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What do you players think of this quote on balance

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10/23/2014 20:54:21   
Cyber Dream
Member

"Balance is not about everyone being equal, but rather that not everybody is doing the exact same thing. If everyone is doing the same exact thing, something is not balanced. Everybody is trying to pursue the same unbalanced thing."

Moved from ED GD to ED Balance. ~Battle Elf


< Message edited by Battle Elf -- 10/24/2014 7:02:57 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 1
10/23/2014 21:48:02   
Mother1
Member

I don't believe that "everything being the same = the game being balanced."

Look at the game right now. Every change I have seen so far has been making the classes more similar than before and even with these changes the classes aren't balanced. However at the same time more variety is getting stripped from the game change by change due to certain builds that used to work no longer doing so.
Epic  Post #: 2
10/23/2014 23:00:09   
  Exploding Penguin
Moderator


 Everything could logically be fair and equal, but one thing is just way more fun than the others.

It would be balanced but everyone would be doing the same thing.
Epic  Post #: 3
10/24/2014 2:30:19   
RageSoul
Member

Pretty sure the "everything is equal / doing the same = balanced" philosophy doesn't work because of lack of design aims , AKA "defining strengths and weaknesses" . For example , if i made a car was made for off-roads , why would something not made for off-roads be the same function-wise? And worse of all , why does said car do a better job than the latter?

So for something to be considered equal , they shouldn't be doing the same things so no competition number-power wise would exist due to different designs ( as in so different that it isn't enough to be satisfied / equate them due to them not competing for the same niche ).

< Message edited by RageSoul -- 10/24/2014 2:34:38 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 4
10/24/2014 4:53:42   
Remorse
Member

I agree with the statement,


In a game like this, variety should be a requirement to win often.


The best way to win shouldn't necessarily be the most popular, it would technically be the method to beat the most popular method since statistically if the same popular strategy versed itself luck becomes the factor more then anything, so, unless balance is broken (which it is) unpopular strategies should technically be better at winning, for as long as it remains unpopular.... Kinda confusing.


The major problem with this game and the reason I consider it highly un-balanced.


Is popular methods are too hard to counter.


Counters are not strong nor viable enough to exist and viable variety is low as a result of this.



Here is a video explaining the concept: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e31OSVZF77w


Note the underlying points if this video in which epic duel strongly faily to comply with and as a result proof of it's poor balance and boring game-play.


1: The player's class, can't be great at everything, while this is still slightly true, recent decisions from the devs have made this factor more and more false.
They are giving each class a means to be able to do everything with the decision to give every class a means for energy manipulation which has had MAJOR bad impact on the game.


2: You need to have a game with clarity on what beats what, this is still slightly apparent in ED but again they are moving away from this with anti-counter items etc.


3: You need to have a wide enough pool of options so you can find an answer to whatever skill is played. This is where ED falls in a hole, the lack of counter-play is so strong that popular strategies can not simply be countered effectively enough for the game to change meta without nerfs occurring.
Without it having to be one specific pre determined answer, ED is also moving away form this as well, with all the energy manipulation skills that are pretty much a necessity to use when the opponent uses one themselves, for example they drain, I must drain...






The devs have been moving in the COMPLETELY wrong direction with the passive removal change and the removal of class identity and the introduction of energy manipulation skills for each class.

< Message edited by Remorse -- 10/24/2014 5:12:26 >
Epic  Post #: 5
10/24/2014 5:11:25   
Exodasbr
Member

I've been lingering on the forums as a guest for a while, and I think most people just want to win so just copy the most overpowered build out there so new ones don't arise.

IMO they should have an option to make your build hidden, this would help prevent copying and make you have to think more in battles.


< Message edited by Exodasbr -- 10/24/2014 5:12:10 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 6
10/24/2014 5:14:07   
Remorse
Member

^ That is not a solution at all,


That is sweeping the issue under a rug...



They need to fix the whole mechanics so that dominating builds are not an issue,

Yes their will always be a build that will be more popular, but it's only and issue when options to counter it are low and un-viable.



Add counter-play and variety and you fix the game.




The problem is popular builds can win despite people trying to counter it, Counters are too weak and ineffective and variety is shockingly small as a result.

Imagine if counters worked properly, it would mean the "popular build" would be constantly changing and the game would be much more enjoyable.

Also this is the reason for high impact luck, when everything is too similar then luck becomes a more dominate factor.






Here is a must watch video on the concept of counter play,

And the game would do extremely well if they took some tips out of this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRBcjsOt0_g





The reason why i prefer the game when it was in beta (excluding things like varium advanatge etc.) was because the number of viable options were higher.


Yes now in omega they have created all these new things such as cores etc..

But many of these new things, especially the new energy manipulation skills, actually reduce the number of counter-play options and therefore reduce enjoyment and the skill required for strategy.



It seem s weird because the amount of things you can do is actually much more now in omega, but that does not mean viable options has increased...

