have sp I fall behind unable to use my guest or triggered weapon, or my misc or my shield won’t do its effect, or my armor stops its special effects (choke is disappearing can be fatal). Warriors don’t use the Essence Orb for small heals. One turn in my Neko Armor with a guest and a cheap misc and I’ve spent 300. If I add in my Masanura I’m at 398 sp a turn. Same thing with Eternal Champion’s Apex or Winter Warden. But with Masanura, it doubles as my energy weapon. Which means without sp I have to redo my whole arsenal to fit an energy weapon in. Sure I could not empower the weapons, but then why have them instead of pure damage options with no sp cost.

If I actually want to cast a skill, that’s the whole 392 sp there, I still need to power my guest, my misc, possibly my shield or my pet or my weapon too. This isn’t the same problem for mages. And it is pretty linked to why warriors train END. I hold that trading your life force in unlimited quantities isn’t an issue, as over reliance means death. Sp costs for a good build as a warrior is incredibly high. Compare this to my mage character and they aren’t even using their sp the same way nor to such a heavy extent.

And then if I get Celerity, casting two skills would be 786 sp plus my guest, misc, weapon, and shield. And if my pets and guests have celerity those have be paid twice in too. That’s over 1,000 sp in a turn. In the Chronocroaker armor, this is real possibility. Even if I’m just using the Havarti Blade or a Bard Of War. (Using BoW, a misc, and mansanura cost 484 sp a turn). It feels like the necessity of an essence orb for a warrior will continue to exist, but if the resources aren’t there the style of play won’t be fun. Sp doesn’t get a full heal so warriors will always be trying to dig themselves out of a whole in terms of the resource. Doubly so for BMW.

I guess while I’m here I’ll talk about END a little more. The 10 nor 20 turn model assumes annihilators (0 END) will need to take turns to heal. Which in practice means that the game is created that base health is enough to overcome the monsters in the game. END adds extra health. But since it isn’t assumed that a 0 end character will have to heal, what merit does the health pool serve? It’s superfluous except as a resource. Does the formulas in use offer a practical use for the almost additional 3k hit points. Everyone has equal access to elemental resistances and FD equipment. It is not a bad thing, that END found a use a a secondary resource pool for sp. it provides identity and purpose. But if I can’t keep up my sp cost no matter what I do, what value would I have in extra END and why would I want to reduce offensive power for a superfluous amount of health? It is true that having END allows for riskier play, but the advantages of Luk in the form of Lucky Strikes, bth, dodge chance, and status infliction is much more valuable than just extra hit points. And the versatility that CHA provides is more useful than extra hit points. And ironically, both could be better forms of enduring in a battle than END, especially if the ability to make use of the hp is limited in such a way that it’s not practically that helpful and only situationally so. In such a case, wouldn’t killing the monster as fast as possible instead of dragging it out and running out of resources be preferable?

Finally, charging up sp is a pain. Whether it’s fresh into a log in or right after death. The essence orb removed that pain. But will you really want people to rush in to a random battle, fighting in ways they don’t want to, so they they can start the mission they want to play, only to run out of sp in a battle or two and never be able to refill it again for the rest of the mission unless they’re using GGB or Hero Mart items.

For the reasons listed above I’d just sell the item if it had diminishing returns. It wouldn’t serve the purpose it needs to serve.


