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Fire Scythe unusable for tech mages

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5/17/2015 7:06:51   
Stonehawk
Member

Hiyas! I just came here to tell you guys that fire scythe is a bit messed and unusable for Tech Mages. I just faced one full of strength and support, and he crit ONLY 370 with MAXED fire scythe (and I don't have high defense (even if I had it would probably ignore most of it, lol)). Its costs are too high for so low damage, so I would suggest either some additional damage, higher chance to crit or lower costs AND lower cooldown (3 turns cooldown... why?! All skills that ignore defenses AND increase chance to crit are only 2 turns cooldown. This one has a single effect and cooldown is higher. It needs a fix!)

(And I still think Fireball and Fire Scythe should change places, but I'm not sure about this. People would probably complain TMs will have another skill for staff only and stuff...)
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 1
5/17/2015 8:24:44   
The berserker killer
Member

 

 1) this skill is far from useless. I can say that for a fact because there are several builds with it. Not to mention its an unblockable cheap attack that ignores a % of someone's defense.
2) ill be completely fine with changing the cool down to 2 but that's just my greedy side speaking knowing that I will completely abuse it
3) id prefer firescythe to stay exactly where it is. Its an amazing skill that really makes techmages special
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 2
5/17/2015 8:28:59   
Mother1
Member

Fire scythe is far from useless.

It is one the only physical move on the TM skill tree that is unblockable/undeflectable making it a perfect counter to ice shield core.

It also ignores defenses by a percent even if it doesn't improve with anything which also makes this move useful when battling tanks.
Epic  Post #: 3
5/17/2015 8:45:48   
Stonehawk
Member

But it's still weaker if comparing to another skill with similar effects, isn't it? All other skills that ignore defense also give a % chance to crit, and they do flat damage, always higher than a primary weapon damage. The higher cooldown, a single effect and the improvement on strength (which was nerfed) makes it weak. After strength was modified, it became even weaker. Ignoring defenses won't make it hit as high as a maxed fireball, for example.



@Mother1
Fighting tanks? Even if you max it, 470 primary (45 strength + 10 legendary points on primary weapon) on a 400 defense person would hit 258 only only 238 for 300 energy (not sure about the costs) (I was right, it costs 300), and no additional effect. It IS weak, and a lvl 1 is just an unblockable attack, 'cause the defense ignored is a joke.


< Message edited by Stonehawk -- 5/17/2015 8:52:55 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 4
5/17/2015 8:46:49   
Darkwing
Member

This skill is crap, I say as Tech mage for a long time. Low damage, high energy cost, needs 42 support. I would rather use max plasma bolt or max overload and I don't even needs tech or dex abuse to outdamage the skill.


I would rather if they make blockable or deflectable but give it real damage.
Post #: 5
5/17/2015 8:55:33   
Stonehawk
Member

@Darkwing

You're right about plasma and overload doing better damage, but making it blockable with better damage = bludgeon, lol. It needs lower cooldown and a new effect in it.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 6
5/17/2015 11:55:29   
Mother1
Member

@ stonehawk

Tanks have low HP so 238 Damage on a player that has 750 HP (Most Tanks I see have low HP) is a little under 1/3 of their HP bar, and with rage when I attack them I get near close to half the their HP bar with it and I only use it at level 5.

Plus as I pointed out when I use it I either rage it, or use the move when someone tries to stall me with that Cyber yeti buff that makes everything that is blockable or deflectable do so.
Epic  Post #: 7
5/17/2015 12:57:18   
Stonehawk
Member

@Mother1
Rage ignores defenses, the skill already does it, so it's not a big difference between rage or not, because primary damage is low, unlike fireball for example would do more damage 'cause it does 570 damage at max level with this same strength (45), I think... plus fireball protects you from kartherax, fire scythe doesn't.

Anyway, if you're saying the skill is fine with this only effect and 3 turns cooldown, what can I do? But I was never beaten by anyone using that skill, just so you know.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 8
5/17/2015 13:02:17   
Satafou
Member

Just make it like Legendary Titan's version and it'll be balanced!!!
Post #: 9
5/17/2015 15:33:09   
The berserker killer
Member

 

 you guys do understand you don't need to max this skill right? lvl 1 costs like 120 energy, ignores 15%. s unblockable, and offers you a physical attack. If anything I would suggest adding a crit %, lower the sup requirement/get rid of it, and make this skill so it is NOT affected by kartherax. That was a huge turn off when I saw this skill was affected by kartherax
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 10
5/17/2015 17:10:24   
Ranloth
Banned


