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5/12/2013 12:05:04   
  Exploding Penguin
Moderator


I spent some time thinking about it, and I've finally developed a thesis on why Epic Duel is in decline, and I'm going to share it in this thread. Please note that majority of this is speculation and opinion, and that I do not mean to discriminate or state non-constructive criticism about the staff.

Before Omega, Epic Duel had an extremely wide gap between varium and free-to-play users. The varium players (most of the varium players are the ones who are leaving) in previous phases had things such as enhancements, class changes, name changes, and other such things that made the game more enjoyable for them. While we were all eagerly waiting for Omega, some of us expected great things from it, and others feared the new features brought. Unfortunately, the newer features have made more of a negative influence rather than a positive one. I believe that the sole reason for why Epicduel is in decline is that HP was moved from 2 points per stat investment to 1, making the stat much, much harder to invest in. This is because since everyone had less HP (no stat enhancements also helped lower defenses of players), people were dying much faster. The shorter fights are, the much harder it is to balance them since there are an infinite number of possibilities on how these short wins/losses end in. Therefore, to make fights longer, the staff team nerfed many skills.

Why are shorter fights bad?

Shorter fights are much harder to balance and just not as enjoyable as they result in less tactical skills being used. It's very hard to predict your opponent since the fight ends quickly with the opponent still having lots of different options during their turn, particularly with the new core system where you don't even know what cores your opponent has. This resulted in builds that could output high amounts of damage over the first few turns becoming far too strong, and thus they had to be nerfed.

Skill Cores...just why?

So... the staff team stated that they chose to implement skill cores rather than new classes (or a singular new class). This doesn't make any sense in my opinion. The staff team said that it was because it was already too hard to keep balance among the 6 current classes, but active skill cores are pretty much the exactly same thing as a new skill in a new class, except that ANY class can use it without the opponent knowing what core(s) you have, making skill cores much harder to balance since you have to make them work for all 6 skill trees rather than for an individual one. I believe that new classes would actually have been much more appealing to the users and much easier to balance. Passive skill cores are also not too great of an idea because it leaves many wins in fights up to luck rather than the skill that was required in previous phases.

The effect of all the nerfs

Since Omega, many skills have been nerfed, and only a few buffed. Those that were buffed were probably buffed with the intention of making fights longer (such as assimilation removing EP). Percentage-based skills were nerfed, particularly massacre. Bunker was nerfed. Malfunction was nerfed. Damage output was nerfed for aux, gun, primary, and robots. Poison attacks were buffed but were also nerfed more because you can field medic out of them. Enhancements were taken away as well, which is somewhat like a nerf in itself. So, what do these nerfs do? They make the game less exciting. We can no longer hit those joyously high 90s when we use our aux on support-abuse builds, we can no longer make 140 energy caster builds, we can no longer have fun with those 200 HP builds, we can't make strength-abuse builds with fun guns like dage's boomsticks, and many more builds. The lack of enhancements reduces the capacity for build creativity, and this leads to many players at a loss in this new and complicated system, resulting in lots of unfavored build copying. But, the main idea is that because of the nerfs, there is less excitement and just in general fun in the game. Therefore, because some of this was lost, many players (particularly var players who previously had enhancements) left and stopped playing ED.

To sum it up
This is actually shorter than most of my similar posts, but I feel I've explained the main points. The general idea is that since everything was nerfed/removed, there were less options for creativity and things such as "epic damage," removing fun and excitement from the game, making it lose much of its previous appeal. I believe Omega was approached the entirely wrong way, by choosing to remove enhancements, changing the HP and EP stat point investment system, and by choosing to implement skill cores instead of new classes. The way it's going now, ED is just going to keep getting nerfs in every skill until it's pretty much dead. The only way for it to be saved is to bring back excitement into the game by doing things such as creating a mass amount of new skill cores at once that are all pretty balanced, and/or by buffing most skills while keeping the classes balanced among each other. Another option would be to take some current skill cores that exist or that the staff have ideas for, then remove all skill cores and create new classes with active and passive skills with the same ideas.
Epic  Post #: 1
5/12/2013 12:33:44   
goldslayer1
Member

good post.
and yeah i do understand why alot of varium players are leaving.
ED basically took away their power.

