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Verlyrus
Post Cat

The Thorns Saga: Epilogue: Loose Ends

Hey there, heroes!

With last week's stunning finale to the Thorns Saga, this week, we've prepared an epilogue to tie up any loose ends, and perhaps give you a glimpse into this story's effects on the world of Lore as a whole!

Theano's plans have been crushed, but at what cost? And what happened to Belle?



Head over to Ash in Book 3 Faclonreach to find your answers in this week's release: Epilogue: Loose Ends.

As a quick update, look forward to more main story (Book 3, The End of Magic) next week, as well as Chaosweaver (Coming soon)! We're hard at work getting all of this content out, so please enjoy and look forward to what's to come!

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Tags: Verlyrus

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So does The Thorns take place before or after Jaania's visit to the Fissure? Judging by her attitude, it seems to be after.

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The Book 3 Timeline says this all started before the Gala, but I'm not sure where it's ending.

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I really liked the way Jaania was written here; her indifference towards Belle's supposed fate and complete lack of mercy for Theano serve to remind us that, despite her good intentions, she is still the villain of the story. Her callousness towards the news of Belle's "death" and willingness to additionally torture the defenseless and miserable Theano are not actions that the protagonist or any other heroic character would undertake in her position. Though she seeks altruistic goals, Jaania is in no way an altruistic person; it's subtle details like this that reinforce the parallel between her characterization and her role in the story as an antihero. I love it.

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Jeez. Theano was horrible, but seeing what Jaania did just gave me that thought that what she did was undeniably cruel to a man who'd undergone already severe punishment for his actions, one that was nothing short of torture. Worse villains in this series had undergone far less punishment for way worse actions.

It felt less like a punishment for his actions and more like a sleight for what his actions did to her.

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Oh yeah, I definitely enjoyed Theano's punishment, probably more than I should but meh. To forever be trapped within himself, to never be able to feel, hear, see, or speak anything ever again with his only "companion" being an ever silent fragment of Death to watch him and only his thoughts, of what little they might achieve, to comfort him talk about solitary confinement. I imagine this torment will clearly drive him insane, or more insane than he was anyway, but I do wonder that now that he's in this state will he eventually think about what got in him to this moment? I've seen characters trapped all by themselves and alone for eternity with them either thinking only of revenge or death, but one thing I rarely see is a character to feel an ounce of regret or reflect where they went wrong, well morally anyway. So with all the time, he's like this will he actually become insane enough to at one point perhaps really look upon his actions with regret and be truly sorry even if only a little for what he did? Probably unlikely but it's nice to think about.

In the case of Jaania, well all I can say is we might have just committed an oopsie by getting Jaania to rethink her plans into something that will better neutralize the mana core. My biggest concern is when she made note of the "vessel" having been overloaded. Now I'm not saying Jaania would use some poor soul to do whatever she's rethinking with core although I'm suspecting she might attempt to use herself to do it and that might end of being a whole problem in of itself.

In any event, I do like the idea that while Belle's body was perfectly capable of using an incredible amount of mana that's not the same thing as her spirit being able to handle all that power and would quite literally have lost herself, and Vitael, in order to use mana weaving. Which makes me wonder about two things, one if her soul was destroyed would she no longer have been able to mana weave after that? Sort of like a glass cannon effect? Or if she found another soul ally and spirit looms to use would she able to do it again? Also given the dangers and just overall power regarding mana weaving would this make the art forbidden even despite the rare circumstances need to take place to use the ability?

< Message edited by Vaalirus -- 8/16/2019 22:14:42 >

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Seems like Belle assumed the mana form that Roirr did in the First Weaver, differences being, it was only temporary. Roirr could've kept going, had it not been by Baltael and Danyel. And Theano is finally... screwed. IMO, he deserves such a level of punishment, considering what his own ambitions lead him to do. Jaania still being as cold-blooded, as ever, no surprises there. I think the Hero doesn't quite understand herself and her goals entirely. They've scratched but the surface of the iceberg.

