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10/30/2013 18:46:24   
danirasab
Banned


 Please do not harsh to anyone or be violent to any other player. Please stay ontopic.

I think the developers are listening too much too the community which IMO is destroying the game somehow (Please do not take offense to this).

I remember watching a documentary. Some of you may know this from the UK and that show is called "The apprentice".
One of the episodes is where two teams had to create a type workshop for the kids.
One team listened to there target market audience too much that they loss the task because they didn't
make more profit then the second team where as the other team did listen to the target audience but changed it slightly different to what the target audience wanted and they absolutely loved it and won with flying colors.

Now this is something similar to ED. There are some people in the forum (not naming) that say not supported or this is OP and that is not OP with good evidence of backing up there answers but to an extent to me; it is like we ourselves are destroying the game.

I think ED has to think ideas of themselves and create things that can be OP or that people will not support/support and I want them to JUST GO FOR IT and I want them to try to use there own imagination instead of having to listen to the players feedback if this should be created or if this is OP or if this will cause lag.

Well one thing I would say is...
Life is too short make the most of it! ~Syndicate


Do you guys think that ED is listening to us or the players feedback too much? Why or Why not?
Epic  Post #: 1
10/30/2013 21:36:01   
ED Divine Darkness
Member

spot on lad, spot on.
AQ AQW Epic  Post #: 2
10/30/2013 22:49:00   
TheRandomGuyYouSee
Member

Nope, OP. That's completely OP.
Post #: 3
10/30/2013 23:11:41   
nico0las
Member

I agree with you here. The devs are listening way too much.
MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 4
10/31/2013 0:29:06   
ReinVI
Member

so... an overly explained version of the same message I posted about ignoring feedback and doing what they feel is the right course of action? >.>

meh either way it's explained it equates to the same conclusion... quit listening to the community for every little detail.

TL;DR~ I agree

< Message edited by ReinVI -- 10/31/2013 0:30:01 >
Epic  Post #: 5
10/31/2013 0:36:23   
ValkyrieKnight
Member

I haven't made many suggestions that impacted the game (I challenge anyone to find a topic made by me) I merely commented on what people thought that was similar to what I thought. There are going to be times where the Devs (imo) really drop the ball, of course, I'm talking about the Azreal Aux but even then EVENTUALLY I found a way around it (now how to beat poison bot?)

They're going to be things I would like change but I won't voice them since I acknowledge my biases (wanting hp to be returned to 2pts per 1 stat. That being said, the TC has a point.
AQW Epic  Post #: 6
10/31/2013 1:09:17   
Chosen 0ne
Banned


 No. This is absolutely wrong. This is not where you want this game to go. They don't listen to the people that count! There's a lot of people here that are biased towards specific things! They just need to listen to the RIGHT people!


In fact, there's a very small amount of us representing the ENTIRE community. And most of us have very selfish opinions, myself included at times.

It's our jobs as forumnites to inform the Devs about the general opinions the community has on things and not just us. We need to start thinking about different sides and ways to approach things that need to be addressed.

What we DONT want is the Devs to stop listening to us. And to ask them to is a ridicules notion.

Start listening to the ones that want positive change for everyone and not a certain group if players.

-Chosen
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 7
10/31/2013 1:29:10   
Mother1
Member

@ chosen

In all honestly this is their game and they should be making the decisions themselves without outside influences. Seriously look at how balance is because of subjective balance. Almost everyone is using the same copy paste builds with very few using different builds.

Why? Because of players who couldn't be a certain build and came here crying for a nerf when the build was either their natural counter, or just an overused build. It is because of those biased players that majority of the builds we had got nerfed. When I first started the game I saw plenty of different builds in the game. However, due to complainers and nerf after nerf to make those players happy we are here.

What the staff needs to do is use a little outside input as possible especially with balance since they have a balance checker. This way players who can't beat certain build will have to find a counter to that build like it is suppose to be not have the staff nerf everything they can't beat cause all that does is put another balanced build on the chopping block since what keeps it in check got weakened.
Epic  Post #: 8
10/31/2013 4:04:36   
King FrostLich
Member

Yes it is right to follow player suggestions but it is wrong to completely follow what every step it should say. The reason of that could be biased balance issues which we are already in but that doesn't mean everything is wrong. It's just that devs can't even create a proper balance or make the correct decision when it comes to buffing and several times, leads to nerfing. Let's take an example of Tech Mage before the Assimilation buff.(even though it was nerfed) Back then, hp and mana were low with the addition of 1 stat point = 1 point of hp/mana at the start of Omega and made TM a bit of underpowered and people were somewhat complaining about the class which I agreed that time because of their lack of using energy. After other updates which led to the nerf of technology to resistance AND THE BUFF of energy(that now scales the same as dexterity to defense instead of being a naturally higher stat) it was already in a good state but what did they do next? Of course buff assimilation which improved strength and added more amount of points and unavoidable mana drain. DEspite the nerf to resistance, a caster mage naturally has an insane amount of resistance and even nerfing the resistance scaling doesn't mean it's gonna be easier to beat them since EVERY class also has a nerf to investing amounts to technology.


