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The Cycle of History

 
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11/5/2011 8:41:46   
goldslayer1
Member

The Cycle of history has been around for a very long time.
from heal loop, to str merc, to str BH, to focus, to support builds, and now to str TLM.

this isn't a discussion of balance. this is a discussion of history and what keeps coming back in a vicious cycle.

at first, a player made a really good build, Heal Loop to be exact.
what happened after that? well lots and lots of players switched to tech mage and used heal loop (as the items available at that time allowed it, like frostbane, founder, imperial acp, E bunnyzooka)

then lots of players came on the forums and complained about it being "OP"
and they said it was because there were too many of them. and they said the build was OP.
even tho most people now regret that heal loop was nerfed and want it to come back.


later on we have str Merc, a class with a build capable of two turning most players with low hp and low resistance
and people liked fast builds, so they changed to str merc, however thats only because the items at that time allowed it
frost breaker, cyber shellilagh, boomstick, skullfire, founder, bunnyzooka

later one people got on the forums and called them Oped saying there was alot of them and that they could two turn people.
yes that was true, however they would also loose alot.

ur average str merc back then got 70%-80% a pro would get 80%-85%
however at that time people were blinded enough to not see that str Bh was the top dog at the time anyway.
while str merc could two turn, str BH could get the same amount of kills but with 95% and up.

and people got on the forums and complained about str merc saying it was OP when it wasn't.

later on we go to str BH. str Bh remained ontop with almost no competition.
at the time when frostbite claws came out many people bought the claws, and those usually went str BH.
back then it was like 40% str bh 40% str merc, 20% mage. (that is ofcourse after str merc build became popular and str Bh builds got out) and once again these builds became over populated because items allowed it e.g. frostbite claws and frostbolt blaster.

however not many complained about this one, i myself was one of the few who would complain, but not mostly about the class, but mostly about the fact that people said str merc was OP and str BH wasn't. so i use to complain alot on that.

then it comes to focus, focus was nerfed
this build was popular with every class. and would get high % all the time and would have high chances of winning against any class/build by just relying on the robot. whether it goes from relying on robot and tanking, or relying on robot and healing at same time (BH), or just plain damage.

many people complained about this (those that weren't focus atleast) because at the time focus only required spamming robot to win a battle and get high %s.

later one we have support builds, people complained about support builds being "OP"
so they got field medic nerfed. now i dont think support builds were OP, i just think the luck factors of critting of critting 1-3 times a match was.

but people complained about support and field medic got nerfed. later one many complained about field medic getting nerfed (basically they regret that fact that it got nerfed because they complain about support)
and people regretted it.

now it comes down to str tlm.
many people are complaining about this build.

now lets remember that when someone makes a good build others will copy it. and if the items that are out atm are good, then people will copy that build. (like it happened with str BH frostbite claws and frostbolt blaster), (then str merc frostbreaker, and skullfire along with cyber shelillagh and boomstick later on)
then people change to that class and all start using those similar builds.
the rest of ED that isn't with that class or build will asume the class/build is OP
it is a common mistake made many times.


the solution to this (which i suggested many times before (NOT suggesting it now) however people say its a horrible idea)
is not being able to see an enemy's build or another player's build.
if u cant see other player's builds ingame, there wouldn't be build copying. and then the game wouldn't have so many people class changing when that class becomes popular.

this also meant that the game would be way more balanced. but thats not what this thread is about.

this thread it about the cycle of history.

so what do u think about the cycle?
do u agree with it?
why or why not?

how long do u think it will take ED staff and the community to realize this?


EDIT: side question
is this post too long? :P


< Message edited by goldslayer1 -- 11/5/2011 8:52:55 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 1
11/5/2011 9:08:12   
TurkishIncubus
Member

quote:

at the time when frostbite claws came out many people bought the claws, and those usually went str BH.


:P very few ppl had both frostbite and frostbolt , they were best weps thats why they were very popular at those times.

The main reason most ppl changed to tlm is because devs show us the tlm skill tree before others, when ppl saw hybrid+reoute they started saying its oped without see other classes skills.

idk why ppl keep demanding nerf to tlm if tlm nerfed str bh will be the same(me and most of my friends will change to bh), now with str bh i only lose against tank tlm and some pro str tlm(yeah i can win the noob attack spamer tlms)

_____________________________

Epic  Post #: 2
11/5/2011 9:44:19   
DeathGuard
Member

quote:

heal loop, to str merc, to str BH, to focus, to support builds, and now to str TLM.

