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=AQ3D= Design Notes October 15th, 2015 - Dragons

 
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10/15/2015 18:14:34   
Azan
Member

quote:


Artix Krieger
Paladin


Dragons
By Artix Krieger on Thursday, October 15, 2015



"Dragons are cool." - Artix

Long before humans, Dragons ruled our world. I could write a entire books on the vast breeds, personalities, and legends of the Dragons that roam our skies. But for those less patient, know that dragons play a vital role in our world's history and future. Of the many things a hero should know adventuring in a world full of dragons... the following is the most vital:

Drake
A baby dragon. It can be hard for the untrained eye to determine which kind of dragon a Drake will grow into. Depending on the breed, some Drakes will not start growing their arms nor legs until they reach 50 years of age. Warning! Never get in between a Mother Dragon and her baby Drake.

Beast Dragons
Not all dragons are intelligent... take the Beast Dragons for example. They are feral and savage. They cannot speak, nor cast magic spell. But do not underestimate one! Beast dragons have terrifyingly powerful breath weapons. They are greedy, territorial, and endlessly hungry. When you hear a lone dragon has been eating a famer's livestock, or travelers were attacked on a road, be suspect it is a beast dragon.

Elemental Dragons
While all Dragons are bred with one of the elements that makes up our world, we refer to Elemental Dragons with greater respect. They are intelligent and can cast magic spells of their element. Like other intelligent species this means they can be both evil or good. These elemental Dragons can use their powers to control monsters that match their elemental type. Throughout our history we have seen several powerful Elemental Dragons raise armies and attack our towns. They are extremely hard to kill since only certain weapons can even hurt them. Thankfully, these Elemental Dragons are smart and tend avoid conflict unless provoked. Should you encounter one of these dragons... draw and weild your sharp wits before your sword.

Great Dragons
Massive, impossibly powerful, god-like Dragons... they are also bigger than the largest Titans. The last Great Dragon we saw in our word was the Great Fire Dragon, Akriloth. Few survived through the tragic war he started to tell the tale of what actually happened. There has not been a single sighting of a great dragon since. Which means either they are all extinct... or really, really, really, well hidden away somewhere. Sleeping. Dreaming. Waiting.

EXTRA: It should be noted that the egg of Akriloth's grandchild was reported to be discovered, but it never hatched. Museums from many towns are sending treasure hunters to try to secure it for their collection.



Energy Dragon (On Twitter I mistakenly called it a Frost Dragon, but "I saw the light"... well, the lightning breath.)

Today, as I write this to you, Dage is finishing painting the first of Xero's AdventureQuest 3D Dragon Models. Which is good news for all of you DragonSlayers out there... because it means we will see at least one Dragon go live with the BETA.


Tagged! ~Gingkage

< Message edited by Gingkage -- 10/15/2015 18:33:24 >
Post #: 1
10/15/2015 21:59:01   
Womba
Member

Artix forgot to mention that even infant dragons are by and far, some of the most deadly creatures in the world. Even a majority of would-be heroes couldn't handle them.

But then dragons became mainstream and pretty much a joke. :P
DF AQW  Post #: 2
10/16/2015 12:20:03   
David the Wanderer
Legendary AK!


Dragons have always been mainstream, to be fair.
DF AQW  Post #: 3
10/16/2015 13:53:09   
LyRein
Member

@above

I'm just going to leave this here
Post #: 4
10/17/2015 1:41:20   
Womba
Member

@David Yeah but let's face it... good old days of DnD... if you encountered a dragon. For whatever reason. Everybody was pretty much dead. ESPECIALLY if it was an infant dragon as mama dragons are very protective of their young (means you had to contend with multiple lizards if stealth options didn't work). It took a long time of preparation to even be ready to challenge those monsters.

Now? Just poke it with sword a few times and they fall down... pffft.
DF AQW  Post #: 5
10/17/2015 6:34:48   
David the Wanderer
Legendary AK!


@Womba: Oh, I know what you're talking about. The good old days when the word "dragon" summoned fear in the hearts of even the most hardened adventurers, when these winged beasts were heralds of death for all those who challenged them... I hope AQ3D manages to bring that feeling. Dragons shouldn't be an enemy type that you encounter often; every dragon, even the ones that aren't bosses of whatever, should pose a challenge.

@LyRein: Uh, what does a dinosaur having a geeky name supposed to tell me?
DF AQW  Post #: 6
10/17/2015 8:42:25   
Grandpa Oz
How We Roll Winner
Nov14


It's a fantasy game, they can interpret it however they want *shrug* It's not like there are real-life dragons you had to refer to.
DF AQW  Post #: 7
10/17/2015 9:03:33   
Azan
Member

quote:

@David Yeah but let's face it... good old days of DnD... if you encountered a dragon. For whatever reason. Everybody was pretty much dead. ESPECIALLY if it was an infant dragon as mama dragons are very protective of their young (means you had to contend with multiple lizards if stealth options didn't work). It took a long time of preparation to even be ready to challenge those monsters.

quote:

@Womba: Oh, I know what you're talking about. The good old days when the word "dragon" summoned fear in the hearts of even the most hardened adventurers, when these winged beasts were heralds of death for all those who challenged them... I hope AQ3D manages to bring that feeling. Dragons shouldn't be an enemy type that you encounter often; every dragon, even the ones that aren't bosses of whatever, should pose a challenge.