Common Sense Solution:

Leave assimilation as is and the fact that TM's already have reroute gives them a near unlimited energy pool compared to Tactical Mercs.


quote:

In all honestly this is their game and they should be making the decisions themselves without outside influences. Seriously look at how balance is because of subjective balance. Almost everyone is using the same copy paste builds with very few using different builds.


It is alright to listen to players but that doesn't mean they should be confident in MAKING or IMPLEMENTING the decision because they feel it is right for the game without proper player notice. They should imagine if they were to create the update themselves, they should also imagine they were the players themselves. This should've been done back in Beta and Gamma for the best result to prevent the old-time players from leaving the game but since it hasn't even been like this since Omega, this led to several people leaving including alot of old time players.

< Message edited by King FrostLich -- 10/31/2013 4:06:21 >
Epic  Post #: 9
10/31/2013 7:21:56   
Scyze
Member

So now, because the Developers are listening to us, you guys don't like it... Well, in the past, some people complained about them not listening to us.
If you do not know what Artix Entertainment is about, it's about letting players suggest ideas. You suggest ideas, the Developers like it, they add it to the game. If you don't like the idea of that, go talk about this in the Artix Entertainment General Discussion.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 10
10/31/2013 7:27:49   
Ranloth
Banned


 No, Scyze. Read carefully. Listening too much is the problem, or at least when it comes to balance. Subjectivity and balance should never go in pair, because it causes more harm than good.

And they are aware of it, hence why some changes weren't even put forward despite players complaining - because they were biased. But what's in the past is in the past, so we cannot change what's happened before but we can change what will happen.
AQ Epic  Post #: 11
10/31/2013 10:34:39   
zion
Member

Don't see any issues here... when was the last balance update?

_____________________________
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 12
10/31/2013 11:27:08   
Lycus
Legendary AdventureGuide!


 This is certainly an interesting topic, that focuses on the flip side of the usual complaint that we do not listen enough. It is certainly true that as Game developers and as a game team, it is really hard to strike the perfect balance of listening to player suggestions and using your own initiative, possibly taking the game in a direction many players are not so keen on. I think a lot of people misunderstand the idea of 'listening to the community', since I have seen quite a number of posters comment 'We never get listened to and no player suggestions get put in game, it is pointless suggesting things' - what they mean by this really is 'I never get listened to and I do not like it that my suggestions are not put in-game.'.

The issues has been raised of 'listening to right people' and to an extent that is certainly true, some people understand the game better than others; some understand the development process, the gaming industry, maybe even understanding the maths, balance and the rest of the behind the scenes workings to a higher ability than others; due to this, surely these are the people that should be listened to? However I personally feel that once again, this is very subjective, how do you define the 'right people to listen to', I am pretty sure that everyone who posts a suggestion feels they are the right person to listen to and that is why they are posting that suggestion. There are always going to be some people thinking a certain one person is one of these 'right people' to listen to, hence why they support their suggestions, they may even support a lot of suggestions from this one person, however at the same time there are going to be people against the suggestions they suggest and who do not feel they are the 'right people to listen to'. I think the best way to view things is that everyone who posts a suggestion has spent their time to think and post an idea that they feel is right for the game and either a good thing to implement or a good direction to take the game in. Each of these suggestions are then read and will be considered by members of the EpicDuel team and implemented if and when it is felt it is a correct thing to take forward into the game. It does not exactly matter if an idea is extremely supported or not supported, because unless valid reasons are given by people (in which case they would be taken under consideration), just saying 'supported' or 'unsupported' does not mean that it is the right thing for the game exactly, since there is no reason to support it, it may simply mean that it is okay for you personally.

So that being said, I personally do not feel it is an issue of picking ideas from 'the right people' since I feel everyone in this community is capable of being one of this group. People may not always present great ideas, but at that point, that is when others help them by giving feedback and we view it and decide based on its values, the next time they may present an excellent idea because they have taken that feedback on board or because they genuinely have just hit something great to suggest.