To the point about praising the Devs for a job well done. Chronocroaker is amazing!!! Probably my favorite armor right now. Any chance we can get an Eidoth guest call spell? The Dreadstalker Call, we could have snugglefest just the two of us. Huge fan of the Doomlight set even if it isn’t the most end game it is fun! Masanura - Mys baby! No surprise but I’m also a fan of royal cake and the legion shield cake. Mosquitos are bae. And I do appreciate Protector being updated. I wish the set had the elevuln effect like the pet but I’ll settle for an up to date version for sure!
Winter Warden has a very good choke! But meh. It doesn’t feel very strong. It should have been allowed to compete with Neko. But Neko blows it out of the water. ?? Like winter Warden, Neko comes with two Sp inflictions. Burn and a choke as compared to burn and bleed. Both are FD. One trades weapon power in addition to sp. But the burn ends up weaker and doesn’t stack as well which significantly extends the battle and wears down sp resources. So a lot of the gains saved from choke are eaten by essence orb trying to keep the battle going. Within the set it’s ok. But it can shine paired up with a full fire burn everything else. So does Neko. But the elevuln is nice. But the skill is ice and doesn’t trigger on 0 or - resistances. So it’s not the best against tough ice guys. Against Earth it’s paired directly against Neko no drop which is tough, and against water it’s good but in this case Chronocroaker feels better. In fact Chronocroaker feels so close to where I want Winter Warden to feel. Both have elevuln abilities, both are FD, Chronocroaker has an extra elevuln, purple rain, and a drown (freeze) ability. Independently freeze is pretty meh, but auto hit coupled with get a turn back and elevuln and celerity and damage. it is fanfreaking tastic! Now the Frostaval armor has elevuln a passive burn and a passive choke and extra choke. If you aren’t relying on the armor for any offensive power just the sp passive boosts, it is pretty noice. But as a warrior whacking things, some status potency or making burns stronger would have been nice. Removing the fsb really hurt the set I think. Rather than Remove it, it would have been nice to have additional burn damage or some sort of multiplier against choked enemies. Even the omnipotence was nice.

AnotherEdit: I have always loved the Blade of Awe(!!!) but it’s PWD changes. Oh my!!!
But Freedom feels too common place, like it’s designed to punish players and discourage paralysis and freeze statuses. Which feels bad and makes them generally feel like a wasted slot. It would help if it were mixed up. As is paralysis isn’t really worth using. You don’t really have a desire for your pet to paralyze an a casual enemy. Paralyzes are defensive and when taking out the trash, surely most would be offensive.
Some of the new monster designs I’ve noticed are mechanically pretty dang good though. I have been enjoying a number of fights. Kel al Relish seemed to have gotten a buff. Chronocroaker was a fun fight. The ice armored elves are pretty tough. And I just did the challenge fight Last Resort. That was fun. I’m actually hunting for more bosses it’s fun. But also warring, I’ve been waiting for a war so it’s nice that one is here. And the updated art work through the Devourer Saga is legend wait for it dary . I’m waiting for my I survived the Devourer T-shirt. Around level 90 it was one of my faves. Knowing it’s gonna come back better than before has me super excited!


< Message edited by taz_td88 -- 3/15/2024 7:32:31 >
AQ  Post #: 13
3/15/2024 10:36:44   
Sapphire
Member

This is going to need to be done with a bit of delicacy. While I normally would only ask for these types of nerfs be done with delicacy in regards to premium items, or foundational effects that are attached to premium items, there are a few longstanding meta items that if hit with the nerf bat too hard, it would cause quite a huge upswelling that it wouldn't be good for the game. There are some other items that get a nerf that also could be done with a bit better tact.



For example, the arcane cutlass change was handled well ultimately. The guest portion of the stat revamp was handled well.

But Optico was not. It should have been changed such that the penalty existed on both pet turns on celerity so that both turns gained the bonus. Winter Warden stuff has been an utter debacle and a cluster... and especially the shield, was not handled well. It should have been changed to lower the elevuln amount and kept the turns so it could be built on. Also, in evaluating all elevuln items, it seems to me that all but tropo, wishweaver, and now winter warden are all OP via the amount because nothing in AQ's history seemed to have accounted for 0 turns. So why the handpicking of one item but not another? BEcause certain people went running and yelling in certain circles ? So either handwaive it all, or fix it all. And I would just lower the amounts inflicted and keep the turns so that 2 turn can be built upon instead of wholescale nerfs. Disabling stacking is a terrible direction for these 2 turn that should be 1 turn.

Also, wishweaver pet's change, wasn't announced, but that was also not dealt with well. Considering the players who suggested the items suggested Omni elevuln but would be ok with wind, and it came out omni..for a few months..then randomly swapped to wind...w/o warning. Maybe it was a derp. Maybe it was causing an OP interaction with other elevulns. But it still could have taken more effort and thought to somewhat take those who have it into account.

There's been other examples.