I 100% agree with this. Dragons should really be powerful monsters that pose a threat for even the most high-leveled players.
Post #: 8
10/17/2015 9:31:32   
LyRein
Member

@Azan

AE is most likely not going to do that.

In all their games Dragons are common, can talk in English, aren't really as frightening as GRRM Dragons.
I mean the Dragonslayers are pretty okay with killing them, no hard-work, no second-thoughts.

@David the Wanderer

Dracorex is called Dracorex because dragon-shaped skull.
It was a Dragon before they became popular.
(So yeah, Dragons are pretty mainstream, even in the dinosaur era).

@Grandpa Oz

Komodo Dragon ancestor (Megalania) could spit poison that had potential to burn skin and it was massive.
Minus the wings.

Oh, couple others resembling Dragons:
Yi Qi
Pterodactyl
Dracorex (as mentioned before)

Just loads of inspiration!


< Message edited by LyRein -- 10/17/2015 9:37:03 >
Post #: 9
10/17/2015 11:55:21   
Vypie
Member

Oh, I just remembered this little guy here!

Draco Volans
Despite not exactly flying, it can glide pretty well!

It has membranes that it can stretch to make 'wings'. These membranes are stretched by the action of moving ribs that extend outwards. Yes. Its 'wings' are basically HUGE RIBS THAT CAN MOVE.
I would like to see a dragon inspired by that! :D
Epic  Post #: 10
10/17/2015 15:42:32   
Caststarter
Member

Uhh... folks? A few things need to be said.

Regarding things being named after dragons, that does not mean they ARE dragons. As I was talking to someone, it was essentially said that it was more like the bones were mistaken for dragon bones, rather than dinosaur bones. Especially with the Komodo Dragon and its ancestor. Just because it has dragon in the name does not make it a dragon. Even the dinosaur named after them was more scientists being plain goofy. In fact, I already know there are games that has their own looks at the komodo dragon, bacteria bite and all. Look at EO3/4 with the Greedy Lizard. It is an FOE. FOE's are notorious for being particularly nasty monsters. Let me just say that. Being inspired by such creatures? Oh that is perfectly fine. But the creatures themselves are not dragons. Dragons are a myth and were also exaggerations of other, actually existing creatures. Compare the anglo-saxon dragon to the eastern Asian dragon. Note how DRASTICALLY different they are. Even Fafnir, a Norse dwarf turned dragon, was notably serpent-like in comparison.

Another thing about dragons being weak... blame gameplay mechanics compared to story mechanics. Story-wise, they are powerful enemies. Gameplay wise, a variety of factors WILL influence difficulty. I would also like to note that back then, the balance curve of players vs enemies was rather steep. These days though, since video games are becoming more and more of an interactive medium which AE here commonly displays which I LIKE, the curve was lowered to adjust to that as you no longer needed to have a difficult game to keep the hours pouring in. This in turn also affected dragons. It would be perfectly fine if gameplay wise dragons presented a challenge but story-wise, they were always strong. If you want to know some particularly powerful dragons gameplay-wise in video games, then look at Etrian Odyssey. The three elemental dragons are SUPERbosses... in the post-game. Have fun. Oh, and have fun with the other dragon-based creatures. When you first meet them at the expected level, expect them to be a THREAT at all times. Heck, Wyvern in the first game could be met in the second stratum... when it can be beaten after the fourth or fifth stratum. I am sure there are plenty of other cases where dragons in a video-game was quite the threat. I am sure AE can do the same here, like they always have done.

And Lyrein... you do know that intelligence automatically means they are more threatening? Where also if they can speak in plain good-old English (or Common in other works...), that also means you can communicate with them where you can try to reason with them or trick you? Where intelligence also gives them a personality which means they can display a vast array of emotions via speaking alone? Where that means they can also have vices? Like greed that is commonly depicted (Fafnir?)? Where that means if you anger them or try to steal from them, they have the magical ability to instantly fry you? Just something to think about...
DF  Post #: 11
10/17/2015 17:35:26   
LyRein
Member

@above

quote:

Regarding things being named after dragons, that does not mean they ARE dragons.


We didn't say they were? We were just stating dinosaurs, birds or reptiles resembling dragons that could be used for inspiration.

quote:

And Lyrein... you do know that intelligence automatically means they are more threatening? Where also if they can speak in plain good-old English (or Common in other works...), that also means you can communicate with them where you can try to reason with them or trick you? Where intelligence also gives them a personality which means they can display a vast array of emotions via speaking alone? Where that means they can also have vices? Like greed that is commonly depicted (Fafnir?)? Where that means if you anger them or try to steal from them, they have the magical ability to instantly fry you? Just something to think about...


