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Stun grenade/Plasma grenade.

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3/22/2012 9:31:26   
Remorse
Member

This is not a balance discussion I just want to know if anyone uses these skills??



Why is it these grenades are so extremely weak compared to others???



To test this I obtained extreme technology around the same as caster mages.


YET still the plasma grenade (lvl1) still did less damage then the averge persons strike.....


Do you think these skills should be changed?

Or perhaps level scale more?


Personally I think the grenades should be revolved around getting decent dmagae at low levels of the skill.


for example growing the grenades from lvl 1-2 would grow in 2 damage but after that it only increases 1 damage per level.

This means the base dmaage for these grenades can be ALOT higher to actuly give some use to builds, but a downside is that if you wanted to use max grenades it would be a very ineffecient cost of skill points.

What do you guys think??

Do you think any other skill are outrageolsy weak?

< Message edited by Remorse -- 3/22/2012 9:32:53 >
Epic  Post #: 1
3/22/2012 9:46:02   
gangster a
Member

i think beacuse im bounty hunter ill try a high dex stun grenade build and ill come back to you how many battles i win out of 20. unfortunatley cant do it till the weekend.
AQ MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 2
3/22/2012 9:51:35   
Ranloth
Banned


 I'd say they pay the comprehension cost for being able to stun. They aren't fully damaging skills at all, their purpose is stun which isn't a free status.
AQ Epic  Post #: 3
3/22/2012 9:53:35   
Remorse
Member

^Yes but at what cost...



at least maul uses the primary damage...

Its hardly worth hitting only 3 damage for a CHANCE to do something e.e

Epic  Post #: 4
3/22/2012 10:31:47   
Calogero
Member

Might be because Stun Grenade/Plasma Grenade are both on a fixed stun chance...
Wether you do a lvl 1 Stun Grenade or a lvl 10, they both have a 30% chance to stun...

You can't really compare it with Maul because imo that skill is broken with its Defences Ignore and improving with Str...

_____________________________

Having a Signature is too mainstream
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 5
3/22/2012 11:28:36   
Stabilis
Member

To be honest, a strategy turn-based game should never have "stuns" or abilities to skip the opponent's turn. Especially in survival, chance to missing a turn... can cost your life. Also, by skipping your turn, technically means that you had no means of action to decide on. This makes no sense.
AQ Epic  Post #: 6
3/22/2012 13:35:36   
Midnightsoul
Member

You know, I've noticed the same thing too with the grenades having lower damage...I think the damage should be buffed equal to the other classes stuns.


-Midnightsoul
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 7
3/22/2012 13:42:59   
Ranloth
Banned


 @Remorse
At what cost? Of lower damage. You get 30% chance to gain a free turn of damage and not take any and that costs something. Deals 3 damage? Train it to get higher or use it just for Stun purpose thus Lvl 1 only. It will never be on par with damaging skills as it has effect which can save you - you make up for damage next turn. Yes it's a chance but in AQ, weapons have penality for their statuses and they don't always succeed (rolls) so we wait until special happens again or attack, you have a choice simply.
Maul is broken simply - let it stay as it is but 20% Defence ignored is a bit over the top so that's why it might be the best but blockable while Overload and both Stun Grenades are unblockable.

@Depressed Void
No stun in game? Why's that so? It's an advantage that can cost you life as well as you might not stun and be at disadvantage, thus strategy is required before using it at right moment and having some sort of back up plan if it fails. I find it useful at Lvl 1 even, if I'm sure to die next turn then I may as well as use Stun and maybe get lucky and even win (usually when I can rage next or hope for a crit).
AQ Epic  Post #: 8
3/22/2012 14:16:03   
rayniedays56
Member

Well, ever since the buff to technology, I have seen many Cybers now considering Tech as a good tool. Just look at ConQr. He uses high tech and a lvl 1 stun grenade. AND he nearly always stuns. :)
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 9
3/22/2012 14:19:12   
Stabilis
Member

^

Is he using Shadow Arts?
AQ Epic  Post #: 10
3/22/2012 14:21:23   
Sageofpeace
Member

i wish they lower the stun chance but increase on power like bunker that way spending energy and point on it be worth it
Post #: 11
3/22/2012 14:28:14   
rayniedays56
Member