Order of classes: Tech Mage, Merc, Bounty Hunter, Focus ( Merc abused more than all)some mages and bh, Merc and some mages, TLM.
I must point out the class that has get the best builds and higher ratio is merc since the beginning but also bh is not behind from it, Tech Mages are not weak but neither to strong, only few builds work against the other classes, the problem with this class is the skill tree, I have complained a lot of times because is ridiculous how it is arranged, but I never heard thinking on a overhaul on it. Some players have changed to Tech Mage, the skill tree affects the skills tree varities there can be, here is a image from the tech mage's skill tree, here. If you click the link to the image, you will see the skills have a vertical connection between it except for plasma rain, don't you think it should be more free?
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 3
11/5/2011 9:50:12   
goldslayer1
Member

quote:

I must point out the class that has get the best builds and higher ratio is merc since the beginning


LOL
dude that is not true.
str BH always had higher % than str merc,
focus Bh also had higher % than focus mercs.
even professional focus users have admitted that their focus BH gets higher % than focus merc.
and mage is a class that requires understanding and thinking of strategy
if u have strategy and u understand ur class then ur % will be higher than the merc %. and higher than the Bh %
AQW Epic  Post #: 4
11/5/2011 9:53:42   
DeathGuard
Member

Dude I know that lol, not about bh better than merc, but about this
quote:

mage is a class that requires understanding and thinking of strategy
if u have strategy and u understand ur class then ur % will be higher than the merc %. and higher than the Bh %
I'm not saying it is a weak class or that I want an oped build, I'm saying the skill tree needs a change because the other classes skills tree are way more free in making one.
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 5
11/5/2011 10:03:17   
nico0las
Member

History repeats itself. We learn from the past to create a better future.
The answer to this problem is simply to get people to stop copying builds.
You're right though. People will abuse a build if the items released permit it.
Let's take the harvest reaper, for example: You can't give an item a base stat of 14 support and NOT expect support abuse.

Also, BH has always been, and will remain, the best class in this game. People claim TLM is the best. Is it really, or is it simply that one build that's good?

@aqwplayer Although tech mages DO require more strategy, the rewards are far better.
Mage is one of those classes that, if you can use it properly, it's the best there is.
Oh, and I believe you've forgotten support mage. It doesn't require much strategy, but it's a fantastic build.

< Message edited by nico0las -- 11/5/2011 11:19:06 >
MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 6
11/5/2011 10:06:22   
DeathGuard
Member

Also goldslayer1 see this
quote:

I must point out the class that has get the best builds and higher ratio is merc since the beginning but also bh is not behind from it
Seems you didn't read that
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 7
11/5/2011 10:12:30   
goldslayer1
Member

@death
u said merc gets the better builds and higher rations.
merc might have a one or 2 more build options than BH but Bh is still overall the best class.

quote:

Also, BH has always been, and will remain, the best class in this game.

yup, after the tlm nerf im going bh
along with some friends

quote:

People claim TLM is the best. Is it really, or is it simply that one build that's good?

yup its only that one good build that was copied alot.

< Message edited by goldslayer1 -- 11/5/2011 10:13:58 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 8
11/5/2011 10:14:11   
DeathGuard
Member

@GoldSlayer1: What do you think of TM's skill tree?
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 9
11/5/2011 10:16:30   
AQWPlayer
Member

It's not fair for a TM to need a lot of strategy to win against a noob TLM or BH that uses no strategy at all -_-
And if noobs can have a chance against pro TMs, then imagine going against full varium TLM/BHs?
AQW  Post #: 10
11/5/2011 10:18:12   
goldslayer1
Member

@death
well altho the skill tree goes down in straight lines and then one left extension from plasma rain to super charge.
i dont think its all that bad, the skill tree is made to be how the class was suppose to be used.
except the caster skills were never strong enough to back it up.
thats why support mage was made (which i dont think was an intentional build) which doesn't go very well with this skill tree.
1 because u waste a point on technician, bludgeon (some people use this tho), overloard, and plasma rain, and plasma bolt (altho this one is a base skill so idk)

quote:

It's not fair for a TM to need a lot of strategy to win against a noob TLM or BH that uses no strategy at all -_-
And if noobs can have a chance against pro TMs, then imagine going against full varium TLM/BHs?

no disrespect bud but everything has strategy. no class can win without strategy, and if u think tlm requires no strategy then u haven't been a tlm.

try outsmarting a techmage with Bh or tlm. because thats the only way u can beat them with str builds. unless its just pure luck on ur side.