Where did I ever say intelligence is a bad thing...?

All I said was that Dragon's somehow can speak English, even though they would lack the mouth structure.
If they share similar mouth structures like us, then why do they all speak English, why not German, Arabic or more believably Latin (if they're ancient). Better yet why didn't they form their own language?

How we got to our level of intelligence required us to use tools, create language, build society and be social.

That's all I really said.. other than that everything you've wrote about intelligence is unrelated to my post.

EDIT

Just another thing to think about.

Why are humans dominant species in AE universe if Dragons have our level intelligence, are magical-blooded, don't require weapons cause Firebreathing Ex Machina, build nests, can create societies/alliances with other Dragons and can also speak?

Pit a medieval fantasy knight against medieval fantasy Dragon, both of human intelligence, Dragon wins.


< Message edited by LyRein -- 10/17/2015 17:42:31 >
Post #: 12
10/17/2015 17:48:26   
David the Wanderer
Legendary AK!


Uh, how exactly is dragons speaking somehow less believable than them breathing fire/other stuff, flying even if their wings couldn't physically work, cast magic, etc.?
Also, at least in DF, Dragons do have their own language, but, for obvious reasons, when they speak to the player they speak in "English", because they want to communicate.

Also, dragons, usually, seem to not build structures or tools, and many works depict them as solitary beings, each specimen living in its own nest, away from others. So maybe dragons just aren't sociable, which is a huge problem when you try to build a civilization.
It is also possible humans reproduce faster than dragons. Even if a dragon can beat an human in most fields, fifty humans are going to be capable of overpowering the dragon in at least some things.
DF AQW  Post #: 13
10/17/2015 17:48:36   
Vypie
Member

I don't think anyone was saying these creatures are dragons or anything. It's fun to point out similar features or resemblances to the mythical dragon, but no one was making the assumption that they were actually dragons.

Dragons were first inspired by real creatures. And in turn, having become such popular mythical creatures, people named some species and nicknaming them after dragons, due to their features, size, morphology, etc.
It's also a good idea to do the opposite, and see these creatures as an inspiration, and use their features to re-imagine a dragon.

The idea of what a dragon can be gives the possibility of endless designs. Like you said, in different places of the world, 'dragons' were depicted very differently, some even having no wings at all. What makes a dragon a dragon?

_________

About the dragons being weak or strong, I think there should be room for some challenge. The difficulty must always be paired with the progress and strength of the character, specially when leveling. You can have dragons be presented as strong entities at all levels of progression.
As long as they don't become overused simple minions, I'm okay with it.

I remember in World of Warcraft, there were young dragons called drakes, and for the most part they seemed like... beasts. Mostly just aggressive, and not very intellectual. They didn't seem intimidating.
But THE dragons? The adult ones? They always were represented as very intelligent superior beings, able to understand magic and other race's languages. Most were depicted as being wise, serious, and generally looking down on puny mortals with either indifference, or disdain.
Usually by manipulating other races to their wills, they usually acted towards a great objective, story-changing purposes. Above all, they always had reasons. Not being the typical "good" or "bad" dragon, you could never know if they would show you mercy or even a bit of help, even if for their own amusement or curiosity.
Thinking, judging, they always showed a higher comprehension of the world in a greater scale. They also had personalities of their own, and talked in perfect English (and other in-game dialects). And when they talked, they sounded really imposing, or intimidating beings.

I think speech opens up so many possibilities of interaction, showing personality and emotion, their reasons and views, etc.
Just please do not make them one-dimensional, or blinded by one goal for no apparent reasons. It takes away the depth that could make a dragon a real authentic character.

(While dragons may lack the mouth structure to speak in the same manner as humans, you have some birds that can reproduce sounds perfectly, even if they don't have any lips or anything. But then you have that dragon, Smaug. He seemed to talk very well, and moved his mouth in a way that looked plausible.)

< Message edited by Vypie -- 10/17/2015 17:57:18 >
Epic  Post #: 14
10/17/2015 18:08:10   
LyRein
Member

quote:

Uh, how exactly is dragons speaking somehow less believable than them breathing fire/other stuff, flying even if their wings couldn't physically work, cast magic, etc.?


Actually in fantasy their wings can work, it's really just a big bird.
Look at the largest pterosaur for starters then put it in a fantasy world with less limits on biology or physics.

Fire breathing isn't hard to believe, if they have some sort of mechanism to inhale gasses and exhale them into rapid fire, like how hydrogen gasses work.

Casting magic, this is fantasy, we can let it slide, otherwise it wouldn't be fantasy.

quote:

Also, at least in DF, Dragons do have their own language, but, for obvious reasons, when they speak to the player they speak in "English", because they want to communicate.


