The Problem with the War Armor's Mayhem Skill and How It Can Be Improved


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The Problem with the War Armor's Mayhem Skill and How It Can Be Improved

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10/12/2019 15:28:09

Lord Tenebros
Member

The Burning Solstice saga has come to its conclusion, and one of the biggest rewards to come out of the saga was the War’s Legacy/Ascendant armor. An armor that is the culmination of our ascension as the new War.

And while I immensely enjoyed slaughtering the many mobs in the latest questline as War Undeniable, as someone who has played the game for a long time, I can’t help but feel concerned that, compared to other options that are either locked behind Ultra-Rare GGBs or are Limited Availablity/Rare, the War armor is actually somewhat lacking compared to those options.
Specifically, I’m talking about the Mayhem skill.

The War armor has three skills, which is one of the reasons why it’s so expensive. And while I am positively loaded with gold and will not have economic problems in the near future, many other players do not have the same reserves that I and others do, and it’s important that the equipment we buy in shops is worth the cost, ESPECIALLY when it’s as expensive as the War armor.
Carnage is a respectable Fire nuke that is proficient in dealing with mobs that are weak or even normal resist to Fire. Panic has a rather unique approach to inflicting Fear in that it is completely free in terms of SP but costs a turn (the reverse of the Werewolf subrace’s Fear), and also targets those vulnerable to Fire resist. One could debate over whether Quickcast + SP cost is better than free SP + using a turn, but I can certainly respect the alternate approach the staff took regarding the Panic spell.

However, I honestly feel as though the Mayhem skill is weak and unimpressive, to the point that it may as well not exist.

The Mayhem skill is a Spell-based skill that, in exchange for not having any Ele-comp bonus, allows one to unleash the skill with the same element as the Weapon that the player is currently holding. However, on closer inspection and ESPECIALLY in comparison to other FO fire armors, these traits provide only insignificant advantages at best and only serve to render the spell completely inferior to skills by other armors.

The first, biggest reason, and one that is WELL known by the AQ community as a whole, is the skill’s Spell-based nature. The fact that the Mayhem skill is Spell-based means that it cannot take advantage of Chieftain’s Ironthorn or many of the better Imbue options (Dragonslayer aura, Terror Fist), rendering its damage inferior compared to the meta armors of today. The reason why the top armors of today’s meta like White Knight Z, Angel of Souls, the Bloodzerker armors, and even the subrace armors are so powerful is because all of them, especially those with skills, can fully take advantage of Chieftain’s Ironthorn’s MULTIPLICATIVE 1.5x boost, a boost from a shield that is easily accessible by any player in the game.

By contrast, Spell-based skills do NOT have such a powerful boost accessible to them. The best options they have are the Arcane Cutlasses, additive 30% boosts to specific Elements (Fire and Light) that are both locked behind UR GGBs. The next best option for Spell-based skills are the Magestaves, which provide a mere 9% boost, which is frankly pathetic in comparison to Chieftain’s Ironthorn’s 1.5x. The sheer discrepancy between the power of Weapon-based skills and Spell-based skills is immense, and the fact that the Mayhem skill falls under the latter category means that it by its very nature will be inferior compared to the skills of other FO armors.

The second reason why the Mayhem skill is comparatively underpowered is because the advantage of hitting your enemy with any element you choose is insignificant in comparison to other armor’s skills. While in theory you will be able to target an enemy’s elemental weakness at will while in the War armor (eg hitting a Fire enemy with an Ice skill despite War being a Fire armor), in practice, this advantage is inferior to other armor skills, whose own weaknesses can be circumvented in ways that the lack of damage from Mayhem’s skill cannot. Blazing Bloodzerker, for example, grants a DOUBLE boost to Weapon damage that only costs 197 SP and is freely toggleable, which can be further taken advantage of with the four-strike SP skill of Bloodstained Morningstar Cross. Using all elements of this combo costs 491 SP, which is only 106 SP more than Mayhem with a much higher payoff. The only downside of this ability is the lock to Fire element, which is easily circumvented with the many Imbue spells currently available. Another significant example is the recently released Torontosaurus Rex, another FO Fire armor with a skill that does 1.5x increased damage in exchange for a higher SP cost, a cost that is rendered completely inconsequential due to Essence Orb (whose only drawback of costing HP can itself be offset through many different ways). Even other armors without elecomp, like Angel of Souls, have much more worthwhile benefits such as a miniscule HP cost that is practically free to pay even for builds with 0 END and no mana shields. Not to mention the fact that all of these cases are Weapon-based skills, meaning that they benefit from Chieftain’s Ironthorn while Mayhem’s skill cannot.

