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Underdog Mode Really?

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5/18/2015 18:21:46   
.Lord Ginger.
Member

Ok, so first of all the low ranks used to not get EXP and the low levels did if they beat the level above them. Also, the low level also received a higher chance to go first. However now, the opposing rank(99% below mine because I'm 107) Get a go first, more stat points, and an Insane experience. Just saying though, it used to be a go first and EXP if won. However now it's also plus stat points. Correct me, but Underdog gives opponent more chance to crit/deflect/and block. I suggest Either Taking away the + and keeping the INSANE EXP, or taking away the EXP because come on....Underdog mode basically makes me lose if anyone goes first and has my same build because the +'s make them deflect and crit. It's pretty ridiculous. I know you guys might think I'm complaining and crap, but honestly if this Underdog basically evens out the playing field, what's the point of levels? More places to put stats in the tree? Level 36 didn't need those at all. Now we just have this underdog stuff which is totally not even looked at. All the players who spent time ranking up in Omega now get screwed over by Underdog mode to people who have played the game in a matter of weeks. I know you guys said that this isn't changing, but if jug and 2v2 are fixed, the high rankers who focus on 1v1 will either be Jugging or 2v2ing, or buying +6
s to hopefully not get screwed over by the go first, extra stat points, and insane amounts of experience.. Most of the high ranks I talk to don't even PVP unless they bot or use the +6
s. Y'all need to look into this game because it's decreasing in popularity and its not because people get older.


< Message edited by .Lord Ginger. -- 5/22/2015 8:43:33 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 1
5/21/2015 22:41:15   
Stonehawk
Member

1- older players weaker than new players & newer players lvling up faster
2- older players deciding to give up
3- newer players get higher rank, becoming older players and fighting new players.
4- back to 1.

We're being recycled, I guess.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 2
5/22/2015 8:44:20   
.Lord Ginger.
Member

Yea man, I don't get it. :/
AQW Epic  Post #: 3
5/22/2015 8:51:49   
The berserker killer
Member

 

 Stonehawk that was absolutely perfect. I'd give up all my ranks to abuse underdog mode any day.

@Ginger- I couldn't have said it any better. I told ranloth before that they are seriously underestimating the advantage you get with direct stat increases. I mean not only do lower levels get a +% chance to go first for each level they are under their opponent but now they're getting a higher chance to deflect, block, crit, connect strike, even not be stunned. This isn't FAIR.

If they cant remove underdog mode then either :

1) remove the extra xp/creds gained

2) let the opponent gain the same amount of XP/creds gained if he wins

3) change legendary mode so that it also affects our Strength, Dexterity, Tech and Support

Or

4) change underdog mode to directly affect Primary Damage, Gun damage, Defense and Resistance instead of Stats. Now THAT is a fair suggestion.

< Message edited by The berserker killer -- 5/22/2015 8:59:52 >
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 4
5/22/2015 15:43:57   
Camoflague MerC
Member

Desperate act for dying game.

Epic  Post #: 5
5/22/2015 16:52:47   
shadow.bane
Member

underdog got even more op .. faced a rank 29 am 31 he got underdog level 1 so + 1 to all attributes and am only 2 ranks higher . that aint fair .
AQW Epic  Post #: 6
5/23/2015 14:42:13   
Altador987
Member

i've had no real problem with underdog with any of my accs (24 mage, 28 merc, 33 bh, 38 cy hunter) honestly i thought they didn't do very much other than maybe going first but if going first means you lose a battle to someone 2 or 3 lvls lower than you then maybe that says something about the build or strategy that was used, or possibly a lack of support
AQW Epic  Post #: 7
5/23/2015 20:26:56   
.Lord Ginger.
Member

Yea, I'm rank 109. I kind of got screwed over. Low ranks are perfect, though. But I'm screwed over, as well as many other high rankers.
AQW Epic  Post #: 8
5/23/2015 21:46:24   
The berserker killer
Member

 

 can I give up my ranks yet? no? oh okay
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 9
5/23/2015 22:22:46   
Lord Machaar
Member

Underdog mode was brought due to popular demand, when you ^ come here and say underdog mode is OP, you don't stop here, OP when you use +6 cores, using +6 cores is available for everyone that's first of all, second of all a low rank player (or level 36/37/38/39) needs tons of credits to buy +6 cores, that's something not any player is capable of doing.

When something is conisdered OP, it is firstly available for anyone to abuse, when members of the community said strenght builds are OP, they said "Strenght builds", they didn't say strenght builds with chairman's fury core, nor strenght builds with +6 cores, nor strenght builds of X class, given the fact that strenght builds were OP on various classes.