But speaking English isn't believable (Tolkien was believable and he technically created modern fantasy).

If they depended on humans for some kind of language forming they're probably not as smart as us then, but they still end up being so.
Also if they needed us to learn to communicate we could've taken advantage and domesticated them like we did with horses.

Even if it is fantasy having Dragons rely on human tongue makes them less frightening and less capable.

If they have their own language they obviously don't share the same mouth as humans, still doesn't mean we can't understand each-other through hearing (like District 9 Prawns and Humans).

@Vypie

That's different than talking though.
Birds wouldn't be able to talk like us, only repeat after us.

About the structures,

Nests are structures technically.
Caves with haybale, carpets, treasures, drawings, etc are structures.

That's why bird nests can be referred to as birds building a structure.

I'm sure Dragons are sociable though,

Otherwise Dragonplane would cease to exist, which is a Dragon civilization.

quote:

Even if a dragon can beat an human in most fields, fifty humans are going to be capable of overpowering the dragon in at least some things.


Still doesn't mean the Dragon isn't going to kill off half if not more of them.

Reproducing is a good point, but if they have our level of intelligence they'd also know reproducing is vital to survive, also, have you seen their lairs? like 10 eggs per mother jeez.

now couple that with high birth rates in general.


< Message edited by LyRein -- 10/17/2015 18:13:40 >
Post #: 15
10/17/2015 18:29:53   
David the Wanderer
Legendary AK!


@LyRein:
quote:

Actually in fantasy their wings can work, it's really just a big bird.
Look at the largest pterosaur for starters then put it in a fantasy world with less limits on biology or physics.

Fire breathing isn't hard to believe, if they have some sort of mechanism to inhale gasses and exhale them into rapid fire, like how hydrogen gasses work.

Casting magic, this is fantasy, we can let it slide, otherwise it wouldn't be fantasy.


This was exactly my point. If we cherry-pick Fantasy elements because they are "unbelievable", then the whole structure falls apart. Is dragons speaking English unbelievable? Well, the whole idea of dragons has no groundings in reality, so let's eliminate them completely. Also, let's do away with elves, orcs, fairies, dwarves, gnomes... Oh, and magic weapons, too. Also, all that stuff about healing potions, since it's impossible that drinking something is going to make your wounds go away in a split seconds.

quote:

But speaking English isn't believable (Tolkien was believable and he technically created modern fantasy).

If they depended on humans for some kind of language forming they're probably not as smart as us then, but they still end up being so.
Also if they needed us to learn to communicate we could've taken advantage and domesticated them like we did with horses.

Even if it is fantasy having Dragons rely on human tongue makes them less frightening and less capable.

If they have their own language they obviously don't share the same mouth as humans, still doesn't mean we can't understand each-other through hearing (like District 9 Prawns and Humans).


... Have we read the same Tolkien? Glaurung spoke to Turin Turambar, and Smaug talked with Bilbo. Tolkien based his works on old European myths, where dragons often spoke to the heroes who fought them.
I never said dragons depend on humans to make languages, but when they speak with humans, they will obviously talk at them in a language they can understand. Let's suppose you meet somebody from another country who speaks both his native tongue and English. Do you think he'll communicate with you in his native tongue, or use the language that both of you understand (English)?

quote:

Reproducing is a good point, but if they have our level of intelligence they'd also know reproducing is vital to survive, also, have you seen their lairs? like 10 eggs per mother jeez.

now couple that with high birth rates in general.


Who said dragons have high birth rates? Maybe they don't lay eggs as often as humans give birth, or have long gestation periods, or the eggs take a looooong time to hatch (Dragonfable players sure learnt that lesson. ).
DF AQW  Post #: 16
10/17/2015 19:38:15   
LyRein
Member

@David

I gave good explanations for those fantasy elements, because it's possible to do so.
So your point was...?

Dragons can be possible, in our world they just wouldn't be able to fly.

quote:

... Have we read the same Tolkien? Glaurung spoke to Turin Turambar, and Smaug talked with Bilbo. Tolkien based his works on old European myths, where dragons often spoke to the heroes who fought them.
I never said dragons depend on humans to make languages, but when they speak with humans, they will obviously talk at them in a language they can understand. Let's suppose you meet somebody from another country who speaks both his native tongue and English. Do you think he'll communicate with you in his native tongue, or use the language that both of you understand (English)?


He had an excuse though, in his time no-one really knew all too much about myths or bothered.
Also I was referring to Elvish. Elves have a reason to be able to speak human tongue, yet if you placed both them and humans in the same room the only similarities would be their appearance (minus ears) and ancestors. Otherwise you wouldn't have known they are related.

As for country border etc that comparison can't work if both species aren't human and have vastly different body structures.

quote:

Who said dragons have high birth rates?