Finally, and this is more of a gripe than a genuine weakness necessarily, but the Mayhem Skill does not really benefit the functionality of the armor in a significant manner. Carnage and Panic each have their uses in destroying Fire-weak mobs and causing Fear based on Fire resistance, but if the Mayhem skill was removed I honestly would not notice a significant difference. Though I do not have hard numbers to back this up, whenever I used the Mayhem skill I barely noticed a significant difference between using Mayhem and using the War armor’s basic attack, while I found uses for Carnage and Panic. Even if there was a difference (and from what I’m aware it only does 1.5x the damage of a normal attack), it certainly was not enough to justify using 385 SP for it. The Mayhem skill’s only purpose is to do damage, and it fails to properly accomplish this goal in comparison to many of the best FO armors in the game, and even in comparison to the Carnage skill.

The War armor may have three skills, but having one skill that accomplishes a great deal is much more valuable than having three skills that are merely “good” or, in the case of the Mayhem skill, flat-out mediocre. Considering the massive investment and excitement that went into the Burning Solstice saga both by the staff and the playerbase, and the significance that the War armor represents for the Chosen, it would be a massive shame for the War armor to simply be tossed aside because it was inferior to the options already available.

TL;DR: (1) Mayhem is Spell-based instead of Weapon-based, already making it inherently inferior, (2) skill advantage of using element of choice is inconsequential compared to things like WKZ elecomp, Toronto 1.5x damage, fire subrace versatility, and AoS’ nonexistent HP cost, and (3) the skill doesn’t do anything outside of damage and doesn’t do that very well.

With that being said, it’s one thing to identify a flaw, and it’s another thing to correct that flaw. And I have prepared some solutions (in order of preference) to improve the Mayhem skill that I believe will bring the War armor’s Mayhem skill closer in line to armor skills that are considered some of the best in the game, or at the very least give players a reason to use the War armor instead of the other FO fire armors that currently overshadow it.

Solution 1: Make the Mayhem skill Weapon-based.

This is arguably the simplest and most obvious solution, and one that I'm sure that many others would agree with. While I understand that many of the older armors have Weapon-based skills and that they are slowly being phased out, the fact that the most recent armor, Torontosaurus Rex, has its most powerful damage-based skill as Weapon-based demonstrates that Weapon-based skills are very much still being put into effect in modern AQ. Making the Mayhem skill Weapon-based would allow it to also take advantage of Chieftain’s Ironthorn, narrowing the considerable gap between its damage output and the damage output of other Weapon-based skills. As stated before, a spell-based skill that only does damage is strictly inferior to a weapon-based skill thanks to Chieftain’s Ironthorn and the latter’s ability to take advantage of Imbue abilities like Fire Dragon Talon, Dragonslayer Aura, and Terror Fist.

And thematically, it makes sense for the Mayhem skill to be Weapon-based. The War armor uses his sword to tear open the fabric of reality and summon many medieval weapons to attack the foe simultaneously, using the exact same element as the player’s weapon. If ANY skill deserves to be Weapon-based, it is the Mayhem skill. It certainly makes more sense than a Weapon-based skill like, say, Angel of Souls’ “Time to Burn”, which summons blasts of darkness from within the arms of the cloak.

Solution 2: Give the Mayhem skill a new functionality to compensate for the inferior damage.

Another solution to improve the Mayhem skill is to give it a new feature to compensate for its comparable lack of damage. Since the War armor can already inflict status through Panic, a different and novel option would be for the Mayhem skill to give a Self-Buff status to the player upon using it.