and the removal of the amount of stats we had has removed some of the creativity.

they removed enhancements, lowered the HP/EP progression, and introduced cores thinking that they would get more strategy (and longer battles) but it turned out to be the opposite.

now there is less fun in the game, less creativity, and less strategy.
balance wasn't perfect before, but atleast there was more fun and strategy than there is now.

i think another thing that maybe affecting ED is how they spend time with other updates instead of improving the game.
there are things that need improvement or fixing (such as 2 vs 2, juggernaut mode, faction improvements) and they are focusing more on their egg hunt and arbogeddon events.

i think they should focus more on improving things that help them long term than rather short term.
because if u improve a feature, then its there forever. arbogeddon was only here for like 2 weeks.

perhaps arbogeddon may be important in terms of short term success (i.e. quick cash flow) but its not gonna help u in the long term.

< Message edited by goldslayer1 -- 5/12/2013 12:42:31 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 2
5/12/2013 15:28:30   
Cyber Dream
Member

I think I know why they impleted skill cores. To make players buy varium. Epicduel devs WANT epicduel to be a pay to win game. Im assuming the reason they impleted cores instead of a class was because cores can be developed very easily than classes and can be made quicker. On top of that, they can make the cores overpowered for the promo weps forcing players to buy them and then nerfing them. Just a strategy they came up with to keep the sales of varium up. Makes since right? If varium was just only a shortcut to buy stuff wouldnt players stop buying it? Untill the devs come up with a different way to sale varium, the game will keep losing players simply because. It's like they are bribing us with cores. I see it as pay to win because you have to pay for the varium to recieve the powerful unique core that come with the promos. Just take the cores out the promos and put them in the futre core shop. That could be a big step. Another reason I think they choose cores over classes was because you can include classes in a promo. Now that will just throw the fact that the game is still pay to win out there. THE DEVS really should listen to our thoughts about these luck based, overpowered cores. Just as worse as enhancements. I still cant believe they release cores in promos and make them avaliable in the next year. Thats idiotic, im surprised none of the players that were complaing during delta about paying to win never said anything about this.
AQW Epic  Post #: 3
5/12/2013 15:40:24   
Drianx
Member

When expectations are high, disappointment will be high. That's the issue with Omega.

For me the highest disappointments were the compensation (I will always keep saying that) and the initial disorientation that ate up all my varium - about 20k at that time.
AQW Epic  Post #: 4
5/12/2013 16:38:58   
Stabilis
Member

I am glad that you stated that the main post was mostly "speculation and opinion" as you had around 66% accuracy on the topics.

< Message edited by Depressed Void -- 5/12/2013 16:39:27 >
AQ Epic  Post #: 5
5/12/2013 16:42:17   
EnlightenedSpirit
Banned


Nice post.
After three years of playing this game I can say that the team is very lazy when it comes to balance
and features. They dance around the problems with balance by giving temporary solutions and when those temp. solutions
don't work anymore they come up with some more temporary solutions. Since omega has happened there has been one tournament and it wasn't even
for everyone. There has been no update to factions, no new incentives. I've been waiting forever for them to do something with the arcades. Everyone has forgotten about em
but I haven't. Omega brought nothing new whatsoever except cores and faster unbalanced battles.
Post #: 6
5/12/2013 17:40:46   
Mondez
Member

I wouldn't say the team is lazy @Enlightened. It's hard to balance a game when many players are always requesting for nerfs.

My main issue with ED is the quick battle ratio because take for example the best merc build at the moment, Support Defense Merc can end a match in 3 turns to a player that didn't have a strategy to counter the build.

Right now one thread was created because the player thought they were OP, but in reality it was a wonderfully built class though it would be one the majority of the merc builds due to build copying then players that don't play support merc would complain to how that certain build is OP because the merc can end the match in a span of 3 turns.

I have to agree that Omega is the worst phase compared to the other phases with constructive reason.

At the moment one of the devs did say that ED is growing and while that is good, it's some of the changes and choices that were made during Omegas development that might have deterred some players to leave and I somewhat have disagreed on the choices that were made when they made the Omega Phase.

