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BM Energy Drain

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6/4/2013 6:41:00   
Ranloth
Banned


 As we know, every class has an Energy draining skill and BM still remains the only class without one. Whilst it may have been fine in Delta, the introduction of cores has allowed classes to fill in the niche, such as being able to debuff (Curse + Override) for TLMs that don't have a debuff or drain Energy for BMs without an EP drain, but is that enough? With recent buffs to the likes of Assimilation and Static Smash, they are falling behind other classes. If Atom (TLM) gets buffed, BMs will be at even worse disadvantage and no core will be able to fill in the niche.

My suggestion is simple and shouldn't really overpower BMs, give them an EP drain similar to Assimilation. Before you say anything, I'll post all the information:
<<placeholder for a good name>>:
Energy Required: 0 (No Cost)
Energy Drain (Progression depends on Character Level):

Level 1: 6
Level 2: 7
Level 3: 8
Level 4: 9
Level 5: 10
Level 6: 11
Level 7: 12
Level 8: 13
Level 9: 14
Level 10: 15

Weapon Required: Staff
Stat Required: None
Level Required: 5
Improves With: Strength (+1 Energy per 8 Strength)
Warm Up: 0
Cool Down: 3

It's basically Assimilation without the EP return and the effect can be blocked (unlike Assimilation's). Making it improve with Strength is a good idea because I'd want it to replace Bludgeon, so it'd still provide 100% damage (not 85%) and give you an EP drain to compensate for a loss of a damaging skill without necessarily destroying Strength builds completely for BMs. Leaving the Staff requirement is a good idea so the skill won't end up a must for every build but have a restriction - just like Static Smash. To compensate for it, it has "1 EP/8 Str" instead of "1 EP/9 Str" like Assimilaiton has which does make a difference once you invest enough stat points into Strength.
In other words, it's slightly empowered version of Assimilation when to comes to draining + deals 100% damage as opposed to 85%, but has Staff requirement to prevent the abuse with Swords, thus leaving incentive to use Staves as a BM.

< Message edited by Trans -- 6/23/2013 18:33:34 >
AQ Epic  Post #: 1
6/4/2013 6:48:15   
chusen
Member

oooohhhh this will be so interesting :D
i think its a good trade off :D
i support it :D <im serious>
BM class really needed this so yeah
and also people who wanted this nerfed
say now or never say anything about it again :P
or maybe meh just discuss it if they release the skill at an OP rate just like they did with the others XD
and i didn't say static smasher is OP since mercs really needed that boost....

and oh i almost forgot...
they need to make firebolt like... or maybe the same but still physical damage just like plasma bolt now :)
^just a suggestion ^_^

< Message edited by chusen -- 6/4/2013 6:58:01 >
Post #: 2
6/4/2013 7:18:46   
toopygoo
Member

good idea. anything about the energy cost though?
i think it shouldnt be free, and neither should assimilation, static charge of static smash.
i think all of those skills should cost three energy, (except charge, should cost 1)
just so you cant loop from 0 energy, and so even these skill can be put out of battle due to lack of energy. (of course assimilation can be run off reroute, but it can give them a few turns of "forced cooldown")

< Message edited by toopygoo -- 6/4/2013 7:22:23 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 3
6/4/2013 7:38:56   
Ranloth
Banned


 If we were to give an EP cost, the power goes up proportionally to the EP cost, so I prefered to give it no EP cost and power similar to that of Assimilation + they have no EP regeneration unlike other classes with EP draining skills so y'know. BHs have BL and no EP regeneration but EMP's power is way beyond that of Assimilation (drain wise, not EP return).
Blockable effect would also make it powerful but not really powerful, especially with no EP cost. It'd only drain Energy, nothing else. Since it's blockable, the lower your Dex, the more you'll miss.
AQ Epic  Post #: 4
6/4/2013 7:50:41   
Mysterion.
Member

quote:

so it'd still provide 100% damage (not 85%) and give you an EP drain to compensate for a loss of a damaging skill without necessarily destroying Strength builds completely for BMs.

It would indeed not destroy it, but it will certainly make those builds UP.
Only viable str build will be forced to use a Staff, and due to the loss of the Passive DA in the upcoming change it will certainly be UP.

Let's first wait and see how the passive converting to actives will go along.
Epic  Post #: 5
6/4/2013 7:58:28   
Ranloth
Banned


 Yeah, I'm aware of such as well. Unless you restrict it just for Staves? This would give Strength builds an advantage over those who prefer Swords, I dunno. But yeah, I'd rather wait and then see.
AQ Epic  Post #: 6
6/4/2013 9:31:37   
daredevil0420
Member

Very good idea
Supported.
AQW Epic  Post #: 7
6/4/2013 10:12:58   
Bloodpact
Member

u know i support this ,but yeah we should wait for the update.