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on the other hand, us lying about Belle's death might end up setting Jaania on the wrong track entirely, although that's its own can of worms.

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I want to preface this that I did enjoy, and have fun, playing through this saga. I have my misgivings which will be outlined, but I do not find this to be a bad storyline by any means.

It was great to see some old faces that we'd not encountered since before we were frozen, but I did find it strange that not much was really made of these reunions. Galanoth for example, mentions a letter he sent, but no such letter actually exists (despite Ash still having the obsolete "Letters" function) and so we're just sort of dropped into this storyline with no explanation.

Warlic is the more confusing one though, as presumably we would have a lot of questions, such as why did he leave us frozen when he and Xan are walking around just fine. I thought it was odd that the player doesn't treat meeting him as a big deal at all, even though I can't recall us making contact with him prior to this storyline.

That said the addition of a subgroup in The Rose was welcome, as thus far despite their apparent inexplicable power, we've yet to see any truly powerful or unique Rose individuals. Theano's effectiveness is limited by what I think is a recurring problem though, and that is the brevity of this storyline. What sets him apart is how casually he murders those around him, but since the scope of this is never really given a chance to set in, he does not make the impression that a similarly corrupt villain like Sek-Duat does. I did not find Theano particularly interesting as he has no real relatable motives (admitting he does what he does "for fun", much like another poorly received villain, Valtrith). The addition of his family gives us a nice look at Azaveyran life (though I'm still on the fence as to whether Theano feels like he really was from there) but is again, sort of nulled by his admitted sociopathy.

Villains do not have to be sympathetic or relatable, but I did find Theano to have much else going for him to make me like him for any other reason. He simply kills, that's about all there is to him. Ironically, I thought that he would now be much more interesting without his arms, as it would force him to evolve as a character in relation to the change in his status quo, but Jaania had other ideas...to be fair, they were justified.

Belle is likable and while I think the shortness of the chain mitigated the impact of the reveal that she was Theano's daughter, the use of his messings with the Ignominious that granted her powers was a fantastic explanation. It was a very fulfilling way to introduce a new level of power without it feeling like it was pulled from thin air for the sake of introducing it, it really meshed with the setting and I appreciate that.

One thing that concerns me about this, and other sagas (Sulen'Eska especially), is the perspective of characters we are meant to trust attempting to reassure us that Jaania is actually not bad and The Rose is out of control. This is one thing if we are merely meant to see a wide variety of perspectives on a complex character, but it veers into dangerous territory when someone like Kara or Belle seem to convince the player of this, because the evidence in-game contradicts this. Jaania has been aware of The Rose enslaving people, one of the worst atrocities that unfortunately mirrors real history all too well. As a player of African-American descent especially, having protagonists forgive Jaania for this (Belle is even in the Vind, so she should be aware) definitely causes me to raise an eyebrow.

Jaania's own actions show that she is not concerned with the lives of people (recent conflict with Magus Hansa emphasizes this) and is only really concerned with being seen as a Hero. I think this is a great spin on the character, the Gala having her snap in such a way was perhaps her best moment in this entire storyline. It gives Jaania a plausible flaw that would allow her to accept ethical violations for the sake of what she sees as the greater good. This falls apart when other people who do not share this flawed mindset corroborate what she says. In any case I am glad the writing team had Hansa stand her ground, as this will provide further conflict and development in the future (I hope).

The epilogue was a nice wrap-up. I certainly can't say Theano didn't get what he deserved, but I almost hope to see how he reacts or adapts to his new situation in the future. While we may never see him again, he now has potential to become someone really interesting, which I think he lacked before. Belle was not really given much time to shine, but given the enormous implications of her powers there is no doubt we'll see her again, and I look forward to that.

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The Book 3 Timeline says this all started before the Gala, but I'm not sure where it's ending.

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The ending has been added to the Timeline, if you'd like to check out where it falls.

