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Minor Improvements, Major Effect

 
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7/29/2013 21:23:23   
Nexus...
Member

Hey Everyone =)

First Turn
One of my biggest issues with EpicDuel right now is the first turn mechanic. Because of many other aspects of the game that I will discuss later, the player who receives the first turn usually has a very large advantage over their opponent right from the start of the match. I also think that one of the largest things that first turn influences is rage. Therefore I think the best solution can be found through the adjustment of how first turn affects rage, but other solutions might work as well if refined.

The Problem:
First turn has too large of an impact on the outcome of a match.

Possible Solutions:
1. The player who gets the first turn advantage should not gain any rage from his/her attack (whether it be gun/aux, basic attack, or a skill)
2. The player who does not receive the first turn advantage should gain a set amount of rage (ie. 30%)
3. The player who does not receive the first turn advantage should gain a temporary boost to his/her rage generation rate (ie. 150% [50% increase] for 2 turns)
4. The player who does not receive the first turn advantage should gain a stat boost for his/her next attack
5. The player who gets the first turn advantage should have their passives sent into cooldown for a duration of 1 or 2 turns.
6. The player who gets the first turn advantage should have all on hit effects(cores) and chance for critical strike disabled.

These are just a couple of the ideas that have been circulating for a good amount of time. Whether you agree or disagree with my ideas, I think it is safe to say that first turn presents an unfair advantage, and the opposing player deserves compensation.


Damage
I think how damage works in this game is one of the underlying and fundamental problems we are currently seeing. Right now, each damage dealing skill and attack holds too much weight. If an attack is blocked it can utterly ruin a fight for one person, where as critical strikes and deflects have the same effect. I cannot tell you how many times I have seen the tide of a match changed because someone's rage is blocked, when said persons dexterity is far higher etc.

The Problem:
The damage dealt in each turn is too easily affected by luck.

Possible Solutions:
This is something I have been thinking about a lot lately, and after reading a recent thread about animations, I had an idea which I think could absolutely change this game for the better. So what is it? Segmented damage. Each skill/attack will be broken down into a series of segments (animations). Each segment would hold a percentage of the total damage. To paint the picture, I'll use a quick example. Lets say you choose to deal a basic attack, and the engine roles that you will do 25 damage. You are completely reliant on this one attack to deal the damage you intend for that turn. If you are blocked, you deal only a fraction of the damage you needed, if you are deflected, you deal only half, and if you critically strike, you can easily ruin the match for your opponent. What segmented damage would allow for, is a unique roll for each segment. What this means (sorry very hard to explain): If you choose to do a basic attack, and the engine rolls that you are supposed to deal 25 damage, you will deal 5 attacks (example, can be changed), each dealing 20% of your total intended damage (ie. 20% of 25 == 5 damage) per segment. However, where it really gets interesting is that since each segment will require a unique roll, each segment will have a chance to be blocked, deflected, or do critical damage. This will allow for a far higher diversity of luck, while making it so luck does not have as large of an impact on the game. Say 2 of your segments (attack animations) are blocked, thats only 40% of your damage being negated instead of 95% (or whatever it is now). Critical strikes and deflects would work the same way. They might occur more often, but they would have far less of an impact, AND there would be a higher chance for your opponents luck to be negated by your own luck every single turn. Furthermore, the person with the higher stat (dex, tech, supp) would have a far greater chance for his/her stat of choice to work its effect per turn (and per game).

All in all, I did a lot of thinking, and I think this solution would work spectacularly. It might seem a little rough around the edges, and poorly explained right now, but that is my fault. I personally believe this idea would bring the tactics and strategy back into this game, and open the doors to far greater build diversity. And yes, this would apply to all damage, even damage done by skills, cores, and robots.


Resource Allocation
Damage in its current state is not accurate! The current way damage works, or from what I have read/seen/heard, is that for each attack, your damage rounds. The engine calculates damage through the combination of stats and weapon power, outputs a decimal, and then rounds that decimal. If the engine outputs the number 36.4 as your damage, for example, it will round to 36. On the other hand, if the engine finds that you have dealt 36.6 damage, it will round to 37. This leads to inaccuracies in damage that would be very easy to fix.

The Problem:
The way HP/DAMAGE works right now leads to inaccuracies in overall gameplay mechanics.