Look at every dragon nest in AE games.

quote:

or the eggs take a looooong time to hatch (Dragonfable players sure learnt that lesson. ).


This makes sense I suppose.
Post #: 17
10/17/2015 19:46:00   
Rogue Ninja
Member

Hmm, it says elemental dragons, eh? I wonder if they'll release some elemental weapons as well to use it as an advantage against their weaknesses.
AQW Epic  Post #: 18
10/17/2015 22:45:04   
Azan
Member

quote:

Also I was referring to Elvish. Elves have a reason to be able to speak human tongue, yet if you placed both them and humans in the same room the only similarities would be their appearance (minus ears) and ancestors. Otherwise you wouldn't have known they are related.

In Tolkien's works, elves and humans do not share the same ancestors. Elves are the first Children of Ilúvatar, awoken thousands of years before the second Children, humans. While some human houses like the Edain are good friends with some Noldor elves, and Númenoreans in the first glorious times of their civilisation received visits from the Valinor elves, the only two cases where humans and elves have children together are Beren/Lúthien and Aragorn/Arwen. Other than that they're two completely different species.

Now if we're talking AE...
quote:

I never said dragons depend on humans to make languages, but when they speak with humans, they will obviously talk at them in a language they can understand. Let's suppose you meet somebody from another country who speaks both his native tongue and English. Do you think he'll communicate with you in his native tongue, or use the language that both of you understand (English)?

I agree with David on that point. In fact, we could even interpret the "English-speaking Dragons" the following way: not many humans are wise enough to learn the mighty Draconic language, while all dragons easily speak our puny mortal common tongue.

quote:

quote:

Who said dragons have high birth rates?



Look at every dragon nest in AE games.

One AE game =/= another. Plus what David said about eggs taking a long time to hatch is right. Besides, looks at some fish species: the female lays thousands of eggs, and probably less than 0.1% of these eggs ever hatch.

quote:

I'm sure Dragons are sociable though,

Otherwise Dragonplane would cease to exist, which is a Dragon civilization.

Dragonplane? Have the existence of this been confirmed into AQ3D? If not, well, I hardly see how that applies to this universe...

quote:

Why are humans dominant species in AE universe if Dragons have our level intelligence, are magical-blooded, don't require weapons cause Firebreathing Ex Machina, build nests, can create societies/alliances with other Dragons and can also speak?

Who said humans were the dominant species in the AQ3D version of Lore? We've only seen humans because our characters ARE humans. The universe is still in its (very) early stages of development, we cannot yet say humans are the dominant species. Even if they are in Greenguard, I say to myself: what a wonderful world *starts playing music* awaits us outside the borders of BattleOn and the little part of the world we've discovered.

***

If I can conclude with one sentence about dragons, it would be this: since they are imaginary creatures and there are so many different views about them (like the European and Asian conceptions of dragons that are very different!), there is nothing set in stone about them, so every universe creator has every possible right to reinvent the species as they see fit.

So AQ3D dragons might end up being very different from what we can expect from the classical fantasy conception of dragons.
Post #: 19
10/18/2015 6:13:08   
David the Wanderer
Legendary AK!


@LyRein:
quote:


I gave good explanations for those fantasy elements, because it's possible to do so.
So your point was...?

Dragons can be possible, in our world they just wouldn't be able to fly.


Actually, no. None of your explanations are going to work in the real world.
A being with the size and mass of a dragon wouldn't be able to fly. Increasing the wing area doesn't help, because that also increases the mass. We'd have to turn their bones hollow, like a bird's, and eliminate most of their muscles to make a dragon capable of flying, but this clashes with the idea that dragons are strong and resistant physically.
Inhaling gas and exhaling gas wouldn't make it flammable. The most "likely" way an animal could spit fire would be if they had a poison gland filled with a liquid that bursts into flame in contact with air, but that would damage the internal organs of the animal any time it's used.
Also, addendum: dragons have six limbs (four legs, two wings), which is something that no reptilian species on Earth ever had.

Basically, the "real world version" of a dragon would be a pterodatcyl, but that isn't even a dragon anymore.

quote:

He had an excuse though, in his time no-one really knew all too much about myths or bothered.

... Tolkien. John Ronald Reuel Tolkien didn't care about myths. The author of Beowulf: The Monsters and the Critics, which was the first work to actually recognize the literary value of England's first epic poem. Whose works on the restoration and adaptation of old (and Old) English poems set the academic standards for years to come. The man who created the concept of mythopoeia, and created a complete history to work as a setting for his fantasy works. The man whose reason to create the entire world of Middle-Earth and Arda was because he wanted to make an all-English mythology... Didn't care about myths.

Tolkien cared deeply about myths. He created them, knew them well, understood them. All the things you see in his works have roots in old myths. Tolkien didn't write to appease an audience; he wrote to create a world, a mythology, and that implies a deep knowledge of myths and literary devices. In Tolkien's works, dragons speak because that makes them much frightening: an intelligent being is much more dangerous than a mindless beast. Glaurung could cause greater suffering with words than with his claws.

