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The Ironic Truth?

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10/2/2012 0:19:30   
ND Mallet
Legendary AK!!!


 To be completely honest I can say that non varium players are the true lifeblood of this game. Why do we buy varium? To get an advantage over them. If everyone had varium then there would be no varium advantage. This could mean a large amount would quit because they wasted money on a no longer applicable advantage and would have to pay to stay on top. Think about how nature works for a minute. Do we have more rabbits than wolves or more wolves than rabbits? We have a large amount of non varium players still so even if a varium player slips behind in the best gear he'll still be ahead of the average non varium player. Since there is also a larger amount of them you can assume they have greater influence on others. If a quarter of F2Ps go out and advertize the game and say it's fun to play as a free player then we'll be seeing a whole lot more players incoming than if varium players went out and tried getting people. Why? Because non varium players are far more numerous and will persuade more effectively if they say that you can do fine just as a free player while a varium player doesn't have that advantage unless s/he has been non varium for a long period of time to have the knowledge of it. Even if the system where non variums can get credit only versions of varium gear goes full scale we'd still be getting the advantage over them because in an under hour we can get the varium and credits for several pieces of gear while a non varium will need to farm for several days to get a full set.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 1
10/2/2012 2:47:36   
Silver Sky Magician
Member


 Actually, from observation it appears that the general demographic of the higher-level players (by which I mean players at level 33 and above) are largely varium players. It currently seems that near the level cap, it is not an advantage to have varium, but it is a disadvantage not to have it.
Post #: 2
10/2/2012 3:47:00   
Drianx
Member

I agree with you ND, but no matter how one puts it, the 'pay-to-win' concept is a very risky one, apart from being annoying.

My opinion is that real-money currency should go, and a membership should take its place.
Because it's more difficult to trick people with a membership which is clearly explained.
But with varium you can release an overpowered armor today, advertise it, get it sold by the hundreds, and then release an even stronger one within a week, and laugh in the face of the initial buyers.
No one guarantees protection for your investment right now.
In a membership's case, benefits are time-related, which provides a better control and transparency for your investment.
AQW Epic  Post #: 3
10/2/2012 4:49:31   
Unknown Menace
Member

quote:

But with varium you can release an overpowered armor today, advertise it, get it sold by the hundreds, and then release an even stronger one within a week


Partially this is already taking place with the constant new armor releases. But hey what is the use of creating new stuff if you can't release them, and they are working at a constant rate so you can expect new gear all the time. To make the new gear attractive they have to make it a bit stronger or as equally strong. Wonder where this will end in 5 years. We'll have somekinda super armors and weapons compared to now.
Epic  Post #: 4
10/2/2012 5:44:35   
rayniedays56
Member

@ above


In five years I say the level cap will be....HOPEFULLY somewhere in the 50's. More than likely it will be forty...but...HOPES! :D


And of course in five years it means better weapons...

WHy?


HIGHER LEVELS AND MORE STATS


And skill points...

Holy...


In 5 levels, I can max HYBRID, max Bunker, max adrenaline, max atom and 8 Field Medic! O_O


So...this is...4 stats per level up, so 4*39 is 156 stats...O_O I see 109 HP, 100+ EP and tech abuse well over 200+ ERMEHGURD
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 5
10/2/2012 6:35:19   
Drianx
Member

quote:

But hey what is the use of creating new stuff if you can't release them

Well I didn't say they shouldn't release, but they must protect peoples' investment by not making their newly purchased items go obsolete too soon.
AQW Epic  Post #: 6
10/2/2012 7:01:50   
Unknown Menace
Member

@raynie

Well i doubt it will be 50 by than. That means 15+ levels in 5 year = 3 levels every year.
This is not dragonfable you know ;p, where they throw 10 levels on top with every cap raise.

Maybe it will be 37 or 38.
And i'm speaking purely of constant improving gear stats and specials apart from level cap raise and what comes with it.

Kinda getting off topic here?

quote:

If a quarter of F2Ps go out and advertize the game and say it's fun to play as a free player then we'll be seeing a whole lot more players incoming than if varium players went out and tried getting people.