_____________________________

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Epic  Post #: 8
6/4/2013 12:22:45   
Ranloth
Banned


 I've tried altering it after re-reading Mysterion's post. I've lowered the EP drained by -1 at all levels and put the improvement at +1 EP per 10 Strength (from 9 Str). In return, I've given it +1.5% bonus in damage per each level trained, so Lvl 10 'Assimilation' would still deal less damage than Lvl 1 Bludgeon but not be forced to Physical. Let's remember that 10% damage boost with +35 weapon and okay Strength (13-16) gives us total of 48-51 * 1.1 = 53-57 damage, considering it lands.

Tl;dr:
  • Improvement changed from +1 EP / 9 Strength -> +1 EP / 10 Strength
  • -1 less base EP drained at all levels
  • +1% more damage per each level trained

    Let's remember, if the opponent has no EP, you cannot use the skill for pure damage. It's supposed to drain Energy only, but would be good if it'd still remain a bit strong. It's better than nothing.

    < Message edited by Trans -- 6/4/2013 12:23:12 >
    • AQ Epic  Post #: 9
    6/4/2013 14:08:04   
    Bloodpact
    Member

    		^ so your looking at like 18-20 EP Drain on average with the dmg of Meteor shower at max, interesting. I would love it. +1

    I also wanted to look into another idea( a sub assimilation idea ) where it's cool down would be 2 turns instead

    would half it's current rating, this would cut down on the impact of blocks by half.

    < Message edited by Bloodpact -- 6/6/2013 5:02:52 >
    Epic  Post #: 10
    6/4/2013 14:11:57   
    Ranloth
    Banned


    		 Yeah. Pretty much, but the difference is blocks which can cut the damage and effect down to 15%. Not mentioning you'd need 10 'spare' skill points to even get such drain and damage.

    2 turn cooldown could end up abuseable, even with proportionally lower power because the damage would still go through and you could loop it if blocked. That's why I liked the Strength improvement - you need Dex to connect the attack rather than sheer Strength abuse and hope it doesn't get blocked despite the low Dex.
    AQ Epic  Post #: 11
    6/5/2013 15:53:27   
    SylvanElf
    Member
     

    		 Rare that I agree with Trans, but I support this idea, and it looks balanced enough to me, given it has a possibility of being blocked to compensate for the damage bonus.
    Post #: 12
    6/6/2013 6:11:46   
    DarkDevil
    Member

    		i support the idea but this one will have to replace deadly aim due to that you do gain extra damage + your drain energy but its really good idea.

    Support.
    but don't u think 1 point for every 10 str is a lil bit strong as a BM with the usually 120 str will have a huge energy draining effect and huge damage.

    < Message edited by DarkDevil -- 6/6/2013 6:13:23 >
    AQ Epic  Post #: 13
    6/6/2013 6:21:29   
    Ranloth
    Banned


    		 Assimilation has 1 EP per 9 Strength yet that one is fine. The argument of DA is also irrelevant, it will not be a passive after tomorrow's update and you cannot remove a passive since each class has at least two, so you'd have to give them another one. Furthermore, BloodLust will be an active skill as well so it really won't make BMs different from other Strength builds apart from when BL is activated.

    So I don't see why 10% more damage at Lvl 10 is bad (it's roughly +5 damage more at cost of 10 skill points), the effect is blockable which makes it superior to Assimilation and slower progression does take its toll as well. 120 Strength and Lvl 10 'Assimilation' would mean you drain 26 EP at Lvl 10 with a chance to get blocked due to low Dex + damage. Lastly, I don't see what DA has to do with this - DA doesn't affect Melee attacks? Based on this, Bludgeon is too OP because of DA and the damage boost it gives (50% at Lvl 10!).
    AQ Epic  Post #: 14
    6/6/2013 6:23:56   
    Bloodpact
    Member

    		1 point of EP drain for 10 points being strong O_O.... what??? it's even worst
    rationed then assimilation by 2 points of str per EP drain to compensate for it being BM's

    and it can't replace deadly aim since it's BM 2nd passive.

    Too much dmg?? it's replacing a +50% dmg move for a +10%dmg + decent EP drain move with 1
    turn longer of a cool down and no energy return.
    Epic  Post #: 15
    6/6/2013 6:28:10   
    DarkDevil
    Member

    		bludegon should not be replaced because its barely the only damage skill (like masacre and berzeker and double slash) and by removing it your make BMs without any weapon liked nuke which really hurts the early levels.

    and we donno yet how will the skills become active , things like retour and shadow arts and deadly aim doesn't really look to be actives so they could change to totally another skill.
    but changing bloodlust to a skill like frenzy but with no cost is rather dump but it should get a boost when changed to active.

    and because deadly aim affects the sidearm and an active skill can't include sidearm cus if the person doesn't have a sidearm so i do think this skill should replace deadly aim.