Furthermore, my point was that in old myths, dragons did speak, and Tolkien knew that. My point was that when you said "Dragons speaking is unbelievable, but Tolkien is believable" you were wrong, because Tolkien's dragon do speak. Your reply makes no sense, but I wanted to correct you on what you said about about Tolkien.

quote:

Also I was referring to Elvish. Elves have a reason to be able to speak human tongue, yet if you placed both them and humans in the same room the only similarities would be their appearance (minus ears) and ancestors. Otherwise you wouldn't have known they are related.

Nowhere in your previous posts have you mentioned elves.

quote:

As for country border etc that comparison can't work if both species aren't human and have vastly different body structures.

My point wasn't country border. My point was that this is fantasy, and it takes acceptable breaks of reality to showcase what it wants. If you want to portray dragons as intelligent, they have to communicate. Since in a fantasy world we're already dealing with an incredible amount of physically and biologically impossible things, it makes no sense to selectively define "dragons speaking" an "unbelievable concept". There are an heap of reasons to decide to have non-speaking dragons, but saying it's "not realistic" is a pretty bad reason when you have people casting fireballs next to you. Fantasy, as a genre, always stretched the concept of "realistic", because it's not a genre that wants to portray a scientifically accurate world. If you try to make fantasy scientifically realistic, you destroy the whole concept of fantasy. Even Martin, who has been labelled as realistic, has used scientifically impossible concepts: people not being burnt by flames, dragons, the undead, a race of humanoid made of ice, resurrection, shadow-beings, magic...

< Message edited by David the Wanderer -- 10/18/2015 6:14:02 >
DF AQW  Post #: 20
10/18/2015 6:29:33   
Vypie
Member

I was thinking... MAYBE since dragons are so ancient compared to humans for example, they probably even witnessed the development of their language!

Since dragons are able to live for so long, and are probably more advanced, they would easily be able to learn such language. In the very least, they would be curious about these puny humans, and could try to communicate with them.
And if you think about it, they were there the whole time! They could even have influenced the language itself too, if they desired.

To replicate the sounds of words in those languages, dragons could do it like some birds do. They have mouth parts that can regulate the air with precision, allowing them to pronounce exact sounds, despite not even moving their beak at all.
Some birds are intelligent enough to learn what some words/expressions mean due to context, and use them at appropriate times. While they don't grasp the language, they also do not simply repeat random words. Learning a different species' language is incredibly difficult (humans haven't), but dragons would probably be able to do that.

Or, you could have dragons simply speak to other races telepathically. The voice would appear in your mind in a way you would understand. This could be by the use of magic, maybe.

Epic  Post #: 21
10/18/2015 8:19:19   
LyRein
Member

WALL OF TEXT:

quote:

A being with the size and mass of a dragon wouldn't be able to fly. Increasing the wing area doesn't help, because that also increases the mass. We'd have to turn their bones hollow, like a bird's, and eliminate most of their muscles to make a dragon capable of flying, but this clashes with the idea that dragons are strong and resistant physically.


That's why I said in a world with less limits, which is possible in reality since the universe is infinite.
Cutting up paper into pieces and dropping it would not land in perfect shape, however with infinite time it will eventually.

quote:

Inhaling gas and exhaling gas wouldn't make it flammable. The most "likely" way an animal could spit fire would be if they had a poison gland filled with a liquid that bursts into flame in contact with air, but that would damage the internal organs of the animal any time it's used.


That's what I meant really.
So it's possible but not worth it.

quote:

Tolkien cared deeply about myths.


That's what I said...

quote:

Nowhere in your previous posts have you mentioned elves.


No, but I used it as an example.

quote:

Dragons speaking is unbelievable, but Tolkien is believable


Yep! You answered it yourself (and repeated what I said). Tolkien loved mythology.
He felt people were forgetting english mythology as time went on, so that's one of the reasons he worldbuilt middle-earth.

Like I said before

quote:

He had an excuse though, in his time no-one really knew all too much about myths or bothered.


On to your next point

quote:

If you want to portray dragons as intelligent, they have to communicate


Why does communicate automatically mean human language?

quote:

define "dragons speaking" an "unbelievable concept"


No no you're getting me wrong.
I said Dragons speaking human tongue is unbelievable, not speaking in general.

quote:

Fantasy, as a genre, always stretched the concept of "realistic", because it's not a genre that wants to portray a scientifically accurate world. If you try to make fantasy scientifically realistic, you destroy the whole concept of fantasy. Even Martin, who has been labelled as realistic, has used scientifically impossible concepts: people not being burnt by flames, dragons, the undead, a race of humanoid made of ice, resurrection, shadow-beings, magic...


Right on, because then it would be sci-fi!

But your Martin knowledge is pretty nice.
Except...