Yes, if a non paying customer would promote the game it will have much more effect. Also because they hold a bigger number of the community. How ever i don't see them doing it because whats in it for them? It's all about giving and receiving. If one of the two factors lacks than it will hardly work. You know animation is a great source to pull people towards games and make them aware of it's existance (just think of all the parodies). I have seen many artist become succesfull and earn some really good diggits on them. How ever in order to make it succeed you need to entertain the crowd and catch their interest. Mostly done by goofy/funny/adult themed flash movies. Maybe the staff can work that part out? They have the tools and the talent.
Epic  Post #: 7
10/2/2012 9:01:54   
Blaze The Aion Ender
Member

I buy varium not for the advantage, but to not have the dis advantage
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 8
10/2/2012 9:05:46   
TRizZzCENTRINO
Member

i buy varium to get the cool looking weapons and to try their cool special skills. btw i love how my opponent flies off screen when i crit with infernal interdictor.
MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 9
10/2/2012 14:30:07   
ND Mallet
Legendary AK!!!
quote:

Actually, from observation it appears that the general demographic of the higher-level players (by which I mean players at level 33 and above) are largely varium players

Why is this? Because the wolves are TOO good of hunters and are preventing the rabbits from populating enough. The staff are making it easier for the rabbits to handle the wolves but those options are extremely limited as it is now.
quote:

My opinion is that real-money currency should go, and a membership should take its place.
Because it's more difficult to trick people with a membership which is clearly explained.

I hate the concept of memberships and membership items. It irks me in AQW when I have something nice but can't use it because it's mem-only and my mem expired. Imagine how I and others would feel if instead of just losing artwork we'd lose access to stats and vital damage.
quote:

But with varium you can release an overpowered armor today, advertise it, get it sold by the hundreds, and then release an even stronger one within a week, and laugh in the face of the initial buyers.

The problem here is that there is no BEST item in-game forever. Say an armor gets released this week that's perfect that Casters but terrible for support builds. Then let's say that caster gets nerfed next week while they finally buff up support again. Now the best armor is no longer useful anymore since it never helped support builds. There is also the problem that seasonal rares=/=promotional rares=/=limited rares=/=permanent gear. This means that if they release permanent content this week and then next week give us a limited rare then it generally would have more stats to it or damage. Then you also have to consider how the level cap raises over time as well. Can you show me an example of two items at the same level and rarity status being different in number of stats and damage/def?
quote:

No one guarantees protection for your investment right now.
In a membership's case, benefits are time-related, which provides a better control and transparency for your investment.

This is a double edged sword. The membership gives you a limited time but is cheaper but also means you HAVE to keep that membership or the perks of it are lost(access to best gear) while varium can be bought and used whenever and runs no risk of expiring. You have the choice of a long period of time where you may not be able to play even and still having something when you get back compared to a membership where you HAVE to play for so much to get the most of your money.
quote:

To make the new gear attractive they have to make it a bit stronger or as equally strong.

Once again I bring up how the usefulness of gear changes from person to person and from build to build. They often keep stats as close to the same total but there is a big difference for an item to give 8 strength dex and tech when you need 8 dex tech and support. Just because an item suits your build better does not mean that it IS the better piece of gear.
quote:

Well I didn't say they shouldn't release, but they must protect peoples' investment by not making their newly purchased items go obsolete too soon.

I've covered this before just right above this part about how obsolete gear all depends on build.
quote:

How ever i don't see them doing it because whats in it for them?

They don't do it because they honestly can't say they're not getting creamed left and right by varium players non-stop.
quote:

I buy varium not for the advantage, but to not have the dis advantage

The disadvantage is only so great because we urged the staff to give so much for paying players rather than allowing the non variums to compete. We also complain that non variums ruin our chances in 2vs2 but don't care if we two shot them in 1vs1. The disadvantage would remain unchecked if we didn't have those determined non varium players speaking out for themselves and for those varium players who realize they can't have easy 1vs1 wins without getting those easy 2vs2 losses or just want more challenge from non variums.
quote:

i buy varium to get the cool looking weapons and to try their cool special skills. btw i love how my opponent flies off screen when i crit with infernal interdictor.

