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2vs2 Is Broken Go Fix It

 
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4/6/2012 21:51:54   
Emptiness
Member
 

I've been part of this game since it merged with Artix Entertainment and I've enjoyed it for 2 years or so, it's a great game socializing and meeting new friends, leveling up giving you a sense of accomplishment, creating new builds, and the strategy involved in every battle, I've enjoyed it all. But when we come to 2vs2 it's a complete mess and disgrace to this games image, unbalanced, trust issues, cheating, unfair battles, these are all problems that plague the mode which I most like. When you click the 2vs2 button you don't know what to expect now, I know this game is going through an unbalanced period of time, tank cybers, strength blood mages( that can easily hit 50s with they're gun), abusing stat mages, and abusing dex cybers, now what do you get when you put all these together in a 2vs2 match, complete chaos especially since these matches don't meet often they're usually against a pair of 30s or 31s, easy win. Another scenario though could be a lvl 34 blood mage against 2 34 varium cyber tanks and a lvl 29 novarium partner, just another waste of time and unfair loss. 2 34s should never be on the same team unless it's an all lvl 34 match, every match, players should at least have a reasonable chance of winning not.000001% and they need to crit, deflect, block every turn to accomplish that. 2 30s/31s against a lvl 34/33 now that's called juggernaut through in a partner for the 33/34 and now you have the players committing suicide.

Now a major problem in 2vs2 is running away or lag, your partner leave on purpose, battle failed to start, or disconnected, leaving you to fend off 2 players who's level could vary from easy win to I'm dead depending on the level, a 29 couldn't solo 2 30s, a 34 can't solo 2 34s without major luck. Now they're given an unfair loss that damages they're record, note that in at least 10 battles a player will lag out, you just now have to hope it's not your partner. now lets get to the cheating aspect, when Factions go for daily and they're vsing each other in 2vs2 the logical choice would be to just leave and get a faster win, but exactly how is this fair to the player? You may not care about getting a loss but they may, I've seen many top players I once respected doing this. Their is also the money aspect, if a player gets many loses due to one of these conditions they will get frustrated and frustrated, eventually think to themselves Why am I playing this game if I'm getting this mad? Then just quit, you've just lost a source of income for the game now. Now from my experience playing today I got 5 loses in a row due to unreliable partners, this is where trust comes into play, now why would you trust a complete stranger? You would trust someone random to just watch your child and expect him to be alright in the end so why is it different from here. We don't even know are partner he could be afk for all we know.

Okay if this was a relatively new game( 1 year old or so) then okay they could fix this in the future, but heck no this games been around for 3 years and more, has anything been done to 2vs2? Level range changing from 5 to 6 and more credits, that's really all I can remember. Now how is raising the level range from 5 to 6 exactly going to help balance, didn't make sense to me but please if someone could clarify I would be most extremely grateful. Now some people would think that 2vs2 takes double the amount of time to win 1 1vs1 match, that may of been true in the past but now I can tell you that it easily takes triple or even quadruply the amount of time to complete 1 2vs2 match today, yet nothings changed credits haven't increased nor has influence or tokens. Look at the 1vs1 and 2vs2 all time leader boards and compare them, 184551 win, the top 2vs2 player with the most wins isn't even close to that, not half not even a quarter of the wins that the top 1vs1 player has achieved. Why are we giving 2vs2 players double the amount of earning if the 2vs2 player hasn't even achieved half of 200k wins? This needs to be greatly increased. 3 years has passed now explain to me why I haven't seen change yet? Okay I get it it takes time to make major changes but I doubt it would take 3 years to complete them, others could come up with the excuse they're working on other updates. Well could they not put some time aside each week to work on it a little bit? Even if they worked on it little by little I would be contempt with the fact that they're trying to change 2vs2 for the better.