< Message edited by Mondez -- 5/12/2013 17:43:23 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 7
5/12/2013 17:50:30   
Noobatron x3000
Member

^ Meh there all quick kill builds now in 2v2 ( where i play mostly)

All you really see are 3 classes I'm playing at the low 20s as playing my 35 is suicidal with balance as it is . But as i said all you really see are a few builds all fast.

- Bounty hunters - most popular build is extreme dex multi stun grenade (you get the odd one or two smoke builds but not many)
- mercs- support multi ofcourse
- mages - all casters either extreme dex or tech
- and then you just get the clueless bunch with no builds whatsoever stats ridicolously bad the epic duelers who spend most of there time dead.

But regarding the post i completely agree with this in my opinion there is no saving ED now its got past that point. Just hope when it dies and shuts down completely people try to remember the good times as few as there were.
Post #: 8
5/12/2013 20:42:10   
goldslayer1
Member

quote:

When expectations are high, disappointment will be high. That's the issue with Omega.

expectations were high for omega because of developer boast, so when their release didn't live up to what they said it would be, players were disappointed.


quote:

Epicduel devs WANT epicduel to be a pay to win game. Im assuming the reason they impleted cores instead of a class was because cores can be developed very easily than classes and can be made quicker.

maybe they wouldn't need classes at all. i have made suggestions on having completely custom skill trees before, and having a custom skill tree could have a varium price. (think of changing ur skill tree, as changing ur class)

this would be the same as cores except with skill trees where its completely custom.
the only difference is, cores dont have limitations or requirements like skills do.

the point is if they had thought it through, they could have made a much more creative atmosphere in ED, while at the same time generating profit. but they have no game designer in their staff crew, so things like these are expected.

< Message edited by goldslayer1 -- 5/12/2013 20:43:30 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 9
5/13/2013 0:04:07   
  Exploding Penguin
Moderator


@Drianx: The devs most probably knew expectations were high, so they had a responsibility to live up to that. Delta was very successful in doing such a thing, so many players predicted the same good things that happened in delta (mainly 3 new classes) would happen in Omega, but that never really happened. Being disappointed is not at all the fault of the players, but it was a responsibility that the developers were held up to, and I guess they experimented too much by changing the system too drastically rather than bit by bit, resulting in something pretty disastrous.

@Cyber Dream: Enhancements weren't as bad as many people make them out to be. While they were extremely unfair to the f2p playerbase, they at least provided a massive amount of options for build creativity. Cores are simply disastrous because they're a pain to balance and don't necessarily bring much more "fun factor" to the game. I don't know about you, but I gained a LOT more pleasure and enjoyment from getting an aux crit that hit 90+ rather than forcing an opponent to strike while dealing a mere 3 damage. They drastically nerfed some of the most satisfying skills, such as deadly aim, zerker, and massacre. This in itself is already something that could make a large majority of players leave the game.
Epic  Post #: 10
5/13/2013 2:48:13   
The Incredible Hulk
Banned

 

quote:

I wouldn't say the team is lazy @Enlightened. It's hard to balance a game when many players are always requesting for nerfs.


Not true.
Rabble froth does nerfs every week, I'm sure that we are not requesting them.

Less nerfs, more features would be the ideal option
Epic  Post #: 11
5/13/2013 8:23:18   
master x guardian
Member

quote:

destroying every build we can make

For starters, it is incredibly difficult to buff everything with respect to one thing that is considered overpowered. It's far easier and efficient to nerf that one thing in particular. There simply would be far too many things to consider if the developers were to pursue buffing everything.

Secondarily, while the feedback of the players is very important, believe or not, balance changes do not happen at their every whim. A great deal of thought and consideration is placed into options for balance. If the developers were to implement balance changes based on the complaints of every player, there'd literally have to balance adjustments every day. There is a good deal of time placed into discussing the options available and whether or not they are appropriate. I just wanted to dispel comments about the developers along the lines of "nerfing everything because a few people complain..."
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 12
5/13/2013 9:07:22   
Melbourne
Member

I believe that it is slowly falling apart is because of the fact that it is a PvP game with different classes. With different moves and skills one class will always be stronger than the rest. It's near impossible to balance a game like this but hopefully soon they can get relatively close.
AQW Epic  Post #: 13
5/13/2013 19:05:54   
Giras Wolfe
Member

quote:

We can no longer hit those joyously high 90s when we use our aux on support-abuse builds, we can no longer make 140 energy caster builds, we can no longer have fun with those 200 HP builds, we can't make strength-abuse builds with fun guns like dage's boomsticks, and many more builds. The lack of enhancements reduces the capacity for build creativity, and this leads to many players at a loss in this new and complicated system, resulting in lots of unfavored build copying. But, the main idea is that because of the nerfs, there is less excitement and just in general fun in the game


Thank you for articulating what exactly it was that made me stop playing. I felt "forced" into using a generic 5 focus build because all the "fun" builds have been nerfed to death.
AQ AQW Epic  Post #: 14
5/13/2013 19:52:57   
goldslayer1
Member

quote:

For starters, it is incredibly difficult to buff everything with respect to one thing that is considered overpowered. It's far easier and efficient to nerf that one thing in particular.

the thing about nerfing it is, when they nerf a class, it only makes another stronger. they dont nerf it till they are equal.

and the easier route isn't always the best ones.
think of it like build copying. u dont learn anything from copying someone else's build.
u would however learn from being able to make ur own builds.

sure making ur own build that worked was harder in the beginning, but it ultimately made u better at that. now if u were only copying a build, ur gonna keep relying on other people to make builds so u can copy it.

@giras
yeah the fun factor is also a big reason why many quit or are quitting.
back then (beta/gamma, u can argue delta) there wasn't balance, but players had fun in those times.
AQW Epic  Post #: 15
5/13/2013 20:31:28   
Mother1
Member

@ wolfe

And those of us who actually liked focus builds got a nerf because of all those nerfs. Omega has been nothing more then one big nerf. When we left from delta to omega what did they do first? Nerfed health and energy to give 1 point instead of 2 and nerf all weapons so they would be the same. However this cause offense to be OP which eventually got nerfed but in the process this and the new formula for going first OP support. One week later Support got nerfed and diminishing returns came on strength and support.

Now because of that all these nerfs people were in their words forced to use focus builds and then about a month later focus got another nerf. The only buffs that were made were to Assimilation and bloodlust, only for these moves to get nerfed not much later.

So overall Omega have been nothing but one huge nerf, and when someone finds something creative lord help that person if said build gets copied because any group that can't beat it will come to these forums and request it to get nerfed.
Epic  Post #: 16
5/13/2013 21:47:51   
Stabilis
Member

EpicDuel's PVP is being abused whether it be for a better kills to death ratio or a better kills to time ratio. Players would not enjoy when this occurs as there is a pack effect against their will. The pack effect/ peer pressure is to join or be outcast. For the sake of being a game players just wish to enjoy their time, not put up with a PVP trend they may not even support (Focus everywhere but being bored of Focus). For whatever reason there is always an abused stat, and what follows that is often an abused skill (that was improved by a stat) if not a weapon such as the Robot. It is an old fact that stats are abused because they can stack with skills regardless of a separate points system.
AQ Epic  Post #: 17
5/15/2013 0:19:44   
Hun Kingq
Member

The main thing is the staff does what the nerf trolls wants instead of doing common sense changes.

With the multis even with 85% damage reduction on multiple players the merc classes has a huge advantage for one Artillery strike improves with support so does Aux giving them two powerful items that goes critical more often than Plasma Cannon than I seen sometimes the get rage in their 2nd or 3rd turn and players asked many times to do something to slow the rage meter but Rabble does nothing.

I pointed out that it takes more tech for Plasma Cannon to equal the same damage potential as Bunker Buster but Rabble does nothing, wjhen we have way more high tech builds than ever before.

No one/hardly anyone uses Plasma Rain or Multi shot because they are too weak and the classes that have them have nothing that won't cost energy to inflict as much damage as support build Aux.

The Nerf Trolls demanded that fireball be weakened because they thought that what was making them loose but it was actually bludgeon so again instead of listening to players that played the class since the beginning of Delta they weakened the fireball skill making it once again a weak tier 1 skill of all tier 1 skills and those players still lost finally realizing it was the Bludgeon that was causing the most damage.

The nerf trolls next target was Deadly aim so the Nerf trolls won once again which all they had to do is make it where Level 8-10 equals different points in calculating with percentage like Level 8 =10, Level 9 =11, Level 10 =12 since strength was adjusted.