Many reasons to buy varium but the main reason at the end of the day when everything is said and done is to get an advantage over non variums. The fact that so many people say they buy it so they don't get a disadvantage means something needs looked at in terms of power balance or advertising.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 10
10/2/2012 15:14:15   
  RabbleFroth
Member

*listening*
Post #: 11
10/2/2012 15:17:08   
Drianx
Member

quote:

Can you show me an example of two items at the same level and rarity status being different in number of stats and damage/def?

Eggzooka promo vs Lagomorph promo. Eggzookas are even 1 level lower, but are still higher in stats.

< Message edited by Drianx -- 10/2/2012 15:21:42 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 12
10/2/2012 15:22:40   
One Winged Angel1357
Member


 I agree with you ND but I have two things to chime in which to me are rather Ironic.

First being if you want to protect your investment you are better off being a F2P. That new armor and weapons that just came out in the last saga(current saga whatever) will last us a very long time and personally I have been using the same Aux since Beta, how is that for a protected investment?

Second the great equaling factor for F2P's falls on enhancements. Below is what I mean

quote:

Your gear gives 29.25 levels in stat modifiers

The latest Varium gear gives 30.75 levels with NO enhancements but because we are not fools here we will give atleast half of their total enhancements to them for one data point and full enhancements for the other.
35 levels with half enhancements
40 levels with full enhancements


So you are losing so much because you are between 5.75 levels and 10.75 levels behind your varium using enemy. Which as we all know is just outside to well outside the realms of the the match making system. In simple terms your out gunned


and if your wondering what I picked for Varium gear here it is
http://epicduelwiki.com/w/Dage%27s_Haunted_Boomstick
http://epicduelwiki.com/w/Elite_Charbinger_Axe
http://epicduelwiki.com/w/Super_Mecha_Disintegrator
http://epicduelwiki.com/w/Platinum%27s_Pride_(Level_35)


The guy I am talking about is a cap F2P using pretty much the F2P version of all of the Varium gear listed, save for the gun there he has the mecha sidearm. He is 1.5 levels below a Varium player as it stands with just gear which is a good edge to have in a fight for a Varium user. But when you get into enhancements that is where you can see the visibly spikes up on us. Now yes we can lose or NPC farm to get the credits to pay for enhancements but first they are expensive as all get up and second what F2P will volunteer to be a punching bag then go out and promote the game as a great F2P experience it just isn't happening.
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 13
10/2/2012 15:29:22   
Drianx
Member

@ND: Oh and I wanted to add one more comment for you:

quote:

This is a double edged sword. The membership gives you a limited time but is cheaper but also means you HAVE to keep that membership or the perks of it are lost(access to best gear) while varium can be bought and used whenever and runs no risk of expiring. You have the choice of a long period of time where you may not be able to play even and still having something when you get back compared to a membership where you HAVE to play for so much to get the most of your money.


This is applicable only if you look at membership as a different form of the same 'pay to win' general concept. But that is what hurts most about varium, isn't it?

< Message edited by Drianx -- 10/2/2012 15:30:28 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 14
10/2/2012 16:07:14   
$Avarice$
Banned

 

 ND Mallet:

quote:

To be completely honest I can say that non varium players are the true lifeblood of this game. Why do we buy varium? To get an advantage over them.


Flawed logic. F2P's are the lifeblood of ED? Um, no. Players don't buy Varium gear to beat f2ps. They buy Varium to stay as competitive as possible (win) vs. other Varium players.

Because of the giant price tag on enhancing gear for credits, there will always be a large gap. Lower the credit price of enhancements by like half, and the problem will be more or less solved.

And regarding membership vs. pay for each item:

quote:

Imagine how I and others would feel if instead of just losing artwork we'd lose access to stats and vital damage.