But in regards to Essence orb, an outleveler formula isn't even needed. The most delicate way to handle it is:

1. Put it on modern conversion standards
2. Cap the number of clicks/turn
3. Cap the sp gained to 2x a melee skill (784)
A. You can cap it to more turns but lower conversion. So lets say you get 4 clicks and gain 1/4th 784 SP per click
B You can cap it to 2 clicks, each giving 392 sp , enough for 1 melee skill each click
(I prefer 4 clicks, you dont always need that much)
4. Make the various versions share a click cap, removing the need for outleveler. Some players may WANT the lower conversion, so dont penalize via outleveler. Just make it so you cant equip several EO's and benefit to where you still regen an entire SP bar.


If the nerf to EO is any more draconian to what I just said, it will be viewed in a bad light. You cant allow something to exist forever and then one day bash into utter feces and expect your low player base to love playiing this game despite it. The game's already becoming AdventureSeasonalEvent with ever increasing focus on premium content, and now all we've seen this year is item nerfs. So now not only is there nothing to do in this game, the fun items are being removed one by one. Good luck keeping players.

< Message edited by Sapphire -- 3/15/2024 10:44:21 >
Post #: 14
3/15/2024 11:41:24   
  Lorekeeper
And Pun-isher

 

 We've had an increased amount of light releases as a necessary way of making room for the sheer workload of the stat revamp and the necessary adjustment period. Even that project by itself, with its massive jump in player power and build viability, absolutely refutes any notion that all we've seen this year is item nerfs. Please keep the hyperbole in check lest it become misinformation.
Post #: 15
3/15/2024 12:25:53   
  Ward_Point
Armchair Archivist
quote:

And then if I get Celerity, casting two skills would be 786 sp plus my guest, misc, weapon, and shield. And if my pets and guests have celerity those have be paid twice in too. That’s over 1,000 sp in a turn. In the Chronocroaker armor, this is real possibility. Even if I’m just using the Havarti Blade or a Bard Of War. (Using BoW, a misc, and mansanura cost 484 sp a turn). It feels like the necessity of an essence orb for a warrior will continue to exist, but if the resources aren’t there the style of play won’t be fun. Sp doesn’t get a full heal so warriors will always be trying to dig themselves out of a whole in terms of the resource. Doubly so for BMW.

I guess while I’m here I’ll talk about END a little more. The 10 nor 20 turn model assumes annihilators (0 END) will need to take turns to heal. Which in practice means that the game is created that base health is enough to overcome the monsters in the game. END adds extra health. But since it isn’t assumed that a 0 end character will have to heal, what merit does the health pool serve? It’s superfluous except as a resource. Does the formulas in use offer a practical use for the almost additional 3k hit points. Everyone has equal access to elemental resistances and FD equipment. It is not a bad thing, that END found a use a a secondary resource pool for sp. it provides identity and purpose. But if I can’t keep up my sp cost no matter what I do, what value would I have in extra END and why would I want to reduce offensive power for a superfluous amount of health? It is true that having END allows for riskier play, but the advantages of Luk in the form of Lucky Strikes, bth, dodge chance, and status infliction is much more valuable than just extra hit points. And the versatility that CHA provides is more useful than extra hit points. And ironically, both could be better forms of enduring in a battle than END, especially if the ability to make use of the hp is limited in such a way that it’s not practically that helpful and only situationally so. In such a case, wouldn’t killing the monster as fast as possible instead of dragging it out and running out of resources be preferable?
Welcome back. WonderEmporium was a long time ago now. The feel I'm getting from this paragraph is simply that you want to play a Warrior like a Mage. But... Why should a Warrior be allowed to burst in this manner? The entire stat revamp was designed to give each Mainstat a unique identity. Burst damage is the identity of a Mage. The Warrior should be slow & steady, and the Ranger is opportunistic. Allowing a Warrior to consistently inflict high damage comparable to a Mage goes against the identity that was just recently found for a Warrior. If you want to see big numbers... Well... Train INT and play as a Mage. The Warrior probably isn't for you.
quote:

But Freedom feels too common place, like it’s designed to punish players and discourage paralysis and freeze statuses. Which feels bad and makes them generally feel like a wasted slot. It would help if it were mixed up. As is paralysis isn’t really worth using. You don’t really have a desire for your pet to paralyze an a casual enemy. Paralyzes are defensive and when taking out the trash, surely most would be offensive.
This was ultimately caused by a period of time where the prevailing meta-strategy was Stun-locking the enemy at no cost by rewinding time and safely nuking in an EleComp armour. To stop Stunlocking, the Devs outright implemented Freedom. Purple Rain was finally fixed awhile back, ending the days of Stun-locking at no cost. What you're seeing is a legacy of the infinite-sp Stunlock days.

'Modern' Bosses, (Since around 2021 when Lorekeeper took over Boss design) typically have some sort of phase where a timed Stun would disrupt a nuke of some kind from the Boss. It would still have Freedom on most turns, but it would lose Freedom when 'charging' for its Nuke, creating some interactivity as opposed to making stuns outright useless.

1) Minor correction: LUK no longer influences BtH or Dodge.
2) Issues with CHA have been raised multiple times throughout the stat revamp. Guests are still so overpowered that even though END is ~2x more powerful than it should be, it will almost never be invested in if the alternative is CHA. This has been debated for years, but Staff have made the decision to increase Guest upkeep by 5% melee, and we have to live with this decision. The following is a point I've made in the Stat Revamp (Paraphrasing):
quote:

Base Behaviour.
LUK provides slightly more than 15% melee in damage
END provides a little too much HP (Doubled HP at max investment).
CHA provides 20% melee to Pet damage and the 'majority of Guest bonuses'.


To be very clear, a Level Appropriate Essence Orb is VERY CLOSE to being on modern standards. The issue would be the amount of SP allowed to be regenerated per turn.
Lv.150 Essence Orb
Current Cost: 75HP for 89 SP
Future Cost: 75HP for 76 SP

@Sapphire
quote:

Some players may WANT the lower conversion, so dont penalize via outleveler.
It's fine to have the lower conversion, but it's important that the ratio remains the same. We cannot have a situation like right now where rounding has caused the Lv.5 Essence Orb to be ridiculously efficient.
quote:

2. Cap the number of clicks/turn
3. Cap the sp gained to 2x a melee skill (784)

The proposed solutions are a little messy and conflicted.
Regarding (2) > This does not need a Outleveler. You are penalised enough because you regenerate a pitiful amount of SP.
Regarding (3) this absolutely needs an Outleveler. A Level 150 Character should not be able to convert SP at a ~ 1:2 ratio by using a Lv.5 Essence Orb.

I feel that 784 SP per turn is high. A Warrior shouldn't be able to just casually gain 2 Melee in SP and ultimately dump 3 Melee damage in a turn, every turn. Again, if every Build played like a Mage, there's no longer any build diversity. CHA and Guests are problems that won't go away as it is. We really don't want Warriors & Rangers becoming Mages (Again)

< Message edited by Ward_Point -- 3/15/2024 12:36:15 >
AQ  Post #: 16
3/15/2024 14:57:36   
taz_td88
Member

Thanks for the welcome back, But Ward, I have a mage. That’s not how it plays. I’m not trying to be a mage. I’m trying to be a warrior who doesn’t use just one button in the most boring way, dynamic warrior play. But standards are such, that without sp based items being a warrior feels lackluster. The answer is not, just be a mage. The fundamental balance and assumptions made toward sp give mages a significant boost in resource ability. They can enter a battle with full sp, nuke for 2/3 turns, use a sp regenerator, cast 4 spells, then another 2 SPells. And while casting those be regenerating mp to keep the assault going. Also wasn’t the whole point of SPells to give warriors burst damage because just clicking attack isn’t dynamic. I remember that being the case. Being too punishing on warriors to solidify a mage identity when mages are already the most powerful players could be. Which brings up another point, why not train INT over END?

