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12/1/2012 11:14:05   
  Exploding Penguin
Moderator


 This topic has probably been brought up quite a few times already, but I'm going to start another discussion on it again. I feel people log onto ED or play ED just for the wins for the faction/good record, where people care way too much about their win record to experiment with other builds. Overused builds come up so often in 1v1, that it normally takes a large portion of the fun out of the fight because everyone just uses the exactly same strategy again, which is lame. It's probably no fun for the person who uses the overused build, and I can guarantee it's also no fun for the person who's fighting against the overused build as well. A great example is strength BH. Seriously, it's fast and it gets wins, but it's the most boring thing in the world. Smoke, strike, strike, massacre, rage. Really? Same with str BM, but they nerfed it (not because it was boring, because fireball was way too strong). Focus BM may seem like another overused build, and it is, but at least it has some mix-ups to it because of the flexibility of the skill tree. With Omega coming and the weapon customization features, I'm hoping to see a lot more unique builds and ideas, but you never know...

Also, I'm not saying to nerf strength BHs, I'm just wanting to make a point that I think there should be something to discourage its overuse. Almost 1/3 of all my fights are against str BHs in 1v1, and that's one of the main reasons I don't really play it anymore. Please discuss your opinions on this matter.
Epic  Post #: 1
12/1/2012 11:36:31   
kittycat
Member

I agree with you. Once Omega begins, many overused builds are also being "buffed" in a way such as a Caster Tech. Now that the ability to allocate stats on whatever you want, it is very easy to create and very effective. TLM tanks can be even more tankier, and its going to be a new story.

< Message edited by kittycat -- 12/1/2012 11:37:13 >
AQ MQ  Post #: 2
12/1/2012 12:26:40   
Mother1
Member

This will only end up getting a lot of the builds nerfed. Most people aren't going to be creative about it, they are just going to make thier already OP builds even more OP. I highly doubt anyone will make new builds because anyone who does so will be most likely get their butt kicked due to others using the OP builds.

It is human nature people want to win, and they would sooner use a boring OP build and get the wins then be creative and make a new build only to get the floor mopped with them.
Epic  Post #: 3
12/1/2012 12:32:53   
Sympleton
Member

But the only reason that a build is ever "OP" is because the newest weapons fit that specific play style so well. Truly, any build style can beat any build style if done correctly (A support bounty hunter CAN beat a strength bounty hunter). With the ability to have the same amount of stats as someone, but a different build, I think a new generation of diversity will be upon us.
Epic  Post #: 4
12/1/2012 12:33:37   
Teufel Hunden
Member

i made a unique build for jugg. then players started copying my build and it is starting to lose its uniqueness but im stickin to it
AQW Epic  Post #: 5
12/1/2012 12:46:56   
Swedish Rambo
Member
 

 Making a topic about this situation wont help in any way.

Every build has its weaknesses.
Post #: 6
12/1/2012 12:50:39   
Vegafire
Member

But caster mages and tanky mercs are as intended, with omega we will find new ways to combat this? and also tanky mercs are relatively easy due to increased rage rates for the other apponements

_____________________________


The Frost Guardians
AQW Epic  Post #: 7
12/1/2012 19:40:35   
  Exploding Penguin
Moderator


 There are many misinterpretations. This isn't about OP builds at all, it's about people who overuse certain builds are the people who don't make ED as fun as it could possibly be. I'm hoping that with the more flexible weapon customization that omega brings, at least more variations of certain overused builds will come so that there's different types of opponents to fight rather than the same repetitive ones.
Epic  Post #: 8
12/1/2012 21:28:06   
TRizZzCENTRINO
Member

i won't be 100% surprized if strength builds and 5 focus bloodmages still dominate this game after the omega update. to me thats the most overused class and build currently, havnt played ED for 6 days cuz of this. you know what its like to keep getting into 1v1 meeting strength spamming bloodmage and smoke massacre hunters? and now they have also migrated into 2v2 :(

< Message edited by TRizZzCENTRINO -- 12/1/2012 21:30:18 >
MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 9
12/1/2012 23:15:12   
arthropleura
Member

with the current stat limitations... its hard to do more unique builds. the only weps that would be unique is if everyone had beta, which we dont.
i made a unique bm caster build with max plasma multi and lvl 4 sc, but its only 75% win chance compared to str with around 85...
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 10
12/2/2012 0:27:58   
Metallico
Member

We are forgeting that people with beta equipment will be oped, they wont have requirements so they will maybe return to the leaderboards...

i mean pro players like barneystillpwnsu and illuminator, founders will have a great power.

I would also like to try some old school builds like support mercenary after the balance update...