Then you are left with striking the perfect balance of listening to the players and using game team/development team intuition to bring in our own ideas etc. and that is not an easy task in itself. I think that all in all, a perfect balance is very hard to meet, especially since there is no exact perfect balance to target. Maybe as a team we could put in our own thoughts more, since it is an Artix Entertainments game and therefore, and technically as a team, the developers in particular, are the 'experts'; surely the ideas should come from them. However the idea of having a game like this is that the players get a say and that the suggestions they want to be implemented actually have a chance to make it in-game. The players are the people playing it and therefore they know what they want. If you look at it that way you go into a whole other debate of whether 'the customer is always right' or whether, as Steve Jobs stated 'the consumer does not know what they want until it is put in front of them' - in other words, no one sat at home saying 'I want a device called an iPod that has apps that I can use as tools or play as games, it lets me surf the internet, play music and it looks exactly like blah blah blah...' - you get the idea, people only realised they wanted and could use a device like this when it was actually put out there by the experts. Then the question is what ethos should ED follow, or should it strike something in the middle?

Now all the above can be said and you are likely bored of what I am saying by this point as I am rambling on, sorry! But at the end of the day, the idea of AE's games for the most part, including ED, is that we do a mixture of both, we listen to the community and implement what we can and what we feel is appropriate, while also taking the games in the direction felt best with the 'expert knowledge' that is held within the company. Since reaching the balance is not a physical thing and mostly has to be tallied mentally, it is subjective and it is something there will likely almost always be people on both sides of the wall saying that the grass is greener on the other side. Even now, this topic says we listen to much, but only the other day I read a load of comments saying we do not listen at all. Finding the balance is hard and even if we do find it, players may not feel we have and we wouldn't exactly know that we have, since it is down to opinion and opinion is personal and therefore varies from one person to another. Technically this topic is another suggestion and some people feel it is right and other feel it is not. In a world where opinions are dominant, facts and exact targets are sometimes hard to find, therefore though this topic is useful in giving us an opinion of a player and other players who are also giving feedback, it is a very hard one to deal with and therefore, this is the best answer I can give that is thorough over all bases. The only other thing I can say is that this will certainly be considered and reviewed, however as stated, it is a hard one to come to an answer on!

Thank you for all of your inputs and I hope my massive answer is not too confusing and actually makes sense, while also helping to answer and shed light on this topic and my take on it!
AQ AQW Epic  Post #: 13
10/31/2013 11:43:18   
Khalix
Member

Ten forumers do not represent a hundred.

This is made especially worse in the balance/suggestions forums where there's a ludicrous usage of hyperbole's that describe something as "Terribly OP" or assume something they have absolutely no data on "If this keeps up, x will y".

This creates plenty of unnecessary fuss and misleads other forumers' thoughts.

See Agenda Setting Theory (Albeit a small non-publicated version of it)

No one's innocent of exaggerating a "Balance Fix", not even me.
Epic  Post #: 14
10/31/2013 11:56:20   
King FrostLich
Member

quote:

The issues has been raised of 'listening to right people' and to an extent that is certainly true, some people understand the game better than others; some understand the development process, the gaming industry, maybe even understanding the maths, balance and the rest of the behind the scenes workings to a higher ability than others; due to this, surely these are the people that should be listened to? However I personally feel that once again, this is very subjective, how do you define the 'right people to listen to', I am pretty sure that everyone who posts a suggestion feels they are the right person to listen to and that is why they are posting that suggestion.



Unfortunately, most of the time this is the better option to listen to instead of a community that has little to no knowledge of the game. Look at how LoL and Dota 2 do, LoL listened at first to their professional players before the entire community to improve their gaming stability and community attitude to make it not only competitive but also a more friendly game then before. Dota 2, although having its own way with dealing the "bad and the good", share contributions to add fun yet permanent and significant features that make them both unique from one another. What if they followed the lesser and little to no knowledge players? Of course they dealt with that by listening to the ones who have better knowledge in the game than the new and "I want this suggestion to improve the game because it looks cool" people and to improve or should I say punish the "bad people" in LoL, they established the Tribunal which is a player-based reporting system to "mod" and make sure no "bad stuff" happens. When something bad of course happens, the "mod" reports it to the LoL moderators who will deal and ultimately decide the fate of the bad person or even deal with the "mod" if they're just trolling around.


As for the part on being "subjective" on how to define the right people, this is pretty much common sense by simply determining how this person acts in the game, what contributions(if none, then analyze player interaction with others and player concern/stance about the game itself) he/she has made, most importantly if person wishes to contribute, will it be game-breaking unless you can make slight changes WITH a few tweaks on other classes to ENSURE a proper balance. I've watched how buffs and nerfs go by every balance update and usually it 90% of the time, favors at least 2-3 classes rather than all 6.
quote:


Finding the balance is hard and even if we do find it, players may not feel we have and we wouldn't exactly know that we have, since it is down to opinion and opinion is personal and therefore varies from one person to another.