Only once has someone survived burning,
Due to being the Mother of Dragons and those eggs being real ones.
Plus she's a targ, only targs can tame Dragons, and Dragons stick with one master till it dies then move on (balerion good example).

Martin's Dragons are realistic in the fact that: if they could exist what would they ACTUALLY be like?

Undead, you mean wights?
Yeah, I'm guessing along the lines of "Valar morghulis" and "Valar dohaeris"

Martin said we humans can't tell if there is a supernatural force like a god, so he includes them in his works but makes sure not to make them appear or be directly involved.
So all men must die, then serve.

Of course the whole idea of that is fantastical because we couldn't understand supernatural, but at least it's more immersive and believable.

As for the white walkers or others,

We have no idea what they really are, only what they aren't.

For all we know they could be children greenseers who wanted to become immortal or fight off the humans, so preformed ice magic because ice preserves.

Or just representations of what bad can happen when two completely different races meet for the first time.

Resseruction

Doesn't have a good explanation but still pretty believable.
Ties in with "unknown force of a god or something" I mentioned earlier.
This is basically wights but not so zombie like.

Shadow beings

No explanation but if fantasy doesn't have some stuff that are unrealistic then it's not fantasy.
Unless being a shadowmage is a good explanation.

Still more believable than talking dragons.

Magic

Which is uncommon in Planetos, which is realistic, because science and tech dominate when it comes to everyday life.
But there are a lot of unknown things in our world, that can be seen as magic.

Example...

The phantom pic in the church that was revealed to be by experts unedited or messed with.
Lourdes water.
Voodoo.
Crying Boy Photograph.

If you don't like me being paranoid then science is magic.
Things we don't understand about the universe will be magic till defined or reasoned.

Example...
fist of god in space
fox face in space
raspberry wine flow in space
dark flow at edge of solar system.

Basically loads of scary stuff.

quote:

In Tolkien's works, elves and humans do not share the same ancestors. Elves are the first Children of Ilúvatar, awoken thousands of years before the second Children, humans.


That's ancestor to me.

quote:

I agree with David on that point. In fact, we could even interpret the "English-speaking Dragons" the following way: not many humans are wise enough to learn the mighty Draconic language, while all dragons easily speak our puny mortal common tongue.


When does wisdom come into play...
First it was as smart as humans then it became smarter than humans, just to fit your post?

Anyone can learn any language.
If majority of people can't speak African Click languages then that means they're less wise?

quote:

Besides, looks at some fish species: the female lays thousands of eggs, and probably less than 0.1% of these eggs ever hatch.


True, but me and David already agreed that birth chance plays a factor..

quote:

Dragonplane? Have the existence of this been confirmed into AQ3D? If not, well, I hardly see how that applies to this universe...


Has the existence of elves been confirmed in AQ3D?
I hardly see how this applies to this universe.

Just kidding, but me and David were talking about Dragons in general and why they exist in AE universe if they don't interact.

quote:

Who said humans were the dominant species in the AQ3D version of Lore? We've only seen humans because our characters ARE humans.


Predictable.
In DF, where dragons are a heavy focus, humans dominate.
In AQW, where DF, AQ, MQ mashed together, humans dominate.

AQ3D will take inspiration by previous games and since it shares the same battleon as AQW we can assume other big cities exist and are populated with no attacks by monsters or dragons.

quote:

So AQ3D dragons might end up being very different from what we can expect from the classical fantasy conception of dragons.


It's not that I hate dragons speaking
I hate it when dragons speak without a good explanation to why, because it ruins immersion, which is the point of fantasy, escaping into another world.

quote:

Since dragons are able to live for so long, and are probably more advanced,


Hah no

quote:

they would easily be able to learn such language.


I'm sure every advanced empire was able to learn tribal languages because more advanced amirite.

quote:

And if you think about it, they were there the whole time!


But they didn't eat us in-case we started murdering them all as we got more advanced?

quote:

They could even have influenced the language itself too, if they desired.


Even though you just said they'd want to communicate with humans, implying humans already established language.
What would dragons gain by teaming with a weaker, lesser species that they could've ended in a week if they wanted to?

No-one could've matched them till humans advanced, then that's their fault for letting us advance, now we have a Dragonslayer team dedicated to killing dragons.

quote:

To replicate the sounds of words in those languages, dragons could do it like some birds do. They have mouth parts that can regulate the air with precision, allowing them to pronounce exact sounds, despite not even moving their beak at all.
Some birds are intelligent enough to learn what some words/expressions mean due to context, and use them at appropriate times. While they don't grasp the language, they also do not simply repeat random words. Learning a different species' language is incredibly difficult (humans haven't), but dragons would probably be able to do that.


Makes sense I guess
but if you teach bird words of our language(s) they still wouldn't be able to talk normally with another human or bird that can also speak human.

quote:

Or, you could have dragons simply speak to other races telepathically. The voice would appear in your mind in a way you would understand. This could be by the use of magic, maybe.


