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stun grenade makes no sense for tlm

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6/19/2013 10:42:02   
zion
Member

Stun grenade made sense when tlm had smoke. The extremely low physical damage is OK if the opponent has no defense (see BH). TLM's however, have a passive physical shield which allows for middle-of-the-road dex. Just return maul to the TLM as it makes much more sense.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 1
6/19/2013 10:46:03   
Mysterion.
Member

They had removed Maul form the TLMs because of Reroute.
If TLMs have maul again, they will be able to consistently try to stun with average dmg and nearly no Energy cost.

This would OP them for sure.

Besides that, this is a Balance issue.
Epic  Post #: 2
6/19/2013 10:50:23   
zion
Member

Stun grenade has a higher base stun for cheaper cost - so don't understand your comment... Nor do I understand why you turned this into a balance thread. It is a suggestion for a possible skill tree adjustment based on synergy - not based on balance and numbers etc...
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 3
6/19/2013 10:53:01   
Ranloth
Banned
quote:

They had removed Maul form the TLMs because of Reroute.

No. Maul was removed due to Smoke + pre-nerf Frenzy which gave TLMs quite an OP Strength build when coupled together. Now Smoke is gone and Frenzy was nerfed. Furthermore, diminishing returns on Strength made Strength abuse much weaker than it was back then.

Just some factual data to justify it. Taken from Release Log/Delta, "EpicDuel Delta 1.4.1c/d - Friday, January 6th":
quote:

  • TLM - Replace Maul with Stun Grenade
    • Keeps stun skill; removes easy, low cost damage skill
    •

    < Message edited by Trans -- 6/19/2013 10:59:59 >
    AQ Epic  Post #: 4
    6/19/2013 12:03:33   
      Exploding Penguin
    Moderator


    		 Easiest solution would just be to buff stun grenade by increasing base damage, scaling, or the stat that it improves with. An easy way to make stun grenade far more useful on TLM would just be to have it increase with tech, but then it would OP BHs because of the smoke synergy.
    Epic  Post #: 5
    6/19/2013 12:04:31   
    Mysterion.
    Member

    quote:

    TLM - Replace Maul with Stun Grenade
    Keeps stun skill; removes easy, low cost damage skil

    Seems to me that it actually was one of the reasons.
    Since they had Reroute, it was easy to consistently use a stun move due to low energy cost.

    It doesn't say it was because of the Strength builds over there, eh?

    @Zion
    A suggestion to change the skill tree is related to Balance.
    If you didn't know, these Suggestions forum are for possible features/weapons/cores and such.
    With cheaper cost i mean the energy cost, maul has a low energy cost.
    Epic  Post #: 6
    6/19/2013 12:05:19   
      Exploding Penguin
    Moderator


    		 It might actually be OK now to return maul, because with lower HP comes less effective reroute than before, as well as the fact that strength damage output has also been severely reduced.
    Epic  Post #: 7
    6/19/2013 12:05:28   
    killerman164
    Member
     
    quote:

    Easiest solution would just be to buff stun grenade by increasing base damage, scaling, or the stat that it improves with. An easy way to make stun grenade far more useful on TLM would just be to have it increase with tech, but then it would OP BHs because of the smoke synergy.

    Unless you replace the stun grenade with plasma grenade.

    < Message edited by killerman164 -- 6/19/2013 14:07:46 >
    Post #: 8
    6/19/2013 12:11:04   
    Ranloth
    Banned


    		 Because what we need is to give TLMs a few more Tech skills so they can abuse it with SS + IA + MA to cover for Defence. With Reroute on top of it, it's an overkill. Maul should be returned to TLMs since it poses no threat anymore and could give 'em a boost (any build can take advantage of it + blockable means it can miss, obviously).