    < Message edited by DarkDevil -- 6/6/2013 6:34:07 >
    AQ Epic  Post #: 16
    6/6/2013 6:34:15   
    Ranloth
    Banned


    		 That's why I'm giving it some damage boost to replace Bludgeon, since it's a damaging skill. Taking out DA does cripple Strength builds for BMs much more than taking out Bludgeon. Not only Strength builds, many BMs use DA so you're nerfing the whole class for sake of EP drain. In that case, I'd not want an EP drain. >.>

    Reroute, DA and SA don't look good as actives? Numbers will be changed. Reroute may end up giving you 60% damage taken in as Energy for 5 turns before you must activate it again, SA could lower all Melee damage coming in by a set % (in place of block), etc. That's why they took another week to test it thoroughly and make sure it's balanced.
    AQ Epic  Post #: 17
    6/6/2013 6:43:28   
    DarkDevil
    Member

    		that's what i ment by changing the skills is because not even a 100% block active will benfit but the skill changing to a skill that reduces all damage done would be usefull.
    things like DA can't be linked to sidearm when changed to active so it will change to probably a skill related to str and not sidearm.
    retour may change too but 60% seems high maybe 50% at max.
    AQ Epic  Post #: 18
    6/6/2013 6:45:31   
    Ranloth
    Banned


    		 This isn't a thread to discuss active skills. And why so? DA could be changed to boost damage for Sidearms for the next 3 Gun uses, and after that, it fades away & boost may be bigger than it is now to compensate for turn cost + the fact Sidearm cannot be spammed each turn.

    This is a suggestion for an EP drain for BMs, not how passives will look like as active skills.
    AQ Epic  Post #: 19
    6/6/2013 6:54:29   
    DarkDevil
    Member

    		i was discussing what it would replace not about others since a BM have bloodlust too along with DA and the thread master mentioned retour. you mentioned other energy regaining skill.

    < Message edited by DarkDevil -- 6/6/2013 6:59:17 >
    AQ Epic  Post #: 20
    6/6/2013 6:58:46   
    Ranloth
    Banned


    		 BMs will not have passive BloodLust, BMs will not have passive DA, and no, I did NOT mention Reroute anywhere (not Retour). The argument of the combo being too OP is not valid especially if you assume them as passive skills.

    Also, it'd replace Bludgeon. If you have your own suggestion as of to what it should replace, you're welcome to create your own thread.
    AQ Epic  Post #: 21
    6/7/2013 12:21:51   
    kosmo
    Member
     

    		 i have already sujjested this, and guess who flamed me as hell? you trans. (something like 3 weeks ago)
    whatever bm is still the best class right now (bloodlust is OP), i usually get in lb whit a 90% win ratio, and belive me or not this is just impossible whit other class.
    so i can agree bm should have an energy drain aswell but it should replace a good moove (for example intimidate)
    Epic  Post #: 22
    6/7/2013 12:25:11   
    Ranloth
    Banned


    		 Three weeks ago was pre-buff Static Smash, you realise that, right? Not mentioning change of passives to active skills which wasn't announced back then. There's quite a difference where in the past, it was passive BL + Assimilation and now it'll be a whole 'nother story. >_>

    Intimidate? No. Removing debuff means you give them another debuff or passive Armor (or passive EP regen). Why? Each class needs to have 2 of those: passive Armor, passive HP or EP regen, a debuff. You're removing one so exchange for another. Passive Armors will remain in the active version since they'll be different to Shields.

    Btw, Intimidate isn't good after numerous changes to Strength. <.< I used Intimidate build for a while so I can see the big difference between pre-nerf and post-nerf.
    AQ Epic  Post #: 23
    6/7/2013 12:52:54   
    kosmo
    Member
     

    		 1st of all we cant discuss on passives becoming actives, we have no info so we can only speculate.
    static smash is a balanced and needed moove, i have a merc, and i know how far this class can go, u just cant have enought defence and resistence to counter both bh and glass tm.
    bm is the only class that has both shields and intimidate if u know how to use them properly u can counter evry class and build easely and u are gonna find urself loosing only on luk.
    Epic  Post #: 24
    6/7/2013 12:56:14   
    Ranloth
    Banned


    		 TMs have both Shields and can Malf. BHs have both Shields and can Smoke. I don't see your point. I don't care if Static Smash is balanced or not, the point is that every class owns a strong EP draining skill (TLMs have very good Energy control as it is anyway) and BMs are lacking now, a lot.
    I'm not discussing passives to actives. You've missed the point, again. The only reason why I've suggested this now is due to Static Smash buff (justified above) and the change of passives to active skills which means having EP draining skill coupled with BloodLust (like it was before with BMs having Assimilation) does NOT apply anymore and BMs could have an EP draining skill.
    AQ Epic  Post #: 25
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