The main use I want for my skill points is to enhance to weapons, pets, guests, and misc that shouldn’t be a mage thing. It should definitely be a warrior thing. And you know, what everyonce in a while I do want to use a skill. Because I’m level 150 annd I should be skillful. Not fighting to have enough sp to have my full arsenal active for a few turns. And sp costs are so high that it’s not really feasible to save up for an SPell. Which were created for warriors. No one, wants to get celerity in a skilled armor and have their abilities turn off mid way through the 2 turns. That’s not a mage problem. It just makes playing as a warrior not fun. It’s not that it isn’t for me. It’s that the design choices have been so focused on creating an “identity” that warriors either pay a mountain of sp (and I’ve been turning up Reddit and YouTube and it’s not just my warrior build, it seems to be how warriors function practically in game regardless of the assumption. That’s something to take note of) in every other gam, warriors can use skills and aren’t heavily punished for it. In this game Mages get the best utility out Spells and SPells. Which is not a good thing. In most games skill points would be tied to strength as warriors will obviously need it more than mages as weapons, armors, shields, pets, and guests and misc items all rely on sp. and granting a mage access to all of that and telling a warrior to be a mage if he wants that is bad. It’s frustrating. Further from an RP perspective I don’t want to be a mage, or a paladin, or a necromancer, but kinda get pushed into those things because lack of good options.

Ward, without dragging charisma in. How is the extra 3 k hp useful in practical terms when standards don’t assume 0 END builds will need to heal over the course of 2 battles. Besides as a resource.

Creating an identity should come after finding an enjoyable one. And if my options are play as a mage or not empower my item, I’ll just see myself out my warrior made it to 150, after 20 years my mage hasn’t . Neither of those are acceptable outcomes. And I’d rather not waste my time or devs and certainly not my money. Before the creation of this identity warriors have relied on the essence orb. Rather than remaking wheel, why not find an identity that actually fits the way people want to play the game. I’m endeared to you all for keeping the game going. Realistically, though I’m an adult who barely has time to close his eyes much less be upset with the developers of one of my favorite childhood games. Just don’t have time for it. But I really hope that you’re hearing me, not to defend yourselves but in terms of what attracts players and what drives them away. Even if I don’t keep playing, I’d like to pop my head in on frostaval and see if anything is good. In fact, it was my aim to see if we couldn’t create a second golden era of AQ. As it stands, it seems the Essence orb changes when they will come will again be the end of my time back. I’m not going to slough through enemies in an undynamic way to fit balance standards. Not gonna do it. And the base play of warriors without sp isn’t fun. Which is what should be addressed. Everyone can click the attack button. It doesn’t make warriors special if that is all they do.

Devs should never heavy handedly punish players for interacting with their game, which seems to be what happened with paralysis. I wasn’t around for it, and yet it detracts from my experience, and that of every new player.

Also Ward, The Wonder Emporium was lit! I can’t believe you remember! That’s soo cool!!!

< Message edited by taz_td88 -- 3/15/2024 15:22:09 >
AQ  Post #: 17
3/15/2024 16:45:13   
Dardiel
Member

I don't have a ton of thoughts on EO which seems to be a lot of the conversation but I did want to comment on other things that were brought up:

- On what END does - I believe there was some discussion about that during the stat revamp, and to my knowledge the effect of END is to basically warp the turn model in a way that you benefit from - if it normally takes the enemy 10 turns to do a full HP bar, 250 END means it takes them twice as long to deal the same damage which is basically the same as you dealing 2x damage. It's definitely easier to notice the effect of 2x HP when burning through it all in one turn compared to just "living longer", and I do personally like the flavor of blood magic and other blood powers, but even as just a passive stat it's very strong.

- On the optimal SP strategy being "go do a fight that matters less, then win with full SP, then do the fight that matters", I agree that it doesn't feel great. I've brought up the same issue with charge items (Book of Burns, Kindred, Neko), and I think it's fair for SP to also be considered. That said, it's likely a low priority change since I can imagine a lot of debate would surround "what should SP be at the start of each fight".