Instead of making the ratio of dex/tech narrower to strength/support rabble increased it basically showing no difference in damage reduction unless you pour all points into that stat.

Since the era of Shadow Arts which should have never been introduce because bounties had smoke to reduce dex and plus they blocked more often than any other class before that even without a player being smoked there basically have been no blocking of blockable skills so what did Rabble do make it where even if you block they still get damage instead of taking a look why does one class or classes block more than any other. If you block an attack with a shield or something then you block the attack and no injuries occurs.

They keep telling the players the new classes will get new skills especially the multis and ultimate skills and so far nothing.

The nerf Trolls demanded the Azrael weapons be nerfed and they did not even have the weapons so the ones that spent $50 on their accounts got punished for supporting the game instead of staff tell them to bad, why should we punish the ones that financially support the game when you don't.

They forced players of the blood mage into two types of builds 5 focus bot build or a high level bludgeon build because the other skills re too weak.

If they don't do some positive changes soon instead of more nerfs there will be a lot less players especially paying players.
Epic  Post #: 18
5/15/2013 0:30:20   
Scyze
Member

quote:

...there will be a lot less players especially paying players.
Already happening mate. There's a large number of less active players. I only do around 50-150 wins if I even bother anymore. Usually 500 during the week-ends. I once managed to get 800 which I'm happy about. :)
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 19
5/15/2013 2:15:06   
comicalbike
Member

it was bound to start failing as soon as they took the fun out of the game my sister fay bee started me on this game and it was a great game then as we went from beta till we got to omega it was great fun then omega killed the game took all the fun out of it, if we could rewind it i would like to go back to beta that i enjoyed the most
Epic  Post #: 20
5/15/2013 4:25:09   
aurther13th
Member

@Hun Kingg i have a lvl 31 blood mage and i have quit even playing it, or the account for that matter. and you stated why, there are 2 classes that you can actually win with, and at that 1 got nerfed, lvl 5 focus. so even it is worse, which leads you to str abuse an high hp. and most of the time that doesnt even do anything. with blocks messed up and nothing getting fixed its useless. Oh an str abuse got nerfed with the D.A. nerf. I just hate the class now.
Epic  Post #: 21
5/15/2013 9:35:03   
goldslayer1
Member

quote:

The Nerf Trolls demanded that fireball be weakened because they thought that what was making them loose but it was actually bludgeon so again instead of listening to players that played the class since the beginning of Delta they weakened the fireball skill making it once again a weak tier 1 skill of all tier 1 skills and those players still lost finally realizing it was the Bludgeon that was causing the most damage.

this one is actually true, the old fireball bludgeon (or zerker build) it was bludgeon that was the stronger one.

if you look at the damage, a level 1 Bludgeon did more damage than a max fireball using the same amount of strength.
the strength progression has changed now and bludgeon was nerfed so it probably doesn't hold true anymore.
AQW Epic  Post #: 22
5/15/2013 9:40:09   
Ranloth
Banned


It's funny how we're called troll nerfers yet people have requested DA nerf since Beta. And everyone knew BM's Strength abuse was bad therefore Fireball nerf was justified and a right one. Also, it's funny how entire BM population can use the class well but one cannot and claims its UP.
AQ Epic  Post #: 23
5/15/2013 16:07:30   
Yo son
Member

@Penguin

quote:

Since Omega, many skills have been nerfed, and only a few buffed. Those that were buffed were probably buffed with the intention of making fights longer (such as assimilation removing EP). Percentage-based skills were nerfed, particularly massacre. Bunker was nerfed. Malfunction was nerfed. Damage output was nerfed for aux, gun, primary, and robots. Poison attacks were buffed but were also nerfed more because you can field medic out of them. Enhancements were taken away as well, which is somewhat like a nerf in itself. So, what do these nerfs do? They make the game less exciting. We can no longer hit those joyously high 90s when we use our aux on support-abuse builds, we can no longer make 140 energy caster builds, we can no longer have fun with those 200 HP builds, we can't make strength-abuse builds with fun guns like dage's boomsticks, and many more builds. The lack of enhancements reduces the capacity for build creativity, and this leads to many players at a loss in this new and complicated system, resulting in lots of unfavored build copying. But, the main idea is that because of the nerfs, there is less excitement and just in general fun in the game. Therefore, because some of this was lost, many players (particularly var players who previously had enhancements) left and stopped playing ED.