    Mysterion, before you take it apart, it says "easy, low cost damage skill" which means it can be abused for power. How? It ignores 20% defence. ;) Don't take post apart and use what fits you and ignore the crucial part, because you seem to be wrong here. ;)
    Furthermore, Maul isn't that cheap. 12 EP at Lvl 1 and 30 EP at Lvl 10. It easily matches (not exactly) cost of Grenades which is 13-31 EP or 16-34 EP for Plasma version. ;)

    < Message edited by Trans -- 6/19/2013 12:14:07 >
    AQ Epic  Post #: 9
    6/19/2013 12:36:17   
    Mysterion.
    Member

    quote:

    Mysterion, before you take it apart, it says "easy, low cost damage skill" which means it can be abused for power. How? It ignores 20% defence. ;)

    Every skill can be abused for power, Trans.

    quote:

    Don't take post apart and use what fits you and ignore the crucial part, because you seem to be wrong here. ;)

    Am I now?
    Did i say it was the only reason it was taken away?
    quote:

    Seems to me that it actually was one of the reasons.

    No.
    I (clearly) said it was one of the reasons, might want to read better next time.
    Like i said, it has a lower energy cost which could be one of the reasons, not the only one.

    quote:

    Maul should be returned to TLMs since it poses no threat anymore and could give 'em a boost (any build can take advantage of it + blockable means it can miss, obviously).

    Double Strike - Frenzy - Double Strike - (rage) Maul.
    Deadly combo with reroute especially, so, No thank you.

    < Message edited by Mysterion. -- 6/19/2013 12:37:02 >
    Epic  Post #: 10
    6/19/2013 12:40:30   
    Ranloth
    Banned
    quote:

    Every skill can be abused for power

    With exception of Stun Grenade.
    quote:

    Double Strike - Frenzy - Double Strike - (rage) Maul.
    Deadly combo with reroute especially, so, No thank you.

    DS needs training to be efficient, so does Frenzy and Maul depends if you want better Stun. What do they share in common? They are blockable. Even though they have Reroute, they wouldn't end up being anywhere near OP as they were with Smoke and pre-nerf Frenzy, as well as old stat progression which gave you much more damage.
    AQ Epic  Post #: 11
    6/19/2013 12:46:22   
    Mysterion.
    Member

    quote:

    With exception of Stun Grenade.

    It improves it's power with a stat, making it possible to abuse, specially for dex BHs, no?

    quote:

    DS needs training to be efficient, so does Frenzy and Maul depends if you want better Stun. What do they share in common? They are blockable. Even though they have Reroute, they wouldn't end up being anywhere near OP as they were with Smoke and pre-nerf Frenzy, as well as old stat progression which gave you much more damage.

    Beginning of Omega, Str Mercs with Maul Berz and/or DB.
    All their moves were blockable, yet OP.

    Good statement to call them not OP because they are blockable?
    No.
    Epic  Post #: 12
    6/19/2013 13:00:14   
    Ranloth
    Banned
    quote:

    It improves it's power with a stat, making it possible to abuse, specially for dex BHs, no?

    Wait. We're talking about TLMs here, I don't need to know what BHs can do with it due to Smoke or Stun + Multi combo. :3
    quote:

    Beginning of Omega, Str Mercs with Maul Berz and/or DB.
    All their moves were blockable, yet OP.

    Bolded parts. It's not beginning of Omega anymore, diminishing returns on Strength have been put (big difference) and the respectable skills were nerfed %-wise (but Maul). :)
    AQ Epic  Post #: 13
    6/19/2013 13:04:41   
    Khalix
    Member

    		Let's invent a fancy new skill called "Tactical Grenade" that scales the same way as stun grenades but has a 40% base chance to stun and a cooldown of 3.

    ---

    I think what the OP is saying is that damage done using stun grenades scale too slowly with level and overbuffs their defense and lowers their resistance (Due to less skill points) if skill points are spent on them.

    I'm thinking he wants a fancy damage buff or an alternate skill.
    Epic  Post #: 14
    6/19/2013 13:13:20   
    Mysterion.
    Member

    quote:

    Wait. We're talking about TLMs here, I don't need to know what BHs can do with it due to Smoke or Stun + Multi combo. :3

    You didn't say it was TLM specific.

    quote:

    Bolded parts. It's not beginning of Omega anymore, diminishing returns on Strength have been put (big difference) and the respectable skills were nerfed %-wise (but Maul). :)

    Which would make it impossible to get OP?
    I do not think so, even a str merc can still win some battles, and they don't even have reroute to recover their energy.

