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Avoiding universal wars.

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12/17/2015 12:40:55   
LyRein
Member

Recently there was a lot of heated arguments over @DF about the timelines and why using AQW (which resembles DF the closest) Lore to fill in the gaps of DF's wouldn't work.

I'm not expecting this issue to not arise again on this forum.
To avoid this, why don't the staff just agree on a set Lore for AQ3D that uses AQW as a past?

Before you say it, I know this is a remake of AQ. However they've only shown us that through the art.
They didn't say it had anything to do with the story overall.

Making this game a separate timeline just for the sake of having certain villains alive again is a bad excuse.
Reusing Seppy over and over again will eventually get boring. We get it. He's a dark evil wizard knight undead thing that can cause utter destruction and wants to destroy Swordhaven with his undead army.

I don't see why Vaxen should play a major role if he has NO BACKSTORY at ALL.
However if AQW decides to develop his character more, you'll already have a backstory to work with.

AE lore has always been so inconsistent because of this separate timeline not connected to other games at all mentality.
You are NOT limited to creating new worlds just because it's connected to a previous game. We cannot have a proper discussion about Lore or even be interested if the staff themselves don't actually work on the worldbuilding part of the game.

If you disagree(probably)/agree(probably not) tell me why and if you have other suggestions regarding this you can also write them down too

Discuss!
Post #: 1
12/17/2015 13:05:49   
speedmeteor101
Member

Actually we don't know the plot at all yet, so I wouldn't deem it safe to say that this is a continuation of AQW's timeline. And to my knowledge they planning on reusing and propagating the lesser important villains: that means we can't count on seeing the return of sepulchure, and villains like Carnax and the Gog will only be part of side quests and probably not play a real role at all.

With that being said I only know that the main villain is gonna be "Grimsbane" an nothing else about him. As far a Vaxen goes, they are planning, I believe, to create the missing back story he never had or make him a more important character.... which may in-turn allow them to focus on the the back story of the events surrounding his creation or could even make up a backstory that you wouldn't have known from playing AQW.... in fact, a separate timeline allows for the shallow characters to get deeper back stories and such.... kinda like how marvel gave spider man like 18 different universes and /or forms of him to show many points of view on "spider superpowers" i guess. Tbh i don't know that much about the marvel's case but i did know that much to give you a reference... hope i gave you a good enough explanation.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 2
12/17/2015 13:29:08   
LyRein
Member

Grimsbane is the most generic sounding villain ever.
I bet he's going to be like Artix personality and thought-wise.

well i've already given up hope on the story.

they could've just used a real life powerful medieval name and added extra vowels on to it.
Post #: 3
12/17/2015 13:50:54   
speedmeteor101
Member

I guess that is more of a personal thing, the name, but yeah, that's the pretty much it.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 4
12/17/2015 14:24:49   
Rlogg
Member

One question when was vaxen confirmed to play a major role , they havent reveled anything concerning the plot and they never said grimsbane would play an important role either.
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 5
12/17/2015 14:26:38   
David the Wanderer
Legendary AK!


 You do realize Vaxen having no backstory yet makes him the perfect villain to work with? He's brand new, and so the dev team can do anything they want with him. He's not an established villain, and thus allows great creative freedom.

On the separate timelines thing: That is done as not to force users to go and play another game to understand what's going on, or having the various dev teams stepping on each other's toes (Dev A: "Hey, I was planning to do X to character Y" Dev B: "You can't! I am going to user her in a future storyline, and X would wreck my plans!"). AE Lore isn't inconsistent: there are different timelines, or alternate universes, and they are consistent internally. We can speculate about lore and history all we want using what we are given inside the specific games one is talking about (there are even some things that are considered "Pan-Lore", like the existence of Elemental Lords or Akriloth being the Great Fire Dragon, although particulars tend to vary), you just can't expect people to agree on evidence coming from a separate game (basically, if X is true in Game Z, it's not necessarily true in Game Y).
DF AQW  Post #: 6
12/17/2015 14:34:29   
speedmeteor101
Member

@Rlogg Artix did say (although it may have changed since it was 5 months ago) that the main villain was planned to be Grimsbane on an artix.com post (if u wanna check i don't have time to, but it was on the same post as the one about the living 3 headed aqw dungeon). I also heard him referenced again (though not his role) which leads me to believe that they 1. have not either completely decided or 2. haven't really put much thought to it and haven't changed their minds yet. And you're right, we know nothing of the plot. We're just using our common sense to make educated guesses on what they may be doing. That's basically what this post is asking us to do, I believe.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 7
12/17/2015 14:38:54   
LyRein
Member

@david

it already is confusing.
they have the same theme,setting,characters in all 3 games (aqdfaqw) but say they aren't related then have a lot of related story things.