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if her soul was destroyed would she no longer have been able to mana weave after that?

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She would not be able to function at all, on account of not having a soul.

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One thing that concerns me about this, and other sagas (Sulen'Eska especially), is the perspective of characters we are meant to trust attempting to reassure us that Jaania is actually not bad and The Rose is out of control. This is one thing if we are merely meant to see a wide variety of perspectives on a complex character, but it veers into dangerous territory when someone like Kara or Belle seem to convince the player of this, because the evidence in-game contradicts this. Jaania has been aware of The Rose enslaving people, one of the worst atrocities that unfortunately mirrors real history all too well. As a player of African-American descent especially, having protagonists forgive Jaania for this (Belle is even in the Vind, so she should be aware) definitely causes me to raise an eyebrow.

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We've tried to craft the timeline and these stories so that as a whole, it can be understood how the hero's view of Jaania changes over time. Obviously, because we end up releasing stories out of order, it can be very unintuitive, if not downright confusing as to the hero's attitudes toward Jaania.

For example, you do get to see the Hero finally "snap" at Jaania during the Gala- the Thorns ending in particular occurs relatively close to that, after all of these allies saying, "No, Jaania is a good person, really." While in the Thorns saga, you get to see just how out of touch she is with her own organization. This is after wars with the Vind, Jaania's offer of aid to Falconreach during the ending of the "Calamity", etc., as well as after meeting her in person during "Timelines".

Jaania herself also has a shift from when you meet her in Timelines, to how she is shown after the Gala. While part of this is perhaps due to a change in writers, we've also tried to establish the reasoning for this change through breadcrumbs- for example, this Epilogue hints at the cause of some of her future reactions to certain events, while she is certainly less magnanimous with offering the aid of the Rose in "A Petal Falls" compared to "Calamity"'s epilogue. I hope we've managed to string enough together that an understanding can be formed of how these characters change and evolve with the events of the timeline, but I do completely understand that it's often not clear, not to mention there are still stories in progress that help shape events we've already seen in game.

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Warlic is the more confusing one though, as presumably we would have a lot of questions, such as why did he leave us frozen when he and Xan are walking around just fine. I thought it was odd that the player doesn't treat meeting him as a big deal at all, even though I can't recall us making contact with him prior to this storyline.

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I'm not saying it's handled the most satisfactorily, but the Hero does first meet back up with Warlic earlier, near the end of Calamity, which occurs before the Thorns saga.

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So did we magic sealed the location of where Theano did the ritual along with the Rose dropping down chains? Just in case the other evil decided to rearrange and add more magic incantations to summon something while we're down for the count and destroy gets blocked?

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The scroll that Theano used was part of the spell, and was consumed. The ritual circle itself is inert without the scroll, and it can be assumed that the Rose cleaned up afterwards in their investigation... Or did they? (In other words, no, the ritual location itself is no longer a threat)

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So for the most part, I think Jaania's development is pretty believable. She herself is meant to be flawed and a bit radical, which I enjoy. It makes The Rose having the flaws it does seem more believable as well. It's really many other key characters' perspectives of her that I find fault with, but even then it's moreso "are we supposed to believe them about this?" rather than the character holding that perspective. Jaania is certainly out of touch, but the Sulen'Eska saga made it pretty clear she was aware of the slavery going on, and didn't really do anything about it. You did cite different writers though, so that may be a moot point at this juncture. Despite my citation of Hansa's recent interactions, she had a blink and you'll miss it line about The Rose attacking Atrea (which is essentially assaulting refugees on no actual grounds), so I guess the fallibility really is a part of all aspects of The Rose, even those the hero has come to alignment with. I do look forward to all these things coming to a head, there's a greater deal of characters' personal investments and perspectives colliding in this storyline than there have been in the past.

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You did cite different writers though, so that may be a moot point at this juncture

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Warlic is the more confusing one though, as presumably we would have a lot of questions, such as why did he leave us frozen when he and Xan are walking around just fine.