Now here are some simple solutions to the dilemma known as 2vs2, not showing loses at all just wins, unfair loses would not matter to players and they can continue to play happily or your your own partner, when entering a battle your partner would be a copy of yourself that you control, though you may only battle players your own level. Note I just came up with these solutions of the top of my head right this instant, I'm sure that with 3 years of time a way better solution could be brainstormed up. You could just go with the first option for the time being and when you figure out a solution swap it, leaving everyone with 0 loses, that way they're would still be some enjoyment in how good your record is, as you would need to be a great player to keep it at 90% or so. here is a battle from today, I'm a tech mage against to fully varium cyber hunters and my lvl 28 partner leaves, I'm not exactly using that oped tech abuse build just a simple balanced build, I'm delaying they're win as much as possible so that I can put up a fight. My tries are futile as they're out damaging me and both rage as well landing the final blow and giving me an unfair loss. When entering a match and it lags the first few seconds a player shouldn't be scared and praying that his partner isn't going to leave he should be enjoying himself. People say this game has potential over and over again but how much longer can it have potential?

Fellow players please post your experiences in 2vs2, has it made you leave, if it weren't for all the unfair matches would you still be playing 2vs2 and would it be your favorite mode? Post solutions, support or not support, would showing no loses be a simple solution?Why or why not? Why has nothing changed in 2vs2 in 3 years? Who is at fault?





Post #: 1
4/6/2012 22:00:57   
Cinderella
Always a Princess


This looks like a Rabblefroth question. If he hasn't made headway on level matching then he's at least got it on his list. I know he's working on a better matching system for Juggernaut as well.

The problem is that you can't account for your partner disconnecting whether by accident or design, which appears to have been the issue in your anecdote.

< Message edited by Cinderella -- 4/6/2012 22:01:31 >
Post #: 2
4/6/2012 22:00:54   
Mr. Black OP
Member

2v2 or 2v1? The title confuses me.
Never mind.

< Message edited by zman 2 -- 4/6/2012 22:15:45 >
Epic  Post #: 3
4/6/2012 22:10:11   
drinde
Member

@Cinderella

What about the often suggested idea that if one leaves before death, the rest get a win?
DF MQ Epic  Post #: 4
4/6/2012 22:13:41   
ND Mallet
Legendary AK!!!


@drinde So people leaving when they see their two other faction members on the opposing side will get a much faster battle? In a clutch situation, the team with one guy can manage to stall the other team long enough to change the leaderboards. If anything, making battles end and handing out wins to the team with both people when one person DCs will encourage people to abuse that to help their friends or factions get an easy win.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 5
4/6/2012 22:15:08   
Mr. Black OP
Member

Maybe bring in a npc at around the person's level that the player can control.
Epic  Post #: 6
4/6/2012 22:21:45   
My Name is Jake
Banned


2v2 and Juggernaut should also give at least 10 influence.
AQW Epic  Post #: 7
4/6/2012 22:23:34   
One Winged Angel1357
Member


@Zman the problem with that is most NPC's tend to be multiple classes which when you put a person who can use reason behind an NPC instead of the AI that runs them(they do think to an extend and they do change things up from time to time) they become incredible over powered
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 8
4/6/2012 22:45:16   
Lord Areswe
Member

Those who laugh last laugh the longest.
Be patiant 2v2 will be rebalenced...and rebalenced again....and again
I enjoy 2v2 matches for the rare occasion that my partner has a build that works well with mine
But then again we have the problem with "runners" people who run way when the battle goes against them
I have had my internet cut out a couple times and both times I felt terrible about leaving my partner.
Maybe a good solutian is to have the remaining player earn X2 exp and gold at the end of the battle but I'm just throwing that out there.


_____________________________

So here we have option one:Stand here and do nothing FOREVER. or option two...you should definitely push that button
AQ MQ Epic  Post #: 9
4/7/2012 7:02:01   
drinde
Member

Here's a new (I think) idea:

Instead of making the mode based on LV, make it based on the EQUIPMENT LV of the players. As in: A person using LV31 weapons would be matched with others using the same equipment. This could be applied to a range of +/- 3.