I've fought with many high rank players, let me tell you something, ranks still give an advantage, like it or not, the underdog mode will stay and might even get buffed in the future when the player base drops even more, otherwise there are 2 solutios, reduce the level difference = more waiting time (impossible when the player base drops down) solution: higher level difference between player = buff to the underdog mode. As simple as 1 + 1 = 2; nor you, nor the community, nor the devs can change this fast, the player base is an uncontrollable variable in this equation, the underdog mode is, so is the maximum level difference between two players who enter the game.

< Message edited by Lord Machaar -- 5/23/2015 22:23:43 >
MQ Epic  Post #: 10
5/23/2015 23:01:09   
The berserker killer
Member

 

 That looks nice and all. id still give up my ranks
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 11
5/23/2015 23:38:35   
Lord Machaar
Member

Too sad you can't.
MQ Epic  Post #: 12
5/23/2015 23:49:00   
The berserker killer
Member

 

 Yes I know, said that in my previous post.
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 13
5/23/2015 23:57:30   
.Lord Ginger.
Member

@Machaar You were the one complaining about revamped underdog. Rank 9 gets +1. Aw, poor you. That's only a taste of what we feel
AQW Epic  Post #: 14
5/24/2015 1:02:28   
Lord Machaar
Member

I haven't complained about that, it was shadow.bane who brought the topic and wondered why the underdog mode is given when there is only 2 ranks difference, it is an engine limitation. And I said tht I prefer the current system. I suggest you to read my post again.

If you are frightened about 1 stat on str/tech/dex/supp you had +40s and +30s before the underdog mode, that wasn't a problem, balancing the game is a problem for you? Don't contradict with yourself, when there were 60 ranks before the underdog mode and you faced rank 1, the advantage back then wasn't huge? And now you come to complain about +1 on all stats, that is merely an advantage.

All I know is true high ranks players who count on their skills rather than the advantage given have no problems with the underdog mode.
It would be great if you actually attack the underdog mode with solid and logical reasoning rather than pointing me, there is nothing I can give you mate, nor targeting me will make the underdog mode gets revamped. The mode was brought thanks to solid reasoning, it only get revamped if it is proven to have flaws in it, which till now, there are no signs of flaws. What you have presented are just shallow reasons of a high rank player who used to win a lot and now he don't, can you answer this question with honesty, what is your win ratio?

< Message edited by Lord Machaar -- 5/24/2015 9:32:31 >
MQ Epic  Post #: 15
5/24/2015 1:57:40   
The berserker killer
Member

 

 I play for an advantage to win. In the end, I win. If I face someone of equal level I will acknowledge that player and rely on my skill. If I face someone of lower level I count on my advantage. That's basically it. That's just me so I don't really need any long explanation about the difference between skill, experience, balance or whatever. In the end I only play to win.

I have pointed out the flaws and unfairness already in the underdog system and im satisfied knowing that I spoke out against it

< Message edited by The berserker killer -- 5/24/2015 1:58:18 >
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 16
5/24/2015 2:02:16   
T.600
Member

Yes, underdog gives a SLIGHT advantage to lower ranks, but you ignore the fact that with your ranks, you have higher damage, defence and resistance. Let's not forget that you can use cores for less energy and that your field medic can heal more. I would much rather be a high rank (who plays smartly) than a lower rank with the slight underdog mode bonuses.

Machaar is correct, it seems like you were just accustomed to winning a lot without trying, due to the benefits accrued from legendary points and now you are looking for excuses to account for you losing more. As for the xp/credit bonuses (and underdog mode in general), they are intended to reduce the (previous too large) gaps between high and low ranks, which were unfair. Using the e-level conversion, a low rank vsing a high rank was almost an 8 level difference. How is that fair?

I can even use examples to support our side of the argument. Yesterday, I did 22 pvp wins (for the mission). I won 22 and lost 2 as a mid rank BM. I lost once to someone who was a higher rank than me, even with the underdog bonuses he won thanks to a rage deflection, crit he did, and then an aux stun. The second loss was to xx Jai Ho xx, a rank 80+ NPC botter, fitting into the same category as you. He won because of a deflection with less tech. With the extra damage and def/res he had, I could have probably won.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 17
5/24/2015 2:24:32   
The berserker killer
Member

 

 Why do you think underdog mode affects your stats directly? Because it gives you more benefits. Increased chances to block/deflect/crit/connect strike/go first in a game where any one of those decides who wins and who loses a match. Especially the latter. Our %'s have gone down? Maybe 2 or 3 wins, 5 at the most. But that's not the point. We worked hard. You guys (low rankers) didn't. It doesn't matter if it was because we had time, or we played earlier, or even if we started playing the second the update came out. We played. Low rankers didn't. We played for advantages. Low rankers didn't. That's just how I envision things so I don't need any explanation of fairness or balance or whatever. If you work hard you deserve to "Party", and in this case, by "Party" I mean kill everyone else who didnt.