Possible Solutions:
1. Multiply damage and Hitpoints by 10 (this would allow for the addition of 1 more decimal place to all damage dealt, which would mean that damage would be far more accurate [ie. 36.4 damage would be 364 {instead of 36/360}, and 36.6 damage would be 366 {instead of 37/370})

This is the only solution I think would work in this area, and many, many other games have adopted it because it just works better.


So that is it for now! I think these 3 areas of gameplay mechanics are at the very heart of the issues this game is having, and hopefully these solutions can be looked at more closely, and used or adapted in the future to make a better game. I'd like to thank Xendran, as a lot of these ideas originally came from him.

Thanks so much for reading,


Prophet

Edit - Many Typo's Corrected (:x)

Post moved from EpicDuel GD and removed unnecessary content. Check your inbox for more details. ~Therril Oreb

< Message edited by Therril Oreb -- 7/30/2013 4:12:09 >
Epic  Post #: 1
7/29/2013 22:23:24   
Mother1
Member

Wow what a read but a lot of good idea I can say.

Going first section

For number 5 though that one I don't see happening since the staff posted in the design notes some time ago that all passive skills (Class passives not skill cores on weapons and armor) will be turned into active skills. With this happening passives being shut down won't be needed since their won't be any passive class skills (unless you are including Passive cores on items as well)

Also for number 2 I personally think the amount of rage given to the second player should be lower then 30 percent. I say this because in certain cases this could be abused to the point where they would rage faster. Especially if it is a high damage build that goes second versus a tank build or heavily armored player. Maybe a 10 or even 15% bonus would be better to prevent over abuse.

As for number 1 under the going first one I have to ask you. Does this apply for the first turn only (the person who goes first) or for the first attack? I need to know that before I place my thoughts and feedback on that one.

For number 4 how much of a stat boost are we talking about here? It is kind of vague IMO but still as long as it isn't too big I don't see the harm in it.

For 3 and 6 I didn't come up with any thoughts on those.

But overall a mixed bag of idea some good, other needing things tweaked.


Damage section

You weren't kidding about that being a jumbled, but I believe I got the jest of it.

In a nutshell every attack that has multiple hits (such as cheap shot, Berzerker Etc) The damage total would be divided by how many strikes the attack does (60 divided by 3 for example) and each attack normally can do 20 damage but at the same time each can be blocked, crit or deflected (if the attack is deflectable)

So if I were to use cheap shot, It would be possible for me to to get, normal, blocked, crit, or block, block , block, (using these as examples) instead of it being all or nothing. If I am correct about the meaning in a nut shell in all honestly it sounds like a mixed bag that can make luck either better or worse.

In some cases it could make the luck hurt less, but in others it can make it hurt more depending on what happens. But overall still sounds interesting. Question is will the staff actually put it into effect.

Resource section

I have no negatives about this one. I support this one 100 percent.
Epic  Post #: 2
7/29/2013 22:59:04   
Dual Thrusters
Member

quote:

The player who gets the first turn advantage should not gain any rage from his/her attack


Now this is a neat idea.

quote:

each segment will require a unique roll


I suggested this some time ago, but too many people had negative opinions about it.

quote:

Multiply damage and Hitpoints by 10


People like seeing high damage, so why not. And it would help certain skills like deadly aim.
MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 3
7/29/2013 23:56:53   
Scyze
Member

Here's another thread that has been started off nicely!
There are a few issues I have with your suggestions.

Rage
quote:

1. The player who gets the first turn advantage should not gain any rage from his/her attack
I do like this idea a lot but then what are you going to do with these Strength/Support builds? They aren't so common now but they were an issue.
quote:

5. The player who gets the first turn advantage should have their passives sent into cooldown for a duration of 1 or 2 turns.
Not much point in doing this because Passive Skills will become an Active one.
quote:

6. The player who gets the first turn advantage should have all on hit effects(cores) and chance for critical strike disabled.
Confused here.

First turn advantage is a game changer. If you're against a guy with the same build, strategy... basically everything the same; who goes first is a huge decider. But, luck is also an issue. Possibly the same amount (or less/more) than first turn.


Damage
This RNG (Random Number Generator) is based around luck. You cannot control it and I can't so it just makes battles more... erm... unpredictable.

Post edited to remove reply to deleted content. ~Therril Oreb

< Message edited by Therril Oreb -- 7/30/2013 4:13:52 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 4
7/30/2013 0:11:48   
Predator9657
Member

Rage:

quote:

The player who gets the first turn advantage should not gain any rage from his/her attack


Sounds reasonable.