Of course, to stop the LV34s from being devious (as usual) and using low level weapons, the +/- 6 Range LV cap would still apply.

The EQUIPMENT LV =

Weapons LV + Armor LV Divided by 4
DF MQ Epic  Post #: 10
4/7/2012 7:04:26   
Hun Kingq
Member

Couple of other things that was not mentioned is the dummying, it happens especially on the less populated servers, players come in with no side arm, no aux, and no armor, that should be a requirement for 2vs2 at high levels, making their partner carry the load, and the multiple strike skills not up to par with each other or that they do less potential damage then a single shot skill.

Then we got players that play the tech mage with no malfunction coming in 2vs2 because they think it is a useless skill. Give the Blood Mage malfunction for a week so we can show them how useful that skill can be with Plasma Rain.

The connection lost is not on our end it is happening with the Epic Duel Servers and it started after they implemented locking the lower servers until the upper servers get full enough to open the lower servers. Sometimes when I am in 2vs2 and there is a population changes to a server especially the two upper I get connection lost. Due to overwhelming amount of connection lost and skipped turns I have a huge amount of unfair loses. I am running a high end gaming system with a super high-speed fiber optic connection.

Due to focus more on 1vs1 and the staff not playing in 2vs2/2vs1 matches we can blame the staff especially the balance team they are the ones that should be going into the matches and see what is going on and how to fix it. Even the programmers should be going into 2vs2/2vs1 especially the lead programmer not from the office but from their home.


< Message edited by Hun Kingq -- 4/7/2012 7:06:02 >
Epic  Post #: 11
4/7/2012 7:13:33   
PivotalDisorder
Member

Rabblefroth is also aware of the situation with level capped players getting a low level partner against 2 level capped players.

one issue with adding new filters like a "total stats bracket" is the queue. how badly will it effect it? on one hand, many of us
repeatedly get bad matchups, and would happily wait a bit longer for a more evenly matched fight, but maybe we are being
thrown into so many bad matchups cause their isn't enough players to choose from to make the matches fair.

also their is no measurable value on a players ability at the game.
Post #: 12
4/7/2012 8:07:38   
MirageD
Member

2v2 is my favorite battle mode also....i personally don't care about my loss record, so i don't see an advantage of not counting losses when someone runs/disconnects.....i think the primary problem is with the level spread and ppl entering the mode with no equipment/armor...i agree that the partner disconnects are really annoying but i'm not sure how to fix that

~mira
AQW Epic  Post #: 13
4/7/2012 8:12:02   
SouL Prisoner
Member

Solving 2v2 prob, is totally simple ....just reduce the level difference , now its level 6 difference , make it level 3 or 4 difference , that would be totally solving all the prob of 2v2 , at least 90% of them for sure .

_____________________________

AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 14
4/7/2012 8:15:15   
Stabilis
Member

If a player is alone, give them double turns, but cooldowns and warmups must be single turns.

Also, if the level difference, like Soul Prisoner mentioned is smaller, maybe 4 levels difference at the greatest, encumbrance will make it more fair.

< Message edited by Depressed Void -- 4/7/2012 8:16:48 >
AQ Epic  Post #: 15
4/7/2012 9:34:07   
King FrostLich
Member

Fighting your own faction members is also part of the issue in 2v2. Seriously, I don't like fighting my own faction members since either side gets 5 influence for the faction.

_____________________________

Epic  Post #: 16
4/7/2012 9:34:44   
Angels Holocaust
Member

Fixing 2 vs 2 is simple, just allow us to pick our partners.
Post #: 17
4/7/2012 9:40:48   
Ranloth
Banned


I have fun solution, although 2v2 could become lengthy process instead of current 2v2..
What if when you press 2v2, there would be a window with waiting players you can pick from, sorted by level, but you wouldn't be able to see their stats as it'd be picking OP builds all the time. If it was 2 players with Lvl 34, then total is obviously Lvl 68. After you picked a partner, you could find other pairs that are ready to duel and have the same total level as you do. So it could be 32 and 31 and 34 and 29. Same thing and difference in power exists so if not that then difference in levels could not be more than 3 Levels, so 31 and 34, 33 and 30, 32 and 29, etc. + it'd have to match other player's total level in same manner.
It could work with total stats but it'd be hard to find a pair with similar or same amount of total stats so it could be either done by similar range of stats (~10 stat points difference) or looking at enhancements only.