Also they have to nerf strenght because with this update it could get even more Oped..
Epic  Post #: 11
12/2/2012 0:37:02   
Rayman
Banned


 ^
Beta weps dont have reqs but still they are removing requierents of all the other weps, and be sure that beta weps won't be OP. For sure
AQW Epic  Post #: 12
12/2/2012 1:59:01   
Hard boy
Member

i really hate the fact that ED has come to a point where all you have to do is spend 100$ on top equipment and max enchancements then copy a build from the forums.
ahh miss the days when u would actually look at ur weps stats, and by that u know what type of build suits u, not just oh i want a str build relocate all enchancements on str, i want dex build relocate all enchancements on dex.
like for real its really boring to log in play and u basically never find something new, everytime i log in its either an ultra tank tlm, str BM, str bounty. never find a techmage, never find a merc. i dont even get this community anymore like do u really have fun with ur str build? or just torturing urself, and they dont only play for an hour or 2, this thing lasts for the whole day which makes me wonder what happend to humanity.
Epic  Post #: 13
12/2/2012 3:10:14   
theholyfighter
Member

Actually, I doubt that Oped builds will be way too Oped, since their stats will be limited. BTW, next week, when they announce how Enhancements work, this discussion might turn into a new story.


~Just my thoughts tho.

< Message edited by theholyfighter -- 12/2/2012 3:11:22 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 14
12/2/2012 11:43:44   
Midnightsoul
Member

You guys never know if you can be wrong because they CAN be fixing up skill trees and stuff for each class so who knows? I hope we're wrong...
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 15
12/2/2012 11:55:19   
  Exploding Penguin
Moderator


 As I've said multiple times, hopefully with Omega stat distribution will be more open and there'll at least be many different varieties of certain overused builds. I'd still prefer no enhancements though, there's a matter of it being very spendy, as well as just making certain stats and builds seem OP, which they aren't. Strength is definitely not OP in the slightest, it takes forever just to gain another +1 damage once you've reached around 60 strength or so. I guess what I really want is for more people to start actually thinking and becoming creative when they're retraining, rather than copying some Grand Emperor's build or looking up something on the forums (not saying the section on the forums for battle strategy is bad, I'm just saying it shouldn't be promoting "build copying").
Epic  Post #: 16
12/3/2012 15:44:40   
Pallosalama
Member

I don't see problems with people using overused builds, for example Smoke str BH is easy to beat in 1v1, just rebuff after smoke and they are pretty helpless...

On other hand, I play most of time 2v2 and it just makes me feel bad to see so many mercenaries with BunkerBuster + Berzerker with physical weapon, sigh.
Altough, there isn't any specific build that would pop up very often seeing for even such boring build like Str BH there is countless amount of variations, which maybe do not add that much new at least give little different builds to fight against.

Personally bad builds annoy me more than overused ones.
AQ Epic  Post #: 17
12/3/2012 16:00:47   
  Exploding Penguin
Moderator


 @above:
bad builds don't annoy me unless it was just copied off of someone else, and it wasn't the player's original creation. What I really want to see in the players of Epicduel is creativity and strategy. Many people don't mind overused builds like strength BH/focus TLM, and all those other examples, and that's fine. It's all opinion. I'm just saying that the extreme abundance of a set type of build per class where 70% of each class is using almost the same build pretty much reduces the amount of fun you can actually get out of ED (fun also being an opinion-based term, please don't flame me because of my usage of it). As of now, I could enjoy ED almost twice as much if more build creativity was promoted and many players actually experimented with multiple different build types. I guess what annoys me the most is when players say "I'm gonna switch to (insert class name), because it gets fast wins!" or something of the like. That just really gets on my nerves, because I'm like: "Whatever happened to trying ALL the builds you could make? You could possibly come across some REALLY good ones that no one's thought of yet!"
Epic  Post #: 18
12/3/2012 19:41:59   
veneeria
Member

I suggested a while ago about down sides, such as having high str, not sure if people will notice this at all again but try to support me if you agree:

At a certain point of str ( when it is considered too high ), the player should get a certain penalization such as "missing attacks more often/blocked" and "being deflected more often".

My suggestion, but not entirely needed to kill str builds, i think they are great.

Not going to post the whole downside suggestion here, not the place. :/

_____________________________
AQ AQW Epic  Post #: 19
12/3/2012 19:52:01   
TRizZzCENTRINO
Member

yes, strength builds is still overused currently and they don't really get blocked often and can kill you in 3-4 hits if no deflections or blocks happens during the battle, so it takes the fun out of 1v1, i like strategic and long 1v1 battles and not the ones that ends in 30 seconds with me mostly defeated. (and i got a great build)
MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 20
12/3/2012 19:55:19   
Mother1
Member

@ exploding penguin

They were nerfed into the ground that is what happened. People came up with creative builds, people copied them, the masses who didn't lost to them a lot and started complaining. The staff listening to these players nerf the moves these builds use to satisfy the upset players.