< Message edited by Remorse -- 10/24/2014 5:28:29 >
Epic  Post #: 7
10/24/2014 5:28:26   
Exodasbr
Member

While I agree, However I believe not being able to see your opponents build would be part of the solution.

I personally believe that epic duel has never had true balance, just that in the past when weapons had stats certain builds were restricted to having the right equipment, promos, enhancements and the fact that different builds worked at different levels so people were a bit more experimental.
AQW Epic  Post #: 8
10/24/2014 5:32:44   
Remorse
Member

^ I disagree,

I think their is fun strategy in being able to see your opponents build and then trying to work out how to best play against it.

Although this is not often the case in the game now because counter-play is more or less irrelevant, you simply pick a dominate build and rinse repeat the same strategy regardless of what you verse...


I believe if we fix the variety issue and the lack of counter-play issue then being able to see you opponent build would be a positive thing that adds depth and strategy to the game.


Then again perhaps the developers don't want to go in this direction for the game, in which case perhaps making builds hidden would be the way to go, and I can go ahead and quit the game because it would no longer fit my tastes.

< Message edited by Remorse -- 10/24/2014 5:33:34 >
Epic  Post #: 9
10/24/2014 5:43:01   
Exodasbr
Member

I tend to use more fun builds (which is probably actually shown by losses if could still see them), the way I see it this game is like a TCG e.g. Magic, Yu-gi-oh (although I don't have time for them anymore).

In these games like in epic duel there are decks/builds which are also overpowered and only care about killing the opponent as quick as possible (if u've ever heard of a 1 turn kill which makes matchs boring).

Now, It is possible however to stand a decent chance with more fun decks but it requires planning and you relying on certain strategies.

Now if my opponent could see my cards and my deck like in epic duel they now know the card and strategies I will use, so wipe them out and I'm done.

In the same way If I was a str merc who was also armed with atomic smash all I need to do is see that my e.g. tech mage opponent has a Maximum overload which he is probably going to use on rage so get rid of that and he's done.

However if I couldn't see his build I would start to think e.g. about how much damage his gun may do and do more than just smash strike.

< Message edited by Exodasbr -- 10/24/2014 5:56:27 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 10
10/24/2014 5:56:52   
Remorse
Member

^

While I agree their are fun elements in those games,
I myself play hearthstone which is a similar card game and these rush decks are also apparent in them.




I also think that being able to see the strategies can work also,
I have seen it work in older ED and I believe that if they merely added more counter-play and variety it can occur again.


Maybe ED should keep this viable strategy style game-play so long as they can make it work properly.


The benefits being that their can be fun strategy in tricking the opponent, such as not doing what they would expect and baiting them to do certain things which are much harder to apply to a game with hidden builds.


ED could perhaps be fun in both routes,

But one thing is clear, they need to fix broken game-play they have at the moment.

And I think this would be a requirement before they make any decisions on how to move the direction of the game.

Epic  Post #: 11
10/25/2014 14:18:06   
Xendran
Member

ED Devs have been taking balance the wrong way ever since they started this game.
The thing that would benefit this game the most would be the addition of new skills and new classes.
If you had enough variety in this game you could get away with not remaking the entire stat and damage system.

Right now, it's like a game of rock paper scissors where rock also beats paper. If there were 5x as many options, this wouldn't be as much of an issue. Increased build variety is the most important part of making the players feel like the game is balanced. Once you have the game being more enjoyable to play and make builds in again, you can then start tweaking the balance more.

Lack of skills is by far the largest reason battles feel so dull and all the same. When you play like me, you predict what the other person is going to do before they do it. The reason this is even possible is because there are so few skill choices that there is usually only one right decision to be made on a turn.

< Message edited by Xendran -- 10/25/2014 14:19:54 >
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 12
10/26/2014 9:23:25   
ValkyrieKnight
Member

I just feel that everytime something new is added nowadays into the game its added with no sense as to "How can this be countered" every new addition to the game via weapon skill or bot appears to have no drawback, no risk reward. Such case is the new bot, really? It completely destroys your primary, sidearms and their skills for 3 turns. There is no counter for this other than to wait it out or waste energy on attacks you don't want to use at that moment. This was with the bot that destroys your armor, and the weapon skill that reduced healing ability. There are never counters for anything, everything works perfectly everytime its used and there is always little your opponent can do once its used.
AQW Epic  Post #: 13
10/26/2014 9:27:17   
Mother1
Member

@ Valkrieknight

The newest robot only weakens your primary for 3 turns not your sidearm.
Epic  Post #: 14
10/26/2014 10:22:25   
ValkyrieKnight
Member

Oh, must've been me then. : / It really does suck that AE finally put an end to my strength builds which I've been using High hp high Str since the beginning. This game is like a revolving door. No matter how hard one tries the changes will eventually force you out of your playing style/class in order to keep up with everyone. I've been Merc when they were garbage whole way through, been tech mage during whole delta, blood mage. Now, I literally can't use my preferred build with anyone except my mercenary *sigh*
AQW Epic  Post #: 15
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