Hold on. I think he was, but I was watching a You Tube video. I just know that he is awesome in Juggernaut. :)
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 12
3/22/2012 15:35:16   
Practel
Spectating from the Sidelines


 If you know how to play with Plasma Grenade, like I do, it can be incredibly battle turning and deadily. It is one of the key parts of my build, if not the most important skill.
DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 13
3/22/2012 15:39:08   
ScarletReaper
Member

It does pretty good damage if you malf or smoke first. :p
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 14
3/22/2012 16:36:56   
Stabilis
Member

quote:

No stun in game? Why's that so? It's an advantage that can cost you life as well as you might not stun and be at disadvantage, thus strategy is required before using it at right moment and having some sort of back up plan if it fails. I find it useful at Lvl 1 even, if I'm sure to die next turn then I may as well as use Stun and maybe get lucky and even win (usually when I can rage next or hope for a crit).


The fact that being able to stun is conditional on chance is both unwise to concede with but also because stuns do not allow strategy from the target affected. It would be tactical VERY much if stun was indefinite, but it is not. It is a chance barely contained by Shadow Arts which raises the luck and Support which lowers the luck. But luck is luck and luck is random and random is not strategical.

< Message edited by Depressed Void -- 3/22/2012 16:37:16 >
AQ Epic  Post #: 15
3/22/2012 17:14:04   
Ranloth
Banned


 I love your way of thinking, it's probabilities even if we consider stats. If stun chance is 30%, then 70% of the time it won't work - goes up/down depending on stats and skills. And what do you expect to see? It'll stun 3/10 times so luck must be involved there, it's a chance and it's not 100% so luck plays a role - quite simple. If you wanna take out luck from that then.. make it 0% or 100%.
AQ Epic  Post #: 16
3/22/2012 20:37:44   
PivotalDisorder
Member

a grenade with a 0% chance to connect, sounds awesome.

I broke down the differences between Overload and Stun Grenade in a Q&A topic and the main reason for Overload being cheaper and more powerful
is it can only be used with staff. the grenades can be used with wrist blades or a sword. I do not agree but that seemed to be the only explanation.
Post #: 17
3/22/2012 20:41:31   
Stabilis
Member

quote:

a grenade with a 0% chance to connect, sounds awesome.


Hummm, what I was picking at, what Trans stated, is either 0% or 100%, which is the probability of stunning. Damage is unphased and normal.

What I would like to investigate though, is what conditions would cause a grenade in the EpicDuel realm to either fail completely or perfectly stun. I was thinking, if one player's Support was 50 points greater than the target's... a stun would be inevitable.
AQ Epic  Post #: 18
3/22/2012 21:03:59   
ND Mallet
Legendary AK!!!


 @void Simple, if I hit you in the head hard enough then you'll be "stunned" in a way. But if I were to hit you in say the shoulder, you wouldn't be "stunned." It's an accuracy thing more or less. It looks like it hits the same spot every time but it doesn't.

Also, making a stun 100% would be a bad idea since Maul/Zerker works best when the stun works. Stuns reduce defenses by 15%(or was it 10%?) and remove the ability to block and deflect by 100% I don't really want people to spam low lvl stun skills knowing they'll stun me every attempt even if they have way lower support and then spam huge damage skills or blockable skills to get huge and easy damage all the time.

@topic The reason the grenades are weaker is because they have a chance to stun and are unblockable. Unless you want to be stunned and hit for 50+ damage after Malf/Smoke, I see nothing wrong with grenades being weaker.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 19
3/22/2012 21:50:00   
Stabilis
Member

quote:

@void Simple, if I hit you in the head hard enough then you'll be "stunned" in a way. But if I were to hit you in say the shoulder, you wouldn't be "stunned." It's an accuracy thing more or less. It looks like it hits the same spot every time but it doesn't.