Vaxen if you've seen him in AQW (which you haven't played a lot i remember) is basically a mindless minion.

mindless
MINION.

who blew up his masters for no reason
but obeys another guy because.... reasons.

you cannot give this man a good backstory
he was literally formed from magic.
Post #: 8
12/17/2015 14:42:11   
speedmeteor101
Member

That seems more like you're only hating on the character. That means you can add a backstory on the master and create one for Vaxen's rage that was uncalled for (hey! death cutscene opportunity!!) Keep in mind this isn't Vaxenfrom aqw, but a Vaxen inspired by the aqw one.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 9
12/17/2015 14:44:54   
Rlogg
Member

@speedmeteor101 i think you may be right about grimsbane he's even mentioned on their kickstarter page although i hope they make someone new for this game


< Message edited by Rlogg -- 12/17/2015 14:52:51 >
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 10
12/17/2015 14:53:05   
David the Wanderer
Legendary AK!


 @LyRein: It's not confusing. Alternate timelines imply there are some similarities, and therefore ARE related in some way (there exists, theoretically, a single "prime" timeline from which all the other sprang), but since they are SEPARATE every game is free to make its own characters and stories. There will be some common themes and characters, yes, but DF Safiria is different from AQW Safiria or AQc Safiria.
DF AQW  Post #: 11
12/17/2015 14:54:34   
LyRein
Member

quote:

Keep in mind this isn't Vaxenfrom aqw, but a Vaxen inspired by the aqw one.


Everyone who crossed games remained the same personality wise.

why would Vaxen be different.
i'm sure the backstory would be different but he would still be a mindless minion because that's how he was written.

i'm not hating on Vaxen (you can't hate something that has no redeeming factors anyways).
even you would agree if you saw his character

@David

they aren't alternate timelines though, they're multiverses that for some reason are extremely similar but staff say they aren't.
you are more familar with DF and me AQW so you will naturally use DF lore when writing about the timelines and me AQW.

that's the problem.
why make Seppy adopt a kid but have her be the biological one in another game? it's unnecessary confusion.

< Message edited by LyRein -- 12/17/2015 14:57:00 >
Post #: 12
12/17/2015 15:01:42   
David the Wanderer
Legendary AK!


 But AQW is the ONE game that explicitly states it IS an alternate timeline. In fact, the best explanation of the different timelines is given in The Span: "Three different timelines/universes, although similar (AQ/DF/MQ), plus a fourth one that originates from a merge of the original three"

Again, different games mean slightly different characters. Sepulchure adopted Gravelyn in DF because that fits better with what the DF writers want to do with her in their game.
DF AQW  Post #: 13
12/17/2015 15:03:09   
speedmeteor101
Member

@LyRein Possibly

But going off of what Cysero says, the antagonists are free to evolve. And the only reason these characters remained the same is cuz the staff wanted them to. That's like 3 kids at a school were bullied and wrote wrote "the 3 little pigs and the big bad wolf." Well, hat story got boring. So 3 years later, they keep themselves as the 3 little pigs and keep the wolf... still mean and stuff.... but this time we throw in that he only hunted the pigs after a hunter tried to kill him. Boom same mean old wolf. Before, he came out of no where. 2nd time, added that he had a reason to go : because the hunter was trying to kill him and HIS FOOD! XD XP just a reference.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 14
12/17/2015 15:05:39   
LyRein
Member

@David

See, it's not working.
In AQW it says that.

If I used that as a way to simplify DF, AQ or MQ timelines I would get backlash as it's not "apart of the game's lore".

That is the problem.

I don't see how adopting a child fits a story better than having her as a biological kid since it plays no significant role in DF.