Also you could not fight with the same partner every battle, he'd not be able to pick again for next 5 fights or something to keep it fair and not able to abuse it.
AQ Epic  Post #: 18
4/7/2012 9:47:07   
SouL Prisoner
Member

@ Angels Holocaust


quote:

Fixing 2 vs 2 is simple, just allow us to pick our partners.


The difficulty would be the same as now ... how??

U go with level 34 AND so will the others of level 34's do , and then , who would ally with low level players??? and same case with the non variums , high level or low level .

2v2 ally is fun , but not a perfect solution or balance format ...
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 19
4/7/2012 10:05:40   
PivotalDisorder
Member

@Trans: what about simply a 2v2 mode for level capped players [separate button of course]
Post #: 20
4/7/2012 10:10:36   
Ranloth
Banned


My idea could work as a Challenge mode, so not counting towards wins/loses. As it'll destroy 2v2 completely (pairing players) due to time it takes to match up players. And it could work at all level ranges.
Mind that, it's a Suggestion so I won't touch on it as it's wrong Forum. :)
AQ Epic  Post #: 21
4/7/2012 13:13:52   
  RabbleFroth
Member

There have actually been a number of 2v2 matching changes since I joined the team. Not to say that matching is perfect (it never truly can be), but I would like to think it is quite a bit better than it was a number of months ago. The matching system now attempts to place you in the best possible match (based on level) that it can when you queue, instead of the previous method of just placing you in the first match that it found that met your level criteria. It also used to be possible to be in a match with someone +/- 7 or 8 levels away from you. This can no longer happen.

That all said, I'm always listening for ways to improve the matching system. In the near future I would like to run a poll regarding matching to get some better feedback on what you all think is the most important aspect that needs improvement.

To start off though, would you be willing to wait longer (possibly much longer) for a match if it meant you generally are very closely matched with the other players in a 2v2? This means that in a given amount of time, you would be able to play fewer numbers of battles, but on average they should be closer fights.
Post #: 22
4/7/2012 13:30:44   
rej
Member

quote:

@drinde So people leaving when they see their two other faction members on the opposing side will get a much faster battle? In a clutch situation, the team with one guy can manage to stall the other team long enough to change the leaderboards. If anything, making battles end and handing out wins to the team with both people when one person DCs will encourage people to abuse that to help their friends or factions get an easy win.


Not necessarily. Remember, the person who exits/is disconnected still receives a lose.

I like your suggestion, Drinde. It would definitely a wide range of 2v2 related problems.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 23
4/7/2012 14:00:32   
PivotalDisorder
Member

quote:

To start off though, would you be willing to wait longer (possibly much longer) for a match if it meant you generally are very closely matched with the other players in a 2v2?

@Rabblefroth: I would like to see how bad the queue would be if you tightened the noose a little.

1v1 is bad, but 2v2 is horrible most fights purely because of big gulf between teams. this doesn't just mean level either. you get lower level players with top gear and enhancements and
players with just basic primary and nothing else. as most of my characters are level capped [or close] what effects me the worst is level 29 partners vs 2 34s :) I'd vote that be fixed.
Post #: 24
4/7/2012 14:18:13   
Fay Beeee
Member

quote:

To start off though, would you be willing to wait longer (possibly much longer) for a match if it meant you generally are very closely matched with the other players in a 2v2? This means that in a given amount of time, you would be able to play fewer numbers of battles, but on average they should be closer fights.



How about a choice. Normal or more balanced. Two, 2v2 buttons.?

Just a thought. Might be too complicated to programme though.

_____________________________

Epic  Post #: 25
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