- On Freedom and stun windows, I think stun windows feel cool but are largely a bandaid that's put on top of other bandaids. Stun windows can easily be viewed as "you get punished if you can't apply a stun with high reliability", which means a ton of stun gear is still irrelevant (eg any "% chance each turn to stun" items and any % daze items) and the maybe-overpowered status potence is made even more relevant. I strongly believe that any sweeping "this enemy is immune to [thing]" like freedom and form shift immunity should be replaced by "this enemy is immune to the first X of every X+1 instances of [thing]" so that the overpowered strategies are brought to normal power levels rather than functionally deleted from consideration.
Post #: 18
3/15/2024 17:17:17   
taz_td88
Member

quote:

On what END does - I believe there was some discussion about that during the stat revamp, and to my knowledge the effect of END is to basically warp the turn model in a way that you benefit from - if it normally takes the enemy 10 turns to do a full HP bar, 250 END means it takes them twice as long to deal the same damage which is basically the same as you dealing 2x damage. It's definitely easier to notice the effect of 2x HP when burning through it all in one turn compared to just "living longer", and I do personally like the flavor of blood magic and other blood powers, but even as just a passive stat it's very strong.
I agree that it is a strong stat numerically, but also would argue it doesn’t have a practical advantage when it is assumed the enemy can be defeated in shorter terms. Investing in END instead of a more offensive option brings you to its value. But starting from a more offensive option, it really isn’t worth the switch. The monster would be dead before the benefits of endurance pay off. Which is one of the reasons I feel that absent conversion that extra hp is generally superfluous. STR/INT/LUK is currently the strongest combo I think. You don’t get maximum efficiency from pets and guest but you have spell fire power, status infliction success rate, lucky breaks, lucky strikes, sp to turn into more fire power, and you could always go bonk. But you’re probably never worried about dying. In the current stat set up I think Hybrid builds are the most incentivized with beast builds right behind them. However, without INT health becomes desirable because you need sp. There’s an sp reliance that feels baked into being a warrior but the stats don’t reflect it. I wasn’t really around enough to give feedback but I do wonder if there were any discussions on STR or DEX giving sp reductions, and END during backlash and giving backlash potency. That way the stats feed into how they were actively used. I’d go so far as to argue that the popularity of vampiric items show that the playerbase generally views extra hit points as best utilized as a resource and not for “living longer”.

As far the idea on Freedom I think that is definitely preferable to current state of the status. I like it a lot actually.

AQ  Post #: 19
3/15/2024 17:30:14   
  Lorekeeper
And Pun-isher

 

 I'd like to remind folks that all we have officially confirmed about the future of EO is:

- Not being able to use the lowest level version as effectively as (Or even more effectively than) keeping up with the adequately leveled one.
- As-yet unspecified usage limits so that EO can't be used to dump health for effectively infinite SP.

These are not unreasonable or build-destroying parameters. Essence Orb isn't being taken away. It'll still provide SP, just not a constant full supply. It does not take infinite SP for Warrior options to expand beyond simply clicking attack or be able to use a skill, and resources cannot be effectively infinite -- Having all possible sources of SP consumption active all the time would take away the tactical choice of leveraging the right ones. Which is not to say we're taking a wholly restrictive approach; we've implemented a baseline amount of SP every battle and released a fair amount of SP healing weapons.

We cannot say that builds are being punished, then, merely for being planned to not be able to rely on infinite resources or not needing to upgrade an item beyond level 5. There's not much room for growth from effectively infinite power, after all, nor any designing challenges for it without effectively making it mandatory.

Similarly, the Freedom status is not a punishment for stun items, but a functional necessity for keeping bosses distinct from a common frogzard. If an enemy can be stunlocked and deleted before ever acting, then it's not much of a boss -- It's an unfulfilling reskin of a training dummy with mechanics that may as well not have been designed, as they don't get to come up to mix things up for the player. In this case as well, we have been working to reintroduce some breathing room by experimenting with opportunities to stun bosses. There's definitely room to try out new things with this; the main concern is keeping bosses as worthwhile fights.

Balance standards are not some mandate that fights need to happen at a slow pace by clicking the attack button into a stupor. Please read the explanation of what they actually represent, as it covers all concerns posted in this thread so far.
Post #: 20
3/15/2024 18:50:14   
Aura Knight
Member

Is there risk of it turning into a "free" version of soul gauntlet? With that it's once a turn regen for sp to do 1 skill. Essence orb lacks the use penalty.