To be fair, the price of maintaining a yearly membership would probably be far cheaper than what it takes to keep a 35 varium account competitive throughout that same year.

Post #: 15
10/2/2012 16:32:26   
rayniedays56
Member

NO Rabble. You are reading :3


On topic, I agree PARTLY with you Mallet. Non Vars DO keep this game running, because without non vars, no one would change to var.


HOWEVER, please remember that Vars support the game by buying varium, while non vars keep it supported through the game staying competitive.


To everyone flaming this post, remember that we were ALL non vars at one time. Without all the constant support of the Devs to the F2P, then why in the world would we buy varium?
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 16
10/2/2012 16:35:07   
$Avarice$
Banned

 
quote:

Without all the constant support of the Devs to the F2P, then why in the world would we buy varium?


Try enhancing all your gear with credits only.

Then you'll see why people would still buy varium.
Post #: 17
10/2/2012 16:35:58   
The Astral Fury
Member

But it's so easy to run out of varuim what did we get this week... A new varuim bike,armour and gun that was like 3500 varuim down the drain not to mention the extra 3600 to enchane them. I'm fine with paying for it, but the prices of items and enchaments in game are to much, varuim items keep being released with the new promo rare ultra super item you just HAVE to have. And you credit players never had the chance varuim weponds give them a slight advantage, but enchaments i s where the problem lies. enchaments for varuim are expensive, but credits players have to spend 140k how is that fair? Plus 560k CREDITS FOR A WHOLE SET. I would like if enchaments were removed for a week too see what would happend.

enchaments are the main thing BM wasn't OP it was th enaments giving them their str. This would stop the OP classes and stat abusing and would make things more fair, you guys will disigree though.
DF AQW  Post #: 18
10/2/2012 16:38:49   
Ranloth
Banned
quote:

Flawed logic. F2P's are the lifeblood of ED? Um, no. Players don't buy Varium gear to beat f2ps. They buy Varium to stay as competitive as possible (win) vs. other Varium players.

Well done. And it's not flawed.
1. Varium gave players edge over F2P thus F2P are needed.
2. Varium makes them equal to another Varium player.
3. Varium wouldn't be bought at all if it wasn't for F2P.

You buy to get edge over F2P and then to be equal with Varium players + better than F2P. Simple as.

< Message edited by Trans -- 10/2/2012 16:39:14 >
AQ Epic  Post #: 19
10/2/2012 16:57:19   
rayniedays56
Member

Um...I find some F2p's to be extremely versatile! :D
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 20
10/2/2012 16:57:19   
ND Mallet
Legendary AK!!!


 @avarice
quote:

The fact that so many people say they buy it so they don't get a disadvantage means something needs looked at in terms of power balance or advertising.

Varium should not be necessary to be competitive and since the fact that so many people say it is then I think that means it's too powerful or that the free gear isn't strong enough.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 21
10/2/2012 16:58:53   
The Astral Fury
Member

I still think enchamnets should be removed they cause alot of problems in the game like OP classes and stat abuse, it would be awesome if they removed them for just a week to see how it would affect gameplay. And varuim prices for items and enhanments in game need to go down because it's ridiculos to spend this much on a game it really is I don't like the curency option at all, but if we must keep it make it a 20k pack atleast, you guys may have the money to spend 1000's of dollars on a game, but not everyone does I know people need to make money, but it dosen't seem right and not only are vauim items expensive to buy and enchance in game, but they release so many new varuim items so you keep spending. I mean c'mon and what was new to free players this week... nothing they got nothing like they do most releases, and what do we get more chances to waste and varuim and spend it again. I hate to sound like this, but they is some truth and maybe you guys are fine and have the money to keep buying and buying, but we don't all and we shouldn't have to keep paying.

Rememeber it's just a game it's fine spending on it, but not all the time.

I just bought the 10k pack I spent 1500 varuim on a new bike, 995, on the new gun, and 1600 on a new armour, also an extra 3600 to enchance the gun and the armour thats roughly 7100 varuim from the 10k pack wasted, but wait I want a primary, aux and bot too thats another 4000 varuim plus another 1700 to enchance them so that means 6700 varuim that means I'll need to buy another varuim pack to get it.