< Message edited by goldslayer1 -- 11/5/2011 10:21:06 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 11
11/5/2011 10:19:10   
DeathGuard
Member

quote:

It's not fair for a TM to need a lot of strategy to win against a noob TLM or BH that uses no strategy at all -_-
And if noobs can have a chance against pro TMs, then imagine going against full varium TLM/BHs?

Absolutely true!
@GoldSlayer1: Why we must waste 3-5 skill points on skills we don't even use? It is not good to waste them, I wasted 3 skill points in my build, and I would want to allocate them in other skills but I can't, I want more skill tree variety!

< Message edited by DeathGuard -- 11/5/2011 10:25:44 >
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 12
11/5/2011 10:27:54   
AQWPlayer
Member

@goldslayer
Bounty Hunters and Tac Mercs can easily abuse copycat strength builds, then use the smoke, strike, strike, mass/frenzy strategy, which is close to no strategy compared to what we mages need to do. Why do you think there are so few TMs out there? It's because the class requires too much strategy, which gets you little results, unlike strength builds with BH or TLM.
AQW  Post #: 13
11/5/2011 10:29:14   
goldslayer1
Member

quote:

It's not fair for a TM to need a lot of strategy to win against a noob TLM or BH that uses no strategy at all -_-
And if noobs can have a chance against pro TMs, then imagine going against full varium TLM/BHs?


well i wouldn't call them a complete waste, i mean maybe u use the stun and it saves ur match.
maybe u used bludgeon.


either way support mage for me always had a couple of points to spare anyway, because i would use lvl 3 malf, lvl 6 DA, and lvl 5 field medic with a lvl 1 DM. then lvl 10 reroute.

quote:

Bounty Hunters and Tac Mercs can easily abuse copycat strength builds, then use the smoke, strike, strike, mass/frenzy strategy, which is close to no strategy compared to what we mages need to do. Why do you think there are so few TMs out there? It's because the class requires too much strategy, which gets you little results, unlike strength builds with BH or TLM.

wow ur blind -.-
what do tech mages use from their skill tree?
field medic, malf, defense matrix.
then its gun and aux as fast as damage goes.

now lets look at tlm and BH

BH: smoke, cheapshot, emp, massacre, bloodlust
tlm: smoke, double strike, maul, atom smasher, frenzy

ur gonna tell me that tlm and BH requires no strategy when they have more attack options than ur average support mage?
more options = strategy involved.

u want to do a test and see if tlm can truly win without strategy?

fight as a tlm and always click the first skills all the way to the left. keep using that skill first option there for the rest of the match then tell me if u keep winning.

< Message edited by goldslayer1 -- 11/5/2011 10:33:37 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 14
11/5/2011 10:38:30   
AQWPlayer
Member

@goldslayer
Then you have just proven DeathGuard's point that TMs have limited options for builds.
Let's compare TM skills with TLM and BH skills.
Assimilate<Atom Smasher<EMP Grenade
Malfunction<SmokeScreen
SuperCharge<Massacre>Surgical Strike
Bludgeon>Double Strike>Cheap Shot


< Message edited by AQWPlayer -- 11/5/2011 10:41:58 >
AQW  Post #: 15
11/5/2011 10:49:41   
goldslayer1
Member

quote:

Then you have just proven DeathGuard's point that TMs have limited options for builds.
Let's compare TM skills with TLM and BH skills.

i guess u didn't read my explanation for that.

quote:

Assimilate<Atom Smasher<EMP Grenade
Malfunction<SmokeScreen
SuperCharge<Massacre>Surgical Strike
Bludgeon>Double Strike>Cheap Shot

malf will always be better than smoke.
it has a higher rate of progression and it runs on support which also affect energy aux damage and healing which played a huge combo for support mage.

u will never see a BH smoke 50s with a lvl 2-4 smoke.
but u can see tms do that.

also incase u didn't noticed i was discussing build vs build. not class vs class.
so next time please read.
AQW Epic  Post #: 16
11/5/2011 10:59:09   
AQWPlayer
Member

@goldslayer
How can you discuss OP builds without knowing WHY they are OP? It is the class (or skill tree) that allows the creation of overpowered builds.
Also, smoke has been way above malf ever since the support nerf. Consider this: what does tech do? and what does dex do?
Technology: boosts the character's energy resistance, and enhances certain skills
Dexterity: boosts defense, increases the chance to block, and it enhances certain skills
Also, don't forget that smoke is a tier 1 skill, despite being way above malfunction, while malf is a tier 3 skill.
AQW  Post #: 17
11/5/2011 11:05:31   
goldslayer1
Member

quote:

How can you discuss OP builds without knowing WHY they are OP? It is the class (or skill tree) that allows the creation of overpowered builds.

did u even read the original post?
its items and build copying that make builds over populated in ED.


quote:

Also, smoke has been way above malf ever since the support nerf.

this is history, im talking about prior to the nerf. even now tech mage isn't all that bad.

quote:

Consider this: what does tech do? and what does dex do?
Technology: boosts the character's energy resistance, and enhances certain skills
Dexterity: boosts defense, increases the chance to block, and it enhances certain skills

u seem to forget that its ur malf that reduces the effect of smokescreen.
malf also reduces robot damage and makes focus builds weaker which are still running around.
and seeing how u have defense matrix, our smoke is crap once u use ur defense matrix.

and so what if we have extra chance at block when we smoke u. ur main weapons are unblockable so why are u QQing?

not to mention that with all the luck factor crap u might aswell block more than me with less dex than me blocking u with more dex -.-

quote:

Also, don't forget that smoke is a tier 1 skill, despite being way above malfunction, while malf is a tier 3 skill

we're at lvl cap, tiers dont really matter at that point.

< Message edited by goldslayer1 -- 11/5/2011 11:07:09 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 18
11/5/2011 11:10:27   
DeathGuard
Member

@Gold: You're stating support build proves all your points, but caster skill builds, supercharge builds, assimilate builds proves it too? I don't think so
Mages need way more strategy to find a good build to match their weapons, match their pvp style, match their skill tree. Tlms needs no strategy for me, it must not be called a strategy but a pattern, I bet you that if I become a tlm/bh, you will see me almost everyday in LB but the thing is I don't like easy classes.
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 19
11/5/2011 11:17:27   
AQWPlayer
Member

quote:

we're at lvl cap, tiers dont really matter at that point.

It does. Deadly Aim is a tier 4 skill, and we need to waste 2 skill points in order to get it.

quote:

u seem to forget that its ur malf that reduces the effect of smokescreen.

Not by much. And also, the enemy is almost guaranteed to use assault bot right after malf -_-.
quote:

malf also reduces robot damage and makes focus builds weaker which are still running around.

By how much? 4-6 less damage for a -40 malf?
quote:

and seeing how u have defense matrix, our smoke is crap once u use ur defense matrix.

Extra rage for the enemy while we put on defense matrix and while it is on -_-
quote:

and so what if we have extra chance at block when we smoke u. ur main weapons are unblockable so why are u QQing?

Your main weapon is primary, not unblockable.
quote:

not to mention that with all the luck factor crap u might aswell block more than me with less dex than me blocking u with more dex -.-

Not my fault
quote:

did u even read the original post?
its items and build copying that make builds over populated in ED.

Wrong. It is the skill tree that allows such builds to be created. Without a good skill tree, how could you possibly make a good build, even if you had 100+ stat mods?
quote:

this is history, im talking about prior to the nerf.

And i'm talking about the present, which is affecting me RIGHT NOW.
AQW  Post #: 20
11/5/2011 11:18:29   
goldslayer1
Member

quote:

You're stating support build proves all your points, but caster skill builds, supercharge builds, assimilate builds proves it too? I don't think so

see im talking about support vs str BH/tlm builds and u come out of nowhere with caster/supercharge builds.

but fine.
lets talk.
first off supercharge as far as i know is a caster skill therefor goes with caster build.
i seen some good caster builds out there.
most are a mix of small malf and lvl 6-10 reroute along with plasma bolt and focus.

malf, robot/plasma bolt, gun, aux.

theres also better tanking thru dex, with a powerful stun and lots of blocking along with an hp regaining supercharge.
and after what happened in alpha with supercharge im not surprised that its the weakest one now.
AQW Epic  Post #: 21
11/5/2011 11:25:51   
goldslayer1
Member

quote:

It does. Deadly Aim is a tier 4 skill, and we need to waste 2 skill points in order to get it.

if u used a staff one of those skills wouldn't be a "waste" i seen real good support mages use overload.

quote:

Not by much. And also, the enemy is almost guaranteed to use assault bot right after malf -_-.