True, in reality a concussion or concussive brain trauma could shut parts of the brain off, initiating someone into a coma; but maybe I was speaking vaguely, as I should have said what pliable conditions we could use, i.e. physics/biology logic is unnecessary in video games but does improve the reasoning. I was pondering about what realistic conditions, relative to the mechanics only found in EpicDuel we could use to declare stun as either 0 or 100% of chance... otherwise, I would have said sure, measure the force of the grenade thrown at the head, but we would need to calculate the velocity + momentum + thickness of the skull or the position of nervous networks touched and damaged!

This is why I would find attempting to incorporate physics into EpicDuel very challenging. But still, a good thought, definitely a possibility for EpicDuel if we become advanced in our technologies!

quote:

Also, making a stun 100% would be a bad idea since Maul/Zerker works best when the stun works.


I remember making that clear when I said there were conditions required to allow stuns to be 100% probable, such as when I said:

quote:

I was thinking, if one player's Support was 50 points greater than the target's... a stun would be inevitable.


Maybe I posted much too late or you missed my post, but I definitely would consider conditions and imbalance before allowing a stun to occur without lemons (lemons = failure). Another possibility for a condition for a stun to guarantee would be if the enemy had just used a melee skill and is not protected by a defence skill (i.e. Reflex Boost), would be a condition that permits a 100% chance of a stun.

< Message edited by Depressed Void -- 3/22/2012 22:01:38 >
AQ Epic  Post #: 20
3/23/2012 1:41:10   
endtime
Member

Overload isn't significantly stronger than Stun/Plasma Grenade (a few pts of extra dmg), but this is because Stun Grenade can be used with any weapon, which was particularly significant when swords were much better than their class-specific weapon counterparts. Maul is even stronger than overload because it is blockable and scaling the level does not improve damage, but only a probability.

I find all the stun moves except maul are incompatible and useless with most builds. The only scenarios I would use a stun is if I will definitely die the next turn and I can't do anything about it besides hope for a stun and win after the stun or if I am using a dex/supercharge build and overload can do reasonably strong damage. At a low level, a stun build usually leads to good results, but at high levels when most people have high defense/resistance, stun builds hit only 3 and if they don't stun, it's a waste of a turn.
AQW Epic  Post #: 21
3/23/2012 2:38:15   
ReconnaisX
Member

Back in the old days when I was a lvl 26 tech mage and I hit fifties with max overload and over-the-top dexterity...

Anyhow, Plasma and Stun Grenade need to be buffed. At least lower the energy requirement by two to make it on par with Overload. I can't compared Maul with this, it's too OPed when used at high levels. Anyway, BHs need to reserve part of their energy just to do a (weak) stun grenade, and who knows if it will even stun? CHs can use Static Charge; therefore some high level CHs use Plasma Grenade as a last ditch attack (almost always level one). One shouldn't compare Overload as TMs have reroute. And Maul? It's a last ditch attack as well, providing the Mercenary has some energy left.

Bounty Hunters have it bad with this one.
MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 22
3/23/2012 3:59:46   
Remorse
Member

Has anyone considered my idea?

Which is to improve the dmagae at lvl 1 of the skill but keep it ruffly similar to the damage it already is at max.


This means that the people argue it should not be strong will get what they wont because the maxed out level would be aprox the same.

But the level one damage could be alot higher at level 1 if they changed the damage level progression, making its mana cost two damage ratio for using the skill slightly more acceptable.


For example my plasma grenade now: (note: I have low 57 tech)

lvl 1: 33
lvl 2: 36
lvl 3: 38
lvl 4:40
lvl 5:42
lvl 6: 44
lvl 7: 45
lvl 8: 46
lvl 9: 47
max: 48

After Level progression change:
lvl1:38
lvl2:40
lvl3:41
lvl4:42
lvl5:43
lvl6:44
lvl7:45
lvl8:46
lvl9:47
max:48

As you can see there is the exact same max damage but the level one damage is 5 dmagae higher then before and it still increases by to dmagae in lvl 2 making this skill most effecient at lvl 1-2.
Making this skill worth having WITHOUT having to max it.


What do you guys think?

< Message edited by Remorse -- 3/23/2012 4:08:02 >
Epic  Post #: 23
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