If your trying to make a point, using builds that hit 90, and 200 hp builds might not be the best examples to use, because if I can remember correctly those where the definition of severely Op'ed builds, and apart from alpha where things like ultimate were nerfed; these builds were probably the starting era of nerfs. Seriously, am guessing this build were during beta and the ending of beta, and the generic hp at that time was around 110-120 hp, 90 crit + (most likely followed by artillery, since these builds was most deadly as a merc) was a two hit KO, much like the strength builds earlier Omega. if the cost of having fun came at the cost of pissing of any one you fought, then that's not good for the game.

quote:

Enhancements weren't as bad as many people make them out to be. While they were extremely unfair to the f2p playerbase, they at least provided a massive amount of options for build creativity. Cores are simply disastrous because they're a pain to balance and don't necessarily bring much more "fun factor" to the game. I don't know about you, but I gained a LOT more pleasure and enjoyment from getting an aux crit that hit 90+ rather than forcing an opponent to strike while dealing a mere 3 damage. They drastically nerfed some of the most satisfying skills, such as deadly aim, zerker, and massacre. This in itself is already something that could make a large majority of players leave the game.


am not sure it the time span since enhancement has been removed has been too long for you, but enhancement was the worst thing to happen to this game; particular because of 3 reasons; 1, It forced you to spend money (50 dollars) every time new better weapons was released, which was about every two weeks just so you can compete against others, no offense but I would much rather be forced to use a build I didn't want to, or like, than have to spend 50 dollars every week on a game completely wasn't any where near the kind of financial expectations the were requiring, if I add up how much money I spent on enhancement and "newly oped weapons" I can used it to by a gaming console and enough games to last me for the entire year without getting bored. 2, the majority of players in this games are selfish, either by their own will, or forced to; I completely agree with you, with these stats creative builds were possible; but how many creative build did you see during enhancement? wasn't the era of enhancement ruled by focus builds? why, because instead of players investing those points that comes from enhancement into something creative, almost everyone invested it into making a build as oped as possible, thanks to enhancement, there wasn't any weakness to builds like focus, or strength abusing massacre builds, because prior to the enhancement era, you had to give up something to use those kind of builds, but with enhancement players just filled out those weakness, but did not use it for creativity, show me any creative build that arose as a result of enhancement. 3, Enhancement quite frankly gave a lot of F2p players a lot of ultra ego, and that wasn't right; one of my favorite things about omega is that when I beat a non varium player the don't have an excuse anymore.

@Slayer
there is really no difference from skill cores and custom skill tree, no difference what so ever, although you can ask yourself where will you be getting the skill points to invest in these custom skills? and why give the devs more things to neft.

@Hun Kung

No offense, but most of your post sounds self minded and just like you pointed out, troll suggestions is ruining the game or ruined the game, but also selfish suggestions does the same thing.




The majority can agree that, what most duelist want the most is longer battles, by means of strategy not hitting 3 damage, and one thing I think the devs messed up on the most for omega is the HP/ EP system. I understand Rabble reasoning that investing in HP was giving too much of an advantage as compered to investing in other stats, but even in real life, but because an idea sounds logical/ is logical, it might not necessary be the best one to follow, how much so should that be for a game? A person with 700 hp and 0 defense is most likely to lose to a person with 90 hp; so at some point hp and stats equates to each other; the low HP will always be a problem to creativity that every one (mostly experienced/ old time players as/wants). In the term of nerfting robot, their is completely nothing wrong with that, you cant have a build that is structurally and functionally stable and not expect everyone else to use it, as long focus was like that, people were most likely to use it, even if something creavity comes out; robots were never meant to replace every build in this game, which it did.

< Message edited by Yo son -- 5/15/2013 16:08:33 >
Post #: 24
5/15/2013 16:19:15   
goldslayer1
Member

quote:

there is really no difference from skill cores and custom skill tree, no difference what so ever, although you can ask yourself where will you be getting the skill points to invest in these custom skills? and why give the devs more things to neft.

what?
the skill points themselves is already a requirement, means there is a difference.
AQW Epic  Post #: 25
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