 The move isn't designed to do raw damage, but counter tanks - defense wise, but also with being unblockable and undeflectable. Yes, it is expensive to use. Yes, it is weak on a normal build. And no, it's not meant to compare to the likes of Plasma Bolt on all opponents, but tanks only. If we're going to do comparisons between the two, make sure to use the same amount of Str / Tech for respectable skills. Otherwise, like Stonehawk did, you cannot use it with 45 Str and +30 Primary bonus (or ~60 Strength) and then have someone else compare it to likes of Plasma Bolt or Overload, when the two are mostly used with at least 100-120 in their respectable stat.
AQ Epic  Post #: 11
5/18/2015 17:46:28   
.Lord Ginger.
Member

Normal build is focus b/c you guys nerf everything else. You want STR balanced, but it sucks now. STR isn't even a good option now.
AQW Epic  Post #: 12
5/19/2015 12:44:47   
Variation
Member
 

 I believe the starting stat requirement (24 support) is clearly too high for Fire Scythe. The skill is a utility skill and in its current state or the one I will propose Fire Scythe abuse won't be an issue.

I suggest changing the starting stat requirement to 17 support (at level 1) and for each increment in the skill level increase the support requirement by 1. That would make Fire Scythe a lot more accessible for lower support builds while still keeping it a utility skill at best. I wouldn't suggest changing the cooldown on the skill because at the time it clearly isn't needed.

My main issue with the usability of Fire Scythe is just how inaccessible it is for some builds. It's a util skill at best. One that I believe all Tech Mage builds should have access to which is specifically why A) I proposed a 17 support requirement at level 1 and B) Instead of the support requirement increasing by 2 per level it would increase by 1 per level.
Post #: 13
5/19/2015 16:30:11   
The berserker killer
Member

 

 The support requirement is a huge problem with this skill. Yes, I do believe that support should be in all builds however the support requirement is just too high. I agree with variation to lower the support requirement to 17 and allow the req to increase by 1 per level instead of 2. With the cooldown, this definitely should not be an issue.
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 14
5/19/2015 17:55:04   
.Lord Ginger.
Member

Or replace fire scythe with deadly aim
AQW Epic  Post #: 15
5/20/2015 10:02:09   
The berserker killer
Member

 

 @ Lord Ginger, only in a perfect world T_T. We may never have our passives back, even as additions on to the classes now with their skill tree. That would be absolutely revolutionary should they return on top of our skill tree
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 16
5/20/2015 17:34:15   
Stonehawk
Member

@TBK
quote:

If anything I would suggest adding a crit %,

makes sense, it would be similar to cheap shot with the addition of being unblockable, but higher costs, cooldown and requirements. I like this suggestion.

quote:

lower the sup requirement/get rid of it

Umm... no. Selfish suggestion that increases abusive builds.

quote:

and make this skill so it is NOT affected by kartherax. That was a huge turn off when I saw this skill was affected by kartherax

That's one of the reasons I suggested it to be replaced by fireball. It will be hard to make Fire Scythe unaffected by kartherax, since fire scythe does the PRIMARY damage with defense ignore and kartherax affects PRIMARY damage directly. fireball has its flat damage, being unaffected by kartherax, but it has only a single effect aswell, and staff requirement, so people would probably complain (even though no one uses a sword mage anyway).

@Ranloth
quote:

Otherwise, like Stonehawk did, you cannot use it with 45 Str and +30 Primary bonus (or ~60 Strength) and then have someone else compare it to likes of Plasma Bolt or Overload, when the two are mostly used with at least 100-120 in their respectable stat.

I compared it to skills that improves with stats that give you DEFENSE/RESISTANCE and other bonuses. People would make those stats high with pleasure. Now WHO would ever make strength as high as 100+ on a Tech Mage after strength's double nerf?

@Variation
quote:

I suggest changing the starting stat requirement to 17 support (at level 1) and for each increment in the skill level increase the support requirement by 1. That would make Fire Scythe a lot more accessible for lower support builds while still keeping it a utility skill at best.

Once again, this is a selfish suggestion that would make it a powerful tool to all abusive builds, like FULL dexterity being able to use it and even strength abuse builds would come out. Such high defense ignore can't be given without enough support requirements, because they prevent strength abuse. This change would ruin all tankers life (you guys would certainly complain about builds like maxed fire scythe doing 400+ damage without rage or crit on a tanker with 400 defense and maxed Assimilation draining 300+ energy).

@.Lord Ginger.
quote:

Or replace fire scythe with deadly aim

1- Passives aren't coming back, unfortunately.
2- Another abusive skill for dexterity mages. I definitely don't wanna see dextery mages with 650+ sidearm damage, lol.

AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 17
5/20/2015 18:20:24   
Variation
Member
 

 @Stonehawk: It's a util skill and it's also highly apparent that if you're versus a "FULL dexterity" build or a "strength abuse" build Fire Scythe even with my proposed solution would be one of the least worries of a good player. You stated yourself in the opening of this thread,
quote:

I just faced one full of strength and support, and he crit ONLY 370 with MAXED fire scythe (and I don't have high defense (even if I had it would probably ignore most of it, lol)).

so that abuse argument to my suggestion is by all means laughable.

My suggestion would allow Fire Scythe to be usable on a much more broader range of builds, even if the skill is only at level 1. That doesn't seem selfish to me, the support requirement is still there, just lowered. I cannot think of a single player that I know who would break a sweat over going against suicide dexterity Tech Mages rocking a level one Fire Scythe. Also if someone is capable of hitting 400+ damage on a tank build with Fire Scythe and drain 300+ energy with Assimilation the person capable of such shouldn't expect to live too much longer than that, nevermind win. I'm gonna need a lot more elaboration on how:
1)My suggestion is selfish despite the fact it will expand the builds that will have access to Fire Scythe, even if only at level 1.
2)My suggestion will lead to a "powerful tool to all abusive builds", despite the fact you made it apparent abuse is a little issue considering some hit 370 damage on you. That doesn't seem like some powerful tool to me.

EDIT: I cannot support a cooldown reduction and or a chance to critical strike with the skill. The skill has its uses and there are no reasons (not even from a balance standpoint) to make it easier to spam and or giving it a hardcoded percentage to land a critical strike. Yes Bunker Buster and Plasma Cannon behave differently than Fire Scythe, but Fire Scythe doesn't need to inherit their behavior(s) because it's not weak in those regards. The skill in its current state just needs to become more accessible and for the n-th time even if it's at level 1.

< Message edited by Variation -- 5/20/2015 18:33:54 >
Post #: 18
5/20/2015 19:13:14   
Stonehawk
Member

quote:

I just faced one full of strength and support, and he crit ONLY 370 with MAXED fire scythe (and I don't have high defense (even if I had it would probably ignore most of it, lol)).


That was just to show how weak this skill is even when maxed, but I said full of strength and support, so he had stats on support too.
Making it usable with 17 support at lvl 1 and 26 support on max lvl will make people possibly max it without the support to prevent abuse. The support requirement on this skill is used the same way they used it to parasite: if a strength build with 26 support could use parasite, people would abuse those builds even more (we all remember how people used to use parasite with strength BMs when strength was powerful and support made people choose between using parasite with some strength or very high strength without parasite), so they added the 42 support requirement to encourage focus and prevent the possibility to abuse strength completely and still use parasite. People had to choose. Same to fire scythe, if you want to abuse strength extremely, you won't be able to max that skill.

Anyway, lowering requirements is not bad at all, but I would say 17 at lvl 1 and +2 per lvl (up to 35 on max lvl?), or maybe 26 on lvl 1 and +1 per lvl (up to 35), but absolutely NOT 17 AND +1 per lvl (up to 26).

Also, I don't see any problem on 2 turns cooldown for it. It won't make the skill abusive because it can't do so much damage unless you have very high strength, which means lower defenses, so you won't live long enough to spam this skill abusively. Well, that's my opinion. Focus builds, the defensive ones (as I mentioned the example with 45 strength before) won't do much with that skill, so it will be just an uneffective unblockable attack.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 19
5/20/2015 19:37:03   
Variation
Member
 

 @Stonehawk: 17 support requirement at level 1 and +2 after that is fine also, seeing it would still make the skill more accessible. Like I said even if some Tech Mage builds can only use it level 1 at least they can take advantage of it and implement it to their strategies (therefore a maximum of 17 support required at level 1). I agree with you also that I don't see any huge balance concerns with setting the cooldown to 2 turns(even if it would be easier to spam), but I don't really see it as necessary. It's something the team could grant it if they wanted to offer it a little of a boost to a more major change to the skill (such as making it more accessible).

The 17 support requirement and increasing it by 1 each for each level (after one) was simply a prototype to show what I meant by making it more accessible. I just see the 17 support requirement at level 1 a must have for this skill because it would allow much more Tech Mages to utilize it.

Thanks for replying constructively. If balance was always discussed like this the game could progress so much better.
Post #: 20
5/20/2015 23:41:44   
Ranloth
Banned


 @Stonehawk
Who would use Str abuse? Who knows. I was just saying that you cannot compare one skill at 100+ <stat> and other at like 50-60 <stat> and hope for a fair comparison - it's just flawed, because the stats are uneven. Realistically speaking? You may have a point, but skills are balanced based on their power and not being realistic about it - after all, ED went through many fads which made some skills OP and the rest UP, and vice versa.


Anyway, the requirement change will be looked into before tomorrow's release.
AQ Epic  Post #: 21
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