Once again, Devs insanely underestimated this mode. My current resistance is 263. If I add 5 points (If I were underdog), it would be 275. What does that mean in total?

-I get 12 points on resistance

-5 points on technology

- increased damage on skills that increase with technology

- higher % to deflect

- higher % to not be deflected

-8 minimum damage on my bot in a game where matches are literally decided by a point.

Here, ill do it again on a different stat. My current dex is 266. If I add 5 points (If I were the underdog) i'd get:

-17 points on my defense

-5 points on dexterity

- increased damage on skills that increase with dex

- 7 more gun damage on a game where you can win by a single point

-higher % to block

-higher % to connect strike



I don't care if that % is half a percent, it still grants my opponent 1 more advantage over me. I would rather take all of those instead of JUST higher def/res. The best part? I didn't even add in eternal enhance cores/eternal protection. So not only do you get the 12 on Res and 15 on Defense, but with eternal protection you'll also get an extra 15 on both defenses! But that's okay. Try the +6 cores and eternal enhance if you have time.

I'm not bashing anyone, so I ask that if anyone replies to this message that you do not bash me. If you want fair, instead of having underdog mode affect your stats make it affect ypur Primary, sidearm, aux, robot, defense, and res and watch it become a whole nother story. Why is that fair? Because Legendary Ranks DO NOT affect our stats directly.


Edit: Once again, please show some respect. I'm only commenting on a thread with my own personal experiences that really wont change regardless of what anyone says. All I ask is for respect in your replies IMO youre basically getting ranks for free. Its not fair and I will never think it's fair. The mode may not be removed from the game but I've got no problem speaking out against it. And by "fair" I don't mean that im losing more. If anything just a maximum of 5 extra losses I've never had before. By fair I mean that I worked for this.

< Message edited by The berserker killer -- 5/24/2015 2:40:00 >
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 18
5/24/2015 4:04:35   
Ranloth
Banned


 Few things to consider:
  • Ranks still give more power than Underdog, regardless of the fact that stat boost is more effective than a flat out increase to damage / defense.
  • Instead of focusing purely on Ranks, think about all the other players and not just a few. Below L40, you get skill points and your HP/EP still scale with level which on average is around +1 stat point (total). Skill point difference is even more significant.
  • We had rewards lowered for the Underdog, if they win the battle. Something you yourself wanted, and it made sense to us, to lower it too.
  • You mentioned paying for Ranks. Prices can and can't be adjusted - backlash is the issue, no matter how good the lower prices for Ranks would be, backlash can often outweigh that and do more harm than good. Whilst I personally agree the price for each Point should be lowered slightly, we can't do it that easily - think enhancements removal and the compensation there, which had to be given because the feature was removed - here, we are only making things cheaper but some still would've paid more than others, especially in Varium.
  • Matchmaking times can be improved by matching you with lower level and giving them a power boost. Once the playerbase gets even smaller - and this isn't Omega to blame, because players quit over time either way - then this will have even bigger impact on search times for a match.

    Either way, Underdog Mode won't be nerfed from the current power it gives. It's also unlikely we will give it any boosts, either - it seems to be doing the job, without granting way too much power, as intended.

    < Message edited by Ranloth -- 5/24/2015 4:36:13 >
    • AQ Epic  Post #: 19
    5/24/2015 4:23:19   
    King Bling
    Member

    		When the lower ranks faced high ranks ,and got to high rank they dint have under dog still they got to high rank, then why now, they should have introduced the underdog mode as soon as the legendary mode was introduce, this way the ones who ranked invested more time to rank while you people are givning other low rank more exp to rank faster but think, did the high ranks get any "Extra" advantage when they were low? nope so why the low ranks
    Post #: 20
    5/24/2015 4:34:15   
    Ranloth
    Banned


    		 Because obviously balance isn't perfect, and Devs didn't predict this is what would happen to PvP once people got into higher Ranks - basically, underestimated the power boost it gave over everyone else. Funnily enough, I also thought the boosts wouldn't be enough, before the Legendary Mode was released - and posted it on the Forums IIRC - but the reality was different.

    Also, the way it's codes into the game (Underdog Mode) is more of a new feature, since there were quite a few back-end changes. So perhaps it wasn't done as easily at the time either (nor they thought it'd be necessary). It still won't get removed nor nerfed (when it comes to stat boosts), so.
    AQ Epic  Post #: 21
    5/24/2015 4:51:32   
    Uchiha Sarada
    Banned


    		 Ranloth: How are you doing in pvp now? I saw you once and you are a low rank?



    Ghost I think You're Wrong.