    Diminishing returns =/= Impossible to get OP.
    Epic  Post #: 15
    6/19/2013 13:17:43   
    Ranloth
    Banned


    		 But I thought the thread was about "stun grenade makes no sense for tlm", do I really have to specify that I meant it for TLMs, especially when I've been discussing TLMs in the past few posts..?
    AQ Epic  Post #: 16
    6/19/2013 15:21:53   
      Exploding Penguin
    Moderator


    		 @Mysterion: Skills definitely have increased power over normal attacks now, but I'd still say that skills like stun grenade and plasma grenade in particular cannot be abused for power simply because of the terrible skill point investment scaling, dex/tech scaling, high energy cost, and the fact that energy must be spent in a more careful manner than using it on high-energy costing skills with low stun chances and no damage like plasma grenade.
    Epic  Post #: 17
    6/19/2013 17:10:17   
    The Incredible Hulk
    Banned

     

    		 Yup, it doesn't make any sense to use stun grenade as a Tlm. Most of the skills in this class doesn't increase with dexterity. Although IMO maul was taken out of TLM because of the following 'Technician'' and ''smoke''. Since I remember when TLM first came out, people use STR builds where tehy technician, smoke, then maul (max) for firstly because maul did a high damage because of STR but also because of the percentage to stun which gives you a guarantee win. That is why it got replaced with stun grenade since it does a weaker damage although technician has been removed with smoke. While frenzy has got a nerf.

    Supported



    Off topic:

    quote:

    But I thought the thread was about "stun grenade makes no sense for tlm", do I really have to specify that I meant it for TLMs, especially when I've been discussing TLMs in the past few posts..?


    I think he is so bored that he wants to chat in forums & reply to every comment he can
    Epic  Post #: 18
    6/19/2013 17:30:58   
    Dual Thrusters
    Member

    quote:

    Stun grenade has a higher base stun for cheaper cost


    Yes it does......at level 1

    ATM it is not worth investing skill points into, which needs to be fixed.

    Just increase the damage scaling on it. If that were to happen, Cyber Hunter's plasma grenade would also need a buff too. Remember, buffing stun grenade would also buff it for Bounty Hunters so we need a little balance check there.
    MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 19
    6/20/2013 1:22:10   
    Khalix
    Member

    		If you buff it by damage, then it could become something like a grenade version of plasma bolt with a chance to stun.

    High power, low cost with an added bonus to stun.
    Epic  Post #: 20
    6/20/2013 1:29:14   
    ND Mallet
    Legendary AK!!!


    		 The grenades have a low damage because they stun. It's also why Overload is weaker than Plasma Bolt. As for it not making sense; Tactical Mercenary. They learned from their enemies and took some of their skills. They learned energy regen and health regen and also borrowed some grenades from BHs. It's right in the class description.
    AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 21
    6/20/2013 1:29:40   
    GearzHeadz
    Member

    		Stun grenade has a good deal of damage while maxed and with good dex. I am a BH who uses a dex build.
    My dex-141
    Max Stun Grenade-64 physical damage
    Cost-31 energy

    < Message edited by GearzHeadz -- 6/20/2013 1:30:22 >
    DF AQW Epic  Post #: 22
    6/20/2013 1:52:34   
    Dual Thrusters
    Member

    		@Gear

    That's the thing: BHs
    They can superpower stun grenade with reflex boost and smoke whereas TLMs cannot. They need to rely on their own relative dex, which is impossible. They have mineral armor so they do not need to invest stat points! Cyber hunter also has the same problem with plasma grenade.

    So in short, it depends on what this week's update does to these passive armors. Otherwise to balance this we would need to swap stun grenade with plasma grenade.
    MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 23
    6/20/2013 2:00:29   
    GearzHeadz
    Member

    		@Dual
    1. 141 is my dex without reflex boost.
    2. You did raise another valid point about synergy of the mineral to stun grenade and plasma to plasma grenade.
    3. Incorporation of plasma and mineral armors are optional, not a requirement. If they want to successfully incorporate these grenades, they could use the passive armor skills towards the grenade.
    4. Perhaps they should just switch mineral armor and plasma armor between the classes?
    DF AQW Epic  Post #: 24
    6/20/2013 2:04:46   
    Dual Thrusters
    Member

    		Switching mineral and plasma armor would be a better idea lol O_O
    MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 25
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