The people using these builds then tried to adapt and find a new build to use and the cycle of people complaining cause they can't beat (insert creative build that was copied because it is a winner here) the staff nerfs it and then the cycle starts all over again.

All of these nerfs have weakened many builds and overpowered other classes in the process only for them to get nerfed. That is what happened to all the builds. They were nerfed into the ground because they were either legitally OP or whiner complained cause they want to win but can't beat the build when the fact of the matter is certain builds are suppose to struggle against other builds since that is where the balance lies. If it is 100% wins all the time then that build is OP and it legitimacy needs a nerf but most people don't see this.
Epic  Post #: 21
12/3/2012 19:58:34   
Blaze The Aion Ender
Member

Veneeria, I have also suggested something like that
And trizzz, I once fought you, and you said you would beat me if you were using your focus build, since I had won
Some day, we shall random 1v1 have a rematch, and we will have a nice, long, intense fight with our tank/focus builds, sound cool ;P

Here are my thoughts on overused builds for each class

BH- Str abuse
Merc- Not really used enough for an overused build
TLM- 5 focus (I use 4 focus, 'cause I'm hipster like 'dat)
BM- Str abuse or 5 focus
CH- Str abuse
TM: 5 focus or caster

There's an outline
If you're using any of these, I suggest trying something new, something creative, ya' never know, it might just work wonders

Edit: @OP, 1/3 of my fights are against str bounties too, I made my build to destroy them with the help of 2 boosters xD
It is so easy, I just take energy once or twice, and boost until their smokescreen is over, and they are defenseless

< Message edited by Blaze The Aion Ender -- 12/3/2012 20:00:05 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 22
12/3/2012 20:26:56   
  Exploding Penguin
Moderator


 @Mother1: Definitely noticed the nerfing of creative build skills. Why did plasma cannon get nerfed when barely anyone was using it, and those who did had builds that were obviously not OP? Plasma bolt/defense matrix buff also made no sense (well, def matrix energy cost lowering actually rebalanced CH, but totally made TM OP for a period of time). Also, switching plasma rain to increase with dexterity broke the diverse system between 2v2 builds of all classes, and it didn't even make caster builds much less OP. Now pretty much the only 2v2 TMs are focus builds, rather than tech-users, as there's no more multi which increases with tech (2 with dex, 1 with supp). It's as if the ED staff are making fights less interesting and more boring. If they wanted to nerf caster builds, just redo PB scaling cause its scaling is INSANE.
Epic  Post #: 23
12/3/2012 20:55:39   
Mother1
Member

@ exploding Penguin

Back when I started Plasma bolt was weaker then it is now. However Rabble buffed TM because at the lower levels they were getting their butts handed to them. However by doing this he OP caster TM even more at Low-mid to high levels. I use alts and they get two turned with max malf max plasma bolt and it isn't even funny.

As for why they switched Plasma rain to dex it was because of the sorry excuse of a buff Rabble gave TM. He lowered the cool down of plasma rain to two turns from three, made it improve with 3 tech like he did with plasma bolt. Every two turns caster builds would use Plasma bolt, Plasma rain (X move) Plasma bolt Plasma rain heal if needed etc. It was destroying the masses so they switched it so casters couldn't destroy everything with tech.

However this not only destroyed multi builds (along with the nerf to multi attacks since they were nerfed to 85%) But didn't help with the OP mess he made but never changed back. That is what happened.

Also with the scaling I can agree with you since I remember losing to a caster in two vs two who at the start has 154 tech on his own (tech abuse build) plus 46 tech from technician (his partner gave him) and I got hit with a rage plasma bolt which did 74 damage to me without even critting. Worse to wear I had 36-42 Resist when this happened. I know I lose 45% of that when they rage but that attack was insane and worse to were I had 68 health left which was a lot for my build.
Epic  Post #: 24
12/3/2012 21:07:54   
VornWrath
Member

This game has lost almost all diversity...I mostly see strength abuse or 5 focus builds at the high levels. The fact that most new items focus on strength also doesn't help. I miss using support builds, but there are hardly any good support items nowadays, and the support stat itself isn't as good as it could be. I wanna be able to play this game just to have fun. Too bad that's not possible these days with the lack of build variety. I really hope the Omega update fixes these issues.

< Message edited by VornWrath -- 12/3/2012 21:14:44 >
Epic  Post #: 25
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