    I have a Rank 79 Account and before this underdog thing, I used to eat in battle the low ranks like a piece of cake with no skill but it also was very easy to destroy a low rank with the +6 Stat cores on Str, Dex, Tech,Support, which is way more than the last UnderDog Lvl.

    How is this underdog thingy possibly make the opponent harder to defeat than an opponent with +6 stats cores on everything? Opponents I used to beat very easy with no skill at all before the underdog update. I think what made the real impact was the nerf to primary dmg and gun dmg stat changes, Dattebayo.

    I think that You're only looking at the tree, and not the whole forest


    < Message edited by Uchiha Sarada -- 5/24/2015 4:57:39 >
    AQW Epic  Post #: 22
    5/24/2015 9:56:36   
    The berserker killer
    Member

     

    		 Thanks for the replies guys.
    @Ranloth: I know it won't be removed, my hope was that it could be tweaked it abit but now that I see it wont be tweaked I guess I'll have to put up with it.

    @Uchiha- I can see why you might say I'm wrong. My point is that direct stat changes is a huge advantage to anyone. Not small. If under dog mode affected just everything below Support, then itd be fair. If legendary mode affected our stats directly, then itd be fair

    Edit: Yea the primary and gun changes really killed diversity and easy access builds for new players who have no idea how to create a build. I hope this change can be reversed

    < Message edited by The berserker killer -- 5/24/2015 9:58:17 >
    AQ DF Epic  Post #: 23
    5/24/2015 10:01:44   
    Ranloth
    Banned


    		 Gun change isn't getting reversed either - the idea was around since at least Gamma, and Strength abuse has gotten to the point where drastic change was necessary. Strength builds are still viable with some strategy involved; simple abuse is not.
    AQ Epic  Post #: 24
    5/24/2015 10:17:33   
    Lord Machaar
    Member

    		^ Another high rank player saying that before the underdog mode, low rank players were a piece of cake. Thanks for your opinion.

    @TBK:

    Now you are talking mathematic, I like to talk mathematic, it is way much better than talking a lot, alright let's detail a little bit your post.

    quote:

    But that's not the point. We worked hard. You guys (low rankers) didn't. It doesn't matter if it was because we had time, or we played earlier, or even if we started playing the second the update came out. We played. Low rankers didn't. We played for advantages. Low rankers didn't.


    When 2 racers start the race at 2 different times, the result is clear. Time = Hard Work = Money. If you started just right after the underdog system was released, that's good for you, but the game doesn't revolve around you, in order for the game to continue, it needs to make a proper PVP environement for them. At All Costs.
    If we make games based on your vision, no one will never, ever, play another game again after its release, because then it will be who played the game first. What logic do you have?
    In one post you say that in order to get players back, we need to bring this and that and etc... What you are doing here is making players never come back with your "Vision".

    quote:

    Once again, Devs insanely underestimated this mode. My current resistance is 263. If I add 5 points (If I were underdog), it would be 275. What does that mean in total?

    -I get 12 points on resistance

    -5 points on technology

    - increased damage on skills that increase with technology

    - higher % to deflect

    - higher % to not be deflected

    -8 minimum damage on my bot in a game where matches are literally decided by a point.


    Maths. Maths. Maths. Alright let's start, you said your current resistance is 263, given the fact you used 10 legendary stats on it, they give +30 resistance, so if you were an underdog, you would have 233 resistance.
    You are talking about the limits of the underdog mode, the maximum difference between 2 players, and once again, just like I said in my last reply, when something is OP, it is OP in all its forms with no conditions, when we said that strenght builds are OP, we didn't that strenght builds are OP at rank 30 or 90 or level 1, we didn't say that strenght builds are OP with +6 cores or with a condition.
    The condition you gave here is: 5 + on all stats, and this means the underdog mode is level 9 , do you know the maximum level a player can get this underdog mode (level 9)? Ofcourse you don't, it is level 39, so the condition you gave here, the underdog mode is OP at level 39.

    Treating another example of the underdog mode level 9, you basically saying that in the case of level 30 vs level 39, the level 30 player that has 9 levels less than his opponent doesn't derserve 5 points? Alright let's math. 9 Levels difference means 36 skill points + More stats on your weapons + The ability to put them where you want (the right to choose your build) + Skills. Treating another example Level 39 vs Rank 80, that's 80 ranks and 1 level in difference.

    Just FYI, this post is not for you, because frankly I don't care if you change your mind or not, if the people I wanted them to agree with that I've said, have agreed, and the underdog mode is here, that's all I want, this post is just to correct the false information you give to distract the community, next time you want to say the underdog mode is unfair, make sure to use another argument because this one is invalid.

    < Message edited by Lord Machaar -- 5/24/2015 10:32:29 >
    MQ Epic  Post #: 25
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