Damage: It would be really good if this got implemented since its not really changing blocks/deflections/crits but just preventing luck from "ruining" matches, especially short fights in which luck has a big impact - blocks/crits make huge differences if the game only lasts for a few turns.

Res All:
As Dual said
quote:

People like seeing high damage


and it doesn't change gameplay; just increases accuracy of the battle mechanics.

Post edited to remove reply to deleted content. ~Therril Oreb

< Message edited by Therril Oreb -- 7/30/2013 4:14:04 >
Epic  Post #: 5
7/30/2013 14:32:16   
xGreen Warriorx
Member

First Turn: I like the sound of #1 the best. However, it should only apply when the player who got first turn is either the same level or a higher level than their opponent. In the case of 2v2, you add the levels of both teams together to determine this. For jugg, it think it would be fine if it applied to everyone.

Especially in 1v1, it wouldn't fair in a lvl 30 vs lvl 35 battle if a lvl 30 who got the first turn didn't get any rage, because rage is their strongest weapon against a higher lvled opponent.

Damage: I think I've seen this suggested before, and I really liked the idea. Not much else to say.

Resource Allocation: I don't know how much of a problem the system rounding these numbers is, so I'm not sure if this is necessary or not, but I don't have anything against it.

AQW Epic  Post #: 6
7/30/2013 14:37:06   
lionblades
Member

I support and like all of your suggestions esp. the damage
However, the last idea in the First Turn kinda limits support mercs as they rely on 1st turn and crits
But all in all these are very good suggestions!
AQW  Post #: 7
7/30/2013 17:28:31   
Nexus...
Member

Thanks guys, I really appreciate the feedback.

For the first turn section I was just throwing out ideas. I think something needs to be done to counter the advantage someone gets when they go first. I'd just like to clarify that I'm not saying all of those should be implemented, but taking one and refining it could really make a difference.

As far as the damage section goes, yes and no mother. You understand the basic idea, but luck could not be any worse than it is now if said system were implemented. Even if you were to crit on all 3 strikes (which would be insanely hard to do), the total damage would still be lower...same goes for blocks and deflects (Math: 60 Critical Damage vs 60/3 Critical Damage - 60*1.5 = 90 Critical Damage [Chance = 10% {example}]; 20*1.5 + 20*1.5 + 20*1.5 = 90 Damage [Chance = 10*.10*.10 -> .1% chance). The likelihood of doing the same amount of damage based on a critical strike as you do now, is like criting 3 turns in a row without a support build (HARD). If these changes were to be made, however, I think luck should actually get a little buff so it procs more often and makes things a little more interesting (:O). I personally love this idea, and did not know it had been suggested before! I really think it would help balance this game, and I don't think its that hard to do.

The last section, rounding, is actually pretty important in my opinion. Ever won a game with under 5 HP? Ever lost a game when your opponent only had 1 hitpoint left? What if I were to tell you that you could have won that game, if epicduel's rounding wasn't so skewed. Damage needs to be accurate, and for this, we need to increase the decimal places. Plus, its EpicDuel, we should do Epic damage =)

quote:

Maybe a 10 or even 15% bonus would be better to prevent over abuse.


Yeah, all numbers are tentative, I just used 30% as an example.

quote:

Confused here.


It would pretty much limit the options for damage output on the first turn (ie. can't apply a special effect with a robot, can't crit, can't apply an active core effect etc.)

Once again, thanks for responding.

Prophet

< Message edited by Nexus... -- 7/30/2013 17:37:54 >
Epic  Post #: 8
7/30/2013 22:56:54   
DanniiBoiixD
Member

Dude, most of these ideas are golden. Great job man, I really hope Mr. Rabble looks at this thread. Although not all of them are perfect, you still have at least 1 in each group that is plain amazing. Reward for thinking of these ideas.
AQW Epic  Post #: 9
7/31/2013 11:01:29   
xyzman
Member

Nice idea! There are just some concerns of mine
quote:

First Turn:

For the penalty i think number 1 or 2 is reasonable. However, there should be a formula based on support difference and level difference, hence making it fair with the lower levels and preventing tank build from having so great advantage.
quote:

Damage

I thought of this before XD, but how about guns with only 1 shot animation? (mechachillid gun as an example). I dont believe it is easy to invent new animation for these already cool 1-shot thing.
quote:

Resource Allocation

For this , do u mean apart from stat, everything else like hp, dam, armor, resistance, defence is multiplied by 10? Currently, at one point people can gain 1 def for 3 dex. If you multiply it by 10 so it would be 10 def for 3 dex? So how much def they can gain with 1 dex? Of course the dev's would just have to alter the way stats affect builds, but i hope that would not adversely affect balance.
AQW Epic  Post #: 10
7/31/2013 15:51:18   
Nexus...
Member

quote:

Dude, most of these ideas are golden. Great job man, I really hope Mr. Rabble looks at this thread. Although not all of them are perfect, you still have at least 1 in each group that is plain amazing. Reward for thinking of these ideas.


Thanks man, I really appreciate the support. A lot of people deserve credit for these ideas, I'm just trying to put them into coherent words. Hopefully some of the stuff from each catagory gets put into the game so I can go back to playing a game I once loved. And...I own an IPhone :o

quote:

For the penalty i think number 1 or 2 is reasonable. However, there should be a formula based on support difference and level difference, hence making it fair with the lower levels and preventing tank build from having so great advantage.


I totally agree with this. I think 1 and 2 are the 'sound' implementations, and a formula would absolutely be needed based on level and support.

quote:

I thought of this before XD, but how about guns with only 1 shot animation? (mechachillid gun as an example). I dont believe it is easy to invent new animation for these already cool 1-shot thing


Actually this would be really easy to deal with! Guns, or any damage with only 1 shot, could have the animation repeated for each segment, or just the piece of the animation where the sidearm fires repeated for each segment. Either way, I think all the idea needs is a little thinking outside the box, and it can be accomplished without too big of a headache (although it might take some time).

quote:

For this , do u mean apart from stat, everything else like hp, dam, armor, resistance, defense is multiplied by 10? Currently, at one point people can gain 1 def for 3 dex. If you multiply it by 10 so it would be 10 def for 3 dex? So how much def they can gain with 1 dex? Of course the dev's would just have to alter the way stats affect builds, but i hope that would not adversely affect balance.


This is even a little hard for me to grasp, and there are a couple ways of going about it. Either way, good question. The first way to go about it, is to leave everything how it is aside the damage/hp. A formula would calculate the damage done based on the resistance/defense and stats you currently (say 36 damage), and then multiply that number by 10 (360) to do that amount of damage. Your HP pool would be much larger, but it would still deal close to the same % of damage to your HP pool, it would just be more accurate. Here is an example. You have 1000 HP (equivalent to a current HP of 100). The formula would calculate damage based on your stats and resistances (which remain unchanged from how they scale now), and then multiply that damage by 10 for a more accurate number, and then apply that damage to your HP pool. All in all, it wouldn't mess with defense and resistances, it wouldn't mess with stats, it would just make the damage you/your opponent do more accurate. The only thing that would be changing is the number you see for your HP/Damage. The alternative to this is far more complicated, and would basically require all stats to be scaled...It would remove the need for the multiplication of damage as the last calculation, but it would be much harder to implement, and I don't even know if it would work properly.

I know thats long and confusing, but hopefully it helps.

Prophet
Epic  Post #: 11
7/31/2013 16:05:53   
Drangonslayer
Member

I dont know if you guys have noticed but getting crit 2 times in a row or something is really annoying and still getting rage. I would make a suggestion that if you crit 2 or more times in a row rage is delayed for one turn because no one can fend off 2 rages and a rage right after of heavy damage.
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 12
7/31/2013 16:07:13   
Nexus...
Member

Getting crit 2 times in a row would do less damage than getting crit once now.
Epic  Post #: 13
7/31/2013 16:21:00   
Drangonslayer
Member

Bleh i messed up my last post but im sure you knew what i was saying right? Earlier a couple times ive got crit twice and then the person had the rage bar full and managed to deal over 100 damage without a debuff which was insane. And how is getting 2 crits doing less than 1 crit?
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 14
7/31/2013 16:29:26   
Mother1
Member

@ drangonslayer

He is talking about under the new damage system where every strike from a skill or move is it's own individual attack that takes from the total of damage you would normally get. I will explain.