Percentage conversion of hp to sp could work. As an example let's try 10% of your max hp to 20% total sp. Twice a turn for a 20:40 ratio but the misc prevents your natural sp regen. This will put heal spells back to a point of relevance while letting high END more use with the misc but to a lesser extent as cost per conversion will be higher.
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 21
3/15/2024 19:11:43   
taz_td88
Member

I think build destroying relies on the question how do warriors currently use the Essence orb and why? Also I’d point out that the proposition of unlimited sp is flawed. It is limited, by health pool and enemy damage which are both very real and practical player concerns.

Tactical choice is plentiful in the current landscape. Those sp limits would tighten that tactical choice down. Bonk until SPell is ready and waste the points spent in CHA (pets don’t account for the majority of the damage attributed to CHA) or Try to upkeep a guest to use my CHA but never get enough sp for a misc or a weapon or a shield and certainly not a skill and what now I’m supposed to get one of those option from new essence orbs? The Kero armor has a skill that gives celerity if a monster is frozen. The other skill freezes the monster. Are these not meant to be used consecutively?and if I want to try and get most my resources back I would need to use all 3 skills before the sp heal. Sp healing weapons are a band aid on too strict sp parameters. I own 2. The reliance of the player base on the Essence orb says that players actively want more sp per turn, value hp better spent as sp, and suggest that the sp economy is too tight in practical terms.

It’s unfair to claim to be trying to create tactical choice but I can’t make full use of my cha without paying sp. Having the stat basically ensures that I will have a per turn cost before empowering anything or even using a misc item. And why do misc items cost so much? They should be expected like a shield and anything over that power pays an sp cost. It’s right there in my inventory designed for burn like burn pets. It being one of 8 choices was a tactical choice. I have two different fire burn misc in my active to try and make winter warden fun. Even the misc that says they have no cost still have a cost. I watch the sp come out of my bar. Then the effects have a cost too. The sp economy is too high for what a warrior wants to do realistically. Let’s say I don’t empower my weapons or armors. Why are they worth the slot in my inventory when there are options on par without an sp cost. Bloodblades for ex. But I shouldn’t be forced into blood magic because the economy is so tight.

I honestly do look forward to the progress on Freedom.

Loremaster you keep linking me to a thread I have a comment in. Not just a comment, the last comment which means my name is right next to the thread name. Which feels disingenuous. Two possibilities occur to me either that is a standard response or you question my reading comprehension. I choose to believe it is the former. My grammar may not be perfect as I draft this on my phone but please know, I’ve read and understood the post and in fact I’m relying on it. I understand how you define balance. But I’m talking about its practical effects and how that affects the player experience. Especially looking forward toward growth. And it is exactly the fact that new balance standards were created for classes in the name of fun, that I argue the same approach should apply to the EO. Doing otherwise I do not think will be good for game health regardless of what numbers say about it’s balance. Actually player feeling on something like this should be weighed heavier. As it points at a disconnect between what the players want and what the devs expect players to have in the basic assumptions.

Now initially I was very against a level 150 using a level 5 version. But now I think I’ve identified where the problem lies for me. As you level, things should get more efficient in cost. In makes sense that as an unskilled newb you can’t do much or do it efficiently. As far as low level essence orbs go, they should be the least efficient but deal in health terms small enough that newbies can get some use of it. But are excited to level up to get a more efficient version. Until 150.
AQ  Post #: 22
3/15/2024 19:41:20   
Ogma
Member

How about cap at 2 skills worth of SP, and misc becomes unusable for X turns where X is equal [SP Healed] / StandardSkillSPCost. If you're a Lvl 150 warrior and you heal 456 SP, EoB is locked for 1 turn (you can't convert); you heal 836 SP, EoB is locked for 2 turns. This way, there is a SP cap per EoB level, you can still get large enough SP to make a strategic play during a boss battle without being able to spam it easily, and you can "abuse" EoB for normal mobs since the misc lock reset between battle.
AQ  Post #: 23
3/15/2024 20:04:36   
  Lorekeeper
And Pun-isher