Another good explanation.
I like this idea.

Then they can get into your head and mess you up without having to fight.


< Message edited by LyRein -- 10/18/2015 8:20:57 >
Post #: 22
10/18/2015 9:58:40   
David the Wanderer
Legendary AK!


quote:

quote:

Tolkien cared deeply about myths.

That's what I said...


No you didn't. You never said "Tolkien cared deeply about myths", or any variation of that phrase.

quote:

quote:

Dragons speaking is unbelievable, but Tolkien is believable

Yep! You answered it yourself (and repeated what I said). Tolkien loved mythology.
He felt people were forgetting english mythology as time went on, so that's one of the reasons he worldbuilt middle-earth.


Nope. I was quoting you. And, as I said, Tolkien's dragons DO speak English. So, if Tolkien is believable, so are dragons speaking English. If dragons speaking English is unbelievable, so is Tolkien.

quote:

Only once has someone survived burning,
Due to being the Mother of Dragons and those eggs being real ones.
Plus she's a targ, only targs can tame Dragons, and Dragons stick with one master till it dies then move on (balerion good example).


Still doesn't change the fact that it is scientifically impossible, and therefore unbelievable.

quote:

Undead, you mean wights?
Yeah, I'm guessing along the lines of "Valar morghulis" and "Valar dohaeris"

Martin said we humans can't tell if there is a supernatural force like a god, so he includes them in his works but makes sure not to make them appear or be directly involved.
So all men must die, then serve.

Of course the whole idea of that is fantastical because we couldn't understand supernatural, but at least it's more immersive and believable.


Without getting in a discussion about personal belief, why, at a narrative level, "Maybe, possibly, a divine being is involved" is more believable "Because magic"? "Dragons can speak English because magic" is as good as an explanation as "Undead exists because mysterious, possibly divine, forces are involved". Fantasy stories are full of non-humanoid beings speaking human language. It's a staple of the genre.

As a last note: Unbelievable isn't bad. The Force isn't scientifically possible. It's impossible for a painting to stop a man from ageing. It's ridicolous to think that a ring could brainwash people. Does that make the stories that feature these elements (Star Wars, The Picture of Dorian Gray, Lord of the Rings) bad stories? No. Sometimes, stories have elements that make no sense when we look at them, but if they make sense in-universe, it's ok. In the DF Lore, dragons can speak English; if nobody finds it weird, then it's obvious it's normal for dragons to do so. Immersion is also about immersing yourself in the same mindset of the characters of that story.
Most people can't explain why, exactly the sky is blue, but they know it is like that. If an alien from a planet with a differently-coloured sky would land on Earth, he'd find the blue sky weird, but only because on his world the idea of the sky being blue is considered ludicrous. Not on our world, though.

< Message edited by David the Wanderer -- 10/18/2015 9:59:55 >
DF AQW  Post #: 23
10/18/2015 10:55:25   
Vypie
Member

@LyRein
By advanced, I meant that they would probably have a greater knowledge of the world, possibly having already witnessed 'lesser' races developing culture/language from the start. (Easier than discovering an already fully complex language).
By advanced, I also really mean on a completely different level species-wise. A human empire is on the same level of a tribe, in this case. Just different cultures. Humans have been able to learn other culture's languages, but not languages from other species of animals.
(The idea of them having influenced language was an unrelated theory. Simply another way it could have happened).

What would dragons gain from other lesser races?
Well, with intelligence comes curiosity. While they would probably not "team up" with humans, they could try to manipulate them, study them. Maybe humans were interesting enough, despite being 'weak'.
Just because they could "end them in a week if they wanted to", it doesn't mean that's what should have happened.

We, humans, in THIS world, have the power to eradicate plenty of species, should we decide to. Do we do it? No. But we can, so why not? Because its not worth it. But there are animals that are advanced enough to eat us and attack us, so it would be a good idea, no? No, its too much work, and would disrupt the balance of nature.

Sure, eventually humans would eventually develop enough to be able to pose a threat. But that doesn't mean you should destroy an entire race.
But why did this happen? In another place and time, maybe dragons would become revered by humans as godly beings.
In this case, it was probably the dragon's fault for underestimating the unexpectedly resourceful humans. Some dragons may have wanted to take advantage from humans, relying on their own power, blinded by their superiority. But humans are known to learn quickly in their short lives, and they usually do anything it takes to survive. Even if that means specializing in dragon killing.
Other more knowledgeable dragons wouldn't have made that mistake, though. Humans can get pretty vengeful. :P

< Message edited by Vypie -- 10/18/2015 23:57:58 >
Epic  Post #: 24
10/18/2015 11:16:22   
  Ultrapowerpie

Mail Moogle of AdventureQuest


Just a friendly reminder to keep things civil. So far nothing is wrong, but discussions like this tend to get heated.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 25
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