Say if I were to use cheap shot and get 30 damage normally. With the new system each attack would have it's chance to be blocked, crit or do normal damage. So if 2 of those attacks would crit it would only be a small boost were as if you used 2 different attacks (skill wise) under the normal system a crit it would be more painful.
Epic  Post #: 15
7/31/2013 16:50:16   
Nexus...
Member

Mother1 explained it way better than I did. Hopefully it makes sense now. Segmented damage is a % of total damage. Say there are 3 segments, you would need to crit in all 3 segments in order to do the damage you do now with a crit, and the chance of critting 3 segments in a row is like critting 3 turns in a row (very unlikely).

Prophet
Epic  Post #: 16
7/31/2013 17:03:40   
Shajun Ki
Member

Choice 1 and 2 in the first turn section are the best suggestions in that list imo.

I'm not sure i understand how the damage idea will work virtually but other than that I support it. It's something fresh and new, exactly what the game needs imo.

Your resource allocation idea sounds awesome. I was actually thinking about this the other idea, how epic it would be to deliver several hundred hit points to your opponent. I support this 100%.
Post #: 17
7/31/2013 17:05:12   
Ranloth
Banned


So power depreciates if it occurs more than once? Can't say I'm not in favour of such since it could work quite well and make things a bit more interesting - not mentioning less luck based. Would the same be done to deflections and blocks? So instead of reducing damage by 50%/85%, it would reduce it by, for example, 45%/80% if it occured twice in the row.

I'm all for Resource Allocation section since we've had Xendran talk about it before and it was a great solution, still is in fact. Nothing more is needed to explain why - you've covered it yourself.

First Turn advantage.. That one is a tough one to balance out in turn-based PvP game but it can be minimised. In regards to your proposed solutions:
#1 seems very good and doesn't change the gameplay too much nor requires too many changes to be made. It also reduces players ranting over others being "lucky" and winning the battle which is always good. :P

Unfortunatelly, I won't agree with others. The reason for such is either being too tedious to code or just not being necessary. #2 can potentially work but since Rage works off Support, I'm a bit worried about those who can take advantage of Rage more than others (unless Rage was made independent of any stat - read more here). #3 and #4 could potentially end up being troublesome for some players/builds, basically similar to what I've said for #2. #5 can be crossed out since passives will be turning into active skills. #6 just disables luck and makes the battle more in favour of the player who doesn't get first-turn advantage.
Tl;dr: I'm in favour of #1 and #2 (if altered) which could reduce the First Turn impact greatly. It may not be 100% fix but it would be a big step towards it and balance it out.
AQ Epic  Post #: 18
7/31/2013 17:09:24   
GearzHeadz
Member

You realize if the first player doesn't get first rage points it wont make it anymore balanced at all. All it will do is give the second player get more rage points first. Someone has to be the first one to get them.
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 19
7/31/2013 17:12:13   
Dual Thrusters
Member

^

To compensate for that, the starting player gets the drop on the opponent. Rage isn't everything.
MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 20
7/31/2013 17:13:10   
Nexus...
Member

quote:

So power depreciates if it occurs more than once?


No, not exactly. Its just that each attack is split into segments, and each segment has its own roll...so dealing a crit on 30% of your total damage (that turn) is nowhere near as much as dealing a crit on 100% if your damage (as it is now), and the chance of dealing a crit 2 or 3 times in one attack is very unlikely. And yes it would apply to blocks and deflects as well.

quote:

You realize if the first player doesn't get first rage points it wont make it anymore balanced at all. All it will do is give the second player get more rage points first. Someone has to be the first one to get them.


But the player who goes first gets the first attack (or the first move), and gets to make the first tactical decision...that in itself is an advantage. Letting the other player gain rage first would soften the advantage the player with the first turn gets.


Prophet
Epic  Post #: 21
7/31/2013 17:57:31   
Drangonslayer
Member

If the player starts they can use a debuff and they enemy can either have a harder time or use a shield. Then the other person can attack again and they already have a head start. Going first you can emp like i used to do and take away 48 energy and literally kill your opponent.
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 22
7/31/2013 18:59:30   
Shajun Ki
Member

^I don't understand what you're trying to argue with here...
Post #: 23
7/31/2013 19:54:24   
Dual Thrusters
Member

@Shajun Ki

He was talking to GearzHeadz
MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 24
7/31/2013 21:28:31   
Shajun Ki
Member

^Oh, I thought he was trying to argue with nexus's last post. My fault.
Post #: 25
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