 

 Nothing quite so dry or dismissive; my apologies for the lapse in attention. The actual reason is I hadn't noticed the last reply. I've continually referred back the thread not out of any assumptions, but both due to the general topic and resource converters in the situation EO is currently in being a specifically mentioned example of a hindrance to the health of the game. A prime example of why EO qualifies for that being the ease with which Lv. 5 EO can allow for an easily outhealable health sacrifice to turn into a constantly full SP bar that can render enemy damage irrelevant through stuns or constant nuking. The game is not designed to have all builds mobilize a full SP bar to nuke every turn, as then they would all be both broken and indistinct in playstyle, while SP would become meaningless.

We are not out to dismiss player impressions, as the stat revamp's process should hopefully prove, but even while giving it its due importance, there are extremes we cannot reach. In such a situation, we might read from feedback that a situation needs to be addressed, while having the privileged position to see the pros and cons of taking the exact suggestions on the table. When that isn't an option, it doesn't mean that we're not weighing player feelings heavily enough -- We're still looking at the situation, but have to seek our own solutions while keeping player satisfaction as a priority.
Post #: 24
3/15/2024 20:08:28   
Grace Xisthrith
Member
 

 Not gonna really address many of the main points of this post, but I'm gonna regurgitate some intelligent thoughts I've seen in the past on essence orb so if staff look back post archmage when they get around to nerfing it they might see it :P
-Going from 0-full SP more than once in a turn is very abuseable
-Going from 0-full SP at all in a turn is very abuseable
-A reasonable cap on resource restoration is probably somewhere between ~200 SP and ~800 SP (depends on how much staff want to incentivize other SP regen options, higher cap would do that less, lower cap would do that more)
-The ratio of HP to SP current EO gets is approximately right, so that doesn't have to change much

-Since AQ has a whiny playerbase (go check my post history if you're not convinced teehee : p ), some might suggest EO changes should happen as softly as possible. Some ways to accomplish this are:
-Adjust the cap over time. IE: It's currently uncapped. Update the item, and cap it at 4x clicks, where X is the intended cap limit. A month later, update it to 3x clicks. Etc, until it's at the intended value. This softens the blow and helps players adjust. Personally, I suspect most players will realize they can still do a boatload of things turn one with even a greatly reduced SP influx from EO. I think there's some downsides to this, but in my opinion, the pros greatly outweigh the cons. I suspect if this approach was planned initially, it wouldn't take much extra developer time to adjust it (surely you'd just have to change a single variable to adjust it after the initial item is done, right?)
-Nerf part of the item, buff part of the item. An example of this would be to nerf the limitless aspect of EO, IE, give it a cap, but buff another aspect of it, like say, the resource restoration ratio. This could be accomplished in any number of ways (I'm a fan of throwing a 1 turn defloss effect per click, nerf dodge while we're at it), and would give the staff the ability to soften the blow by saying, "it's worse in this way, but better in this way." This definitely has some weaknesses as an approach, and I'm against powercreep, but if items that throw an additional 200% melee worth of choke on spellcast (or bleed, or pris burn), maybe working against powercreep is a losing battle so whatever
-Another option for buffing part of EO is giving it a once per battle effect as an MC. Something like "first click heals extra 50% melee SP" for example would be pretty well loved while also being balanced. Again, powercreep
-Another option for buffing part of EO is giving it a second mode. Skip your turn instead of paying HP for SP. Downside is it's not quickcast, upside is it's super efficient. Again, powercreep, but I'm just spitballing, I'm not a game designer. The idea is, nerf the item, soften the item nerf by bringing in something new to it

Weird and wacky ideas
-People have said it's kinda annoying the idea of having to do multiple fights / multiple turns instead of just refilling your whole SP bar and going to your next fight. Could this be solved by a monster power trigger, or monster level trigger? IE if the monster power is 1 or less, give it full ability to regen SP completely, or if the player greatly outlevels the monster, give it full ability to regen SP completely (don't make it work the opposite way so I can still do unbeatables though teehee : p ). Super scuffed idea but idk someone could make it work without making boss fights hard to balance
AQ  Post #: 25
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