15 smoke isn't much?
it might not sound like much because smokescreen has a slower progression so it takes alot more to take out alot more.

quote:

By how much? 4-6 less damage for a -40 malf?

still better than nothing isn't it?

quote:

Extra rage for the enemy while we put on defense matrix and while it is on -_-

calculate his rage and heal before -.-

quote:

Your main weapon is primary, not unblockable.

support mage main weapons are gun and aux.
im not talking about primary. im talking about weapons used in main strategy which is gun and aux.
really ur primary is used only for malf almost all the time.

quote:

Wrong. It is the skill tree that allows such builds to be created. Without a good skill tree, how could you possibly make a good build, even if you had 100+ stat mods?

and its players that connect the skills together. which is then copied by other players.
u think heal loop would had been called OP if people didn't copy it?
of course not because most wouldn't have even known about it.
they wouldn't have said the build/class is OP, they would have said the person who made that build is a great build maker/strategist.
the same goes for modern str BH.

if people didn't copy it then it would never be seen as OP but rather have the original maker be called a good build maker.


quote:

And i'm talking about the present, which is affecting me RIGHT NOW.

use a bigger field medic


EDIT: whoops double post

< Message edited by goldslayer1 -- 11/5/2011 11:27:48 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 22
11/5/2011 11:27:01   
DeathGuard
Member

quote:

wow ur blind -.-
what do tech mages use from their skill tree?
field medic, malf, defense matrix.
then its gun and aux as fast as damage goes.

now lets look at tlm and BH

BH: smoke, cheapshot, emp, massacre, bloodlust
tlm: smoke, double strike, maul, atom smasher, frenzy

ur gonna tell me that tlm and BH requires no strategy when they have more attack options than ur average support mage?
more options = strategy involved.

Lol, now you're contradicting yourself, first you said TM didn't use so much from their skill tree, but then you said this
quote:

seen some good caster builds out there.
most are a mix of small malf and lvl 6-10 reroute along with plasma bolt and focus.

malf, robot/plasma bolt, gun, aux.

theres also better tanking thru dex, with a powerful stun and lots of blocking along with an hp regaining supercharge.
Dude clarify me your opinion because you are contradicting yourself.
Also to contrast your previous replies, tech mage don't uses that variety of skills because the skill tree is ridiculous arranged, it just goes well with support, but spamming one same stat is pathetic, don't you think? At least myself I don't spam one whole stat to win against my opponent.
ALL I WANT IS TECH MAGE'S SKILL TREE TO BE ARRANGED, then you will see more TMs crushing all of the other classes, if one mage can win with the current build, imagine if it is revamped, get your heads up gold, tech mage will use more "skills" and you will be satisfied but you won't be satisfied when they crush you, just saying
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 23
11/5/2011 11:28:57   
AQWPlayer
Member

quote:

see im talking about support vs str BH/tlm builds and u come out of nowhere with caster/supercharge builds.

Out of nowhere? That's what you call taking things HOLISTICALLY xD
quote:

i seen some good caster builds out there.
most are a mix of small malf and lvl 6-10 reroute along with plasma bolt and focus.

malf, robot/plasma bolt, gun, aux.

How much energy does plasma bolt take? How much energy does reroute regenerate?? And most importantly, WHERE IS MY ROBOT EH!?
quote:

theres also better tanking thru dex, with a powerful stun and lots of blocking along with an hp regaining supercharge.

Smoke=less dex=less blocking. And where's the powerful stun? Your base resistance+armor makes overload weaker than primary. Hp regaining supercharge...indeed it does regenerate health (and it also ignores some resistance, I can't deny that), BUT it is not much better than overload (other than the 20 min dmg, but 20 dmg for 32 energy?) and it is no match agaisnt massacre, which regains a lot of health and also improves with your primary damage.
AQW  Post #: 24
11/5/2011 11:30:28   
goldslayer1
Member

quote:

quote:

wow ur blind -.-
what do tech mages use from their skill tree?
field medic, malf, defense matrix.
then its gun and aux as fast as damage goes.

now lets look at tlm and BH

BH: smoke, cheapshot, emp, massacre, bloodlust
tlm: smoke, double strike, maul, atom smasher, frenzy

ur gonna tell me that tlm and BH requires no strategy when they have more attack options than ur average support mage?
more options = strategy involved.


Lol, now you're contradicting yourself, first you said TM didn't use so much from their skill tree, but then you said this

did u read it right (made a typo on fast meant far)
anyway i used an example. support mages main skills used are malf, field medic, and defense matrix.
thats not really much.

not sure if ur reading right.
AQW Epic  Post #: 25
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