< Message edited by LyRein -- 12/17/2015 15:06:17 >
Post #: 15
12/17/2015 15:11:24   
speedmeteor101
Member

WWell obviously... If he adopted her, he would be human by emotion; but if not- well, that suit must be more of an animal

Okey, just a joke above. I was referencing a debate in another thread about the suit having control of sepulchure and taking complete control. I think it's with u guys at least. And I guess he was just reaching for evidence and pulled the wrong piece of evidence out of the bag. @LyRein still, you get his point, right?
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 16
12/17/2015 15:14:49   
Rezilia
Member

quote:

That is done as not to force users to go and play another game to understand what's going on


Yet that's exactly what happens, because each game is made expecting that the players have played other games and know the lore. This is why I'm so angry that AE is going to use Lore all over again. It's a chance for a new start, and we're ruining it by having Battleon, Vaxen, Great Elemental Dragons, and a bunch of other nonsense.

And then, when we fans who have played those other games and who know the lore complain about randomly inserted inconsistencies, we're told to forget everything we knew because "it's a separate timeline" - which makes absolutely no sense when new content goes against previously established canon timeline interactions. The whole thing with the multi-game EbilCorp invasion made me puke. It's like everyone just stopped trying.

AQ3D should just be stated to not be connected to other games at all, not even be in a separate timeline, not be in the same multiverse, and have absolutely no crossovers whatsoever.
DF AQW  Post #: 17
12/17/2015 15:15:50   
David the Wanderer
Legendary AK!


 @LyRein: In that specific part of the storyline, AQW isn't saying anything that conflicts with the lore of other games. Players of AQ, DF and MQ have always agreed each game happens in a different timeline.

The fact AQW is the result of the death of the EDoT is part of its own lore and isn't contested.
DF AQW  Post #: 18
12/17/2015 15:21:47   
LyRein
Member

@above

It can't be a separate timeline as Tomix tells me there's only one DF timeline that was never branched off.
Yet AQW is the result of timelines mixing.

Artix gave the best explanation that allowed freedom to create whatever the game needed but the staff changed it for no real reason.

Lore is too inconsistent because staffs of each game aren't really connected and if they do know the lore of other games they change it for the sake of being different.
Post #: 19
12/17/2015 15:28:43   
David the Wanderer
Legendary AK!


 @LyRein: One: It's not Tomix who came up with the separate timelines idea. That has been going on for a long time before he was part of the team. Two: As CEO of AE, Artix approved of the separate timelines idea, so it's not like the devs did this without Artix approval.

Also, I was in the thread where you were told that: You said the prime DF timeline lead to AQW, and the staff simply told you it wasn't true. While AQW's timeline APPEARS similar DF, it's not branched off from it (as evidenced by the completely different locations of places). AQW is the result of timelines mixing, yes, but that mix didn't mark the end of other timelines.
DF AQW  Post #: 20
12/17/2015 15:32:00   
speedmeteor101
Member

Guy's the best way is it's like multiple people are making different tv shows using the same actors and characters and settings but using different plots. In fact that's exactly what it is, but with games. [Unless you have some underlying desire for the games to all be connected,] It's not that hard to digest. Just know that the protagonists represent real people so they don't change and that some villain's are recycled too. Let the game be the game and have it's own lore. Don't let the company be the game and it's own lore.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong (I may be), but Artix recently compared it to Dr. Who. I haven't personally watched it myself, but it was explained well and works, I feel..
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 21
12/17/2015 15:34:18   
Rezilia
Member

From what I heard, it was intended to be canon that Galanoth would slay the Time Dragon during Warpforce, but that didn't happen since WF got shut down. So we actually have no canon in other games that leads to AQW happening.
DF AQW  Post #: 22
12/17/2015 15:38:01   
Rlogg
Member

Actually in aqw (in the span saga i think) it was stated that before the mixing of timelines it was still a different timeline from the three.
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 23
12/17/2015 15:54:55   
LyRein
Member

@David

I didn't say tomix came up with that idea...
like where did i ever say that...

on topic about the primal timeline...

i said the prime DF timeline was branched off. one because of phone-booth incident, and one where we weren't frozen in ice during booking 3.

i said one of those timelines was mixed into AQW not that the primal timeline is AQW...
i was trying to make it work you see


< Message edited by LyRein -- 12/17/2015 16:07:06 >
Post #: 24
12/17/2015 16:16:40   
geopetal
Member

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Many-worlds_interpretation
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiverse
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_versions_of_Batman
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martha_Wayne#Flashpoint
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiverse_(Marvel_Comics)
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Franchise/ArrowVerse
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turn_Left_(Doctor_Who)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternate_history
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternate_history#Video_games
Post #: 25
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