< Message edited by dragonman111 -- 10/2/2012 17:11:13 >
DF AQW  Post #: 22
10/2/2012 17:21:49   
Ranloth
Banned
quote:

I'm sorry, but that's a resounding no!

When I talk to players about why they buy varium, the last reason they give is, "Well, now I'll finally be able to beat those pesky f2pers!"

What planet are you playing on, anyway?

Cuz it's certainly not Delta V.


F2P = F2P, Varium > F2P, Varium = Varium (roughly)
Would've thought V = V because of simple fact that there's no advantage.. Likewise for F2P = F2P.. I did say Varium > F2P clearly but then to stay competitive against other Varium players, you need Varium or else you'll have lower edge just like F2P have when facing Varium players. And I don't need reasons as of to why they need Varium. If there'd be no advantage, cheap enhancements with Credits, then Varium would have no reason to exist but why do players buy it now? You can get same things with Credits (enhancements and such) but you buy Varium to get it quicker only. There's no advantage then so why do you buy Varium if it's not for power?

Ehhh, won't get people for thinking that Varium isn't bought for advantage over F2P and then certain people ranting how gap is closing + they buy Varium.. >.>

Also that's my opinion. So you cannot say "resounding no" because I have right to it.. and Rabble is watching.

PS. I'm playing from Earth.
AQ Epic  Post #: 23
10/2/2012 22:44:06   
ND Mallet
Legendary AK!!!
quote:

Eggzooka promo vs Lagomorph promo. Eggzookas are even 1 level lower, but are still higher in stats.

I believe I said same rarity status as well. You can't compare a promotional item to any other non promo item because you WILL find that the promo generally wins at the same level and honestly the difference between them is only 1 level as it stands. The Eggzooka gives 4 stats but the Lagomorph has 1 more damage to it.
quote:

*listening*

Excellent, my captive audience has finally stopped struggling and is now listening instead. >:3 Add ALL the moose gear!!11! But seriously guys, I only point this post out because I believe this proves that being civilized posters and calmly stating your opinions without bashing others will get you better attention from the people that matter the most, the devs.

It's obvious that there's a lot to do still but to truly have this game cheaper the varium players must learn to accept and give up some of their power now or have to face the consequences later when the game is more varium players than non varium. The road is starting to fork and we can either keep going straight down the path we're going and keep the same non variums=free kills and varium=expensive or we can turn down the other and have varium=less necessary and non variums=not as easy kills. Just remember if you want to do good in 2vs2 that you can't neglect non varium players like in the past.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 24
10/3/2012 2:56:14   
Drianx
Member

^ OOps my bad, I could have sworn Lagomorph auxiliaries were Easter promos just like Eggzookas.

Anyway, speaking about items going obsolete, it is rather meaningless comparing their damage for example, but to estimate the general usefulness. Because an item could go obsolete very early because of some balance adjustments.

For example, one could buy an aux with emphasis on strength for his strength build that currently dominates, and the next week a balance shift towards support occurs. Well, his newly acquired aux is no good anymore, because his build doesn't work anymore. And in this case - a zooka for str build - its damage is meaningless, since it is not fired at all during the fight. This can only be avoided if all items would have flat stat boosts, like 5str-5dex-5tech-5supp or something.

If the current system - varium&pay-to-win - is to stay in place as it is now, then they must provide a better control over varium items usefulness over time and take into consideration protecting people's investments by not allowing balance shifts or subsequent releases to throw items obsolete too early.

Even the varium advertisement on the homepage is rather confusing:
quote:

Use Varium to access powerful weapons how powerful and for how long will they stay powerful?, advanced armors how advanced, and for how long will they be considered 'advanced'?, unique styles, create factions, customize your home, and more!

And the most important fact: you do not use varium to access weapons - that's what a membership would do. You consume it by buying them directly.
AQW Epic  Post #: 25
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