There will ALWAYS be players not appreciating certain updates. However, as long as it doesn't have a game-breaking effect than other updates, in the long run there is a chance people will soon encourage they're wrong and live up to the update. I admit that some updates were bad but there were some that were good too that although they significantly helped one class gain at least a small upper hand, it wouldn't come to a point it was overpowered. The only reason why the game is in decline right now is because updates here are NOT and I repeat NOT properly balanced and has been this way since Gamma with the introduction of Agility. When agility was removed, it also created another problem with hp and mana increasing every 1 point instead of 2 for every 1 stat point. Devs decided to buff it but caused for what exactly? Obviously those annoying casters and strength mercs being able to have a heck lot of mana to use double strike and berzerker. Instead of balancing both classes in one balance update, you guys decided to nerf the strength merc on one update FIRST and afterwards buffed caster mages when they were STILL at an overpowered rate by even buffing assimilation which contributed to an even BAD update. See the "PROPER balance"? It was a clear and obvious issue at that time and although casters were toned down(today since plasma bolt nerf) at the very least, they are still having too much advantage with the unblockable energy drain which is still the issue today. Devs are suppose to foresee what comes next for every buff or nerf a class is given which I see that they don't do. A player's role is to simply have fun and IF they find a way to exploit something that was NOT caused by him/her, it is up to devs to deal with the issue with the right knowledge to do so that will not form more damage to the balance state. A simple explanation of why the balance update happens will not simply resolve the issue should it even work to balance classes but if it does, then that's great. As a player for almost 4 years, balance is not equally distributed to every class and like I said, most of the time it favors at least 2-3 classes and not the whole 6.

< Message edited by King FrostLich -- 10/31/2013 12:18:12 >
Epic  Post #: 15
10/31/2013 12:20:26   
danirasab
Banned
quote:

It does not exactly matter if an idea is extremely supported or not supported, because unless valid reasons are given by people (in which case they would be taken under consideration), just saying 'supported' or 'unsupported' does not mean that it is the right thing for the game exactly, since there is no reason to support it, it may simply mean that it is okay for you personally.


That is definitely true, I remember this one guy who made a suggestion about the static smash which a lot of people were disagreeing on the idea but it was eventually made. Now mercenaries have the chance to win some battles instead of losing a lot of battles and not that many people are complaining about it even though it got alot of disagreements to it when it was first suggested.

This is what I mean; you take consideration into the idea but changing it slightly differently to what we (the community) wanted. That person who suggested the static smash did have alot of % to gain energy back and some damage to it also which is why alot of people didn't support the idea but the devs reduced increased the % gradually and slightly changed it to what the person (who suggested the idea) wanted.

< Message edited by danirasab -- 10/31/2013 12:58:27 >
Epic  Post #: 16
10/31/2013 12:33:00   
King FrostLich
Member

quote:

That person who suggested the static smash did have alot of % to gain energy back and some damage to it also which is why alot of people didn't support the idea but the devs reduced that % and slightly changed it to what the person (who suggested the idea) wanted.


That's strange. Static smash was never nerfed yet since its release.
Epic  Post #: 17
10/31/2013 12:39:49   
Khalix
Member

In my opinion, whenever a new release comes out, there should be an opinion-taking test.

quote:

Example:

Say S armor is released.

After playing with/against users of that armor for x amount of battles, a questionnaire pops up, and then takes the opinion of said player.

Again, after playing x + y amount of battles, another questionnaire pops up.

Lastly, after playing x + y +z amount of battles, the last questionnaire (Which will be the only result recorded and compiled) will appear.

Note: To prevent dupe accounts from fixing the results:
1. Only one final questionnaire will be available per user-name (Not character)
2. Player must be at least level 25 and has their email verified (Inactivity restrictions unnecessary because they need to fight with/against S armor for x amount of times)
3. Compiled results only accessible after finishing the final questionnaire.


This prevents forumers from being interpreted as full representatives of the player base, thus mitigating the need for "Balance/Suggestion" Threads aside from discussing the compiled data (Which can be accessed by all)

This mitigates the subjectivity of suggestions while providing HARD DATA that can be analyzed.

On an extra note...

So many TL;DR's.
I wish you guys organized your thoughts concisely.
Epic  Post #: 18
10/31/2013 12:44:25   
danirasab
Banned
quote:

That's strange. Static smash was never nerfed yet since its release.


No, this was before static smash was even released. Before static smash was atom smash from the mercenary.

Edit:
Here was the suggested idea before it was implemented: http://forums2.battleon.com/f/tm.asp?m=21256181

< Message edited by danirasab -- 10/31/2013 12:55:34 >
Epic  Post #: 19
10/31/2013 13:02:52   
King FrostLich
Member

^I know that atom smash used to be a merc skill. But the way you posted the % reduced meant that static smash was nerfed which looks like a sentence error but I do get your point now.
Epic  Post #: 20
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