An idea that I and others (including Cray) have discussed on Discord is for the Mayhem skill to give a “Berserk” status to the player similar to the Grakma Warhorn, renamed to better fit the theme of War Undeniable (such as “Ascendant’s Fury”, “Rider’s Wrath”, etc.). Thematically, this would fit with the theme of War drawing upon the chaos of battle to empower himself. A Berserk-like status would also not need a damage penalty at least in theory, so the skill can continue to follow Weapon elements like it currently. A status like this would be VERY useful, ESPECIALLY if it was allowed to persist outside of wearing the armor itself (like Mason’s Choke Imbue) or if it could stack with repeated uses of the skill (eg +15% damage and -10 BTH, stacked up to a max of 3 times for +45% damage and -30 BTH). If the Mayhem skill could grant a self-buff like this, especially one that persisted outside of using the armor, the War armor could easily become one of the most valuable armors in the game without being the best Fire armor available even if the Mayhem skill itself did half the damage it currently does. Considering that we have other spells/skills such as Arms of the Dragonguard that guarantee Lucky strikes, I do not consider my suggestion too unreasonable.

Solution 3: Make the Mayhem skill do Void or Harm damage.

This is probably my least favorite solution of the three, but it IS an option. The Mayhem skill doing only 1.5 times a normal attack’s damage for 385 SP would be completely understandable if the skill had a unique niche where it did Void or even Harm damage. While this would not really solve the problem of the skill doing less damage than many other top-tier FO armors, it WOULD give the War Undeniable armor a unique niche as being one of the few armors in the game that would be able to handle high END, low resist mobs that are the bane of every AQ player’s existence. It would at the very least give the players a reason to use the skill, a motivation they do not currently have.

As I have stated before, I have nothing but the utmost respect for the staff for the work they put into the War armor, and it would be a massive shame for the armor to be dismissed and discarded as inferior due to being too expensive and not worth the cost. I believe that implementing any of the solutions I have listed for the Mayhem skill, especially the first two, would go a long way in greatly improving the skill and the power of an armor that is meant to be the incarnation of a god and a major development in the life of the Chosen.

Thank you very much for your understanding and taking the time to read this.

< Message edited by Lord Tenebros -- 10/12/2019 18:40:54 >

Post #: 1

10/12/2019 15:48:18

kreem
Member

I agree. The armor is unique and useful but the new torontosaurus rex armor appears the be superior in the way it was balanced. Each skill getting an effect and one of them even being weapon like.

AQW

Post #: 2

10/12/2019 16:06:32

AliceShiki
Helpful!

Lots of issues with this.

1) Uhn... Hopefully this isn't considered minimodding, but the right place for this is the Suggestions Subforum. You're not pointing out a Balance Issue with armor (in this case it would be in the GBI), but suggesting a change for it based on your personal interpretation on what is good or bad for it.

2) Damage of a skills is always 200% melee by default. not *1.5. Though when compared to the damage of a Fully Offensive Armor it goes at about *1.6 damage... Oh well, minor correction anyways.

3) I don't want to be rude, but your argument is pointless at the moment you mention CIT. You can't point out an issue with a modern item by using an outdated broken item on wonky standards as comparison. Same thing goes for WKZ, Taladosian Robes, HSVV or any other item that uses standards that the game doesn't follow anymore.

4) Mayhem is basically the same as the attack of a Subrace's Beastform, but in spell form. (which again, is not an issue) That is a good thing by default.

5) You have 3 different options of skills to suit the situation you're in. This versatility is more than enough to make Mayhem a useful skill.

6) Not everyone plays with the meta strats of stunlocking the opponent and nuking them to death before they have a turn, so your needs are different from other players' needs.

If there is anything to take of this thread IMO, is that there might be a small GBI regarding to this armor. I'll need to ask staff for confirmation on this, but IIRC elecomp takes into account the armor's lean when being calculated, so FO armors have a bigger elecomp than FD armors to compensate for the fact that they have a bigger damage intake... However, since the Mayhem skill has no elecomp at all, it's not getting any boost for being FO, this might be a GBI.

I'll ask staff for confirmation on this matter (since I'm not 100% sure that armor lean has an influence on EleComp), but I'll make a GBI on that if needed.

Post #: 3

10/12/2019 16:32:20

Lord Tenebros
Member

I didn't know where to put this so I put it in GD to be safe.

I respectfully but completely disagree with you on Chieftain's Ironthorn and weapon-based skills. To dismiss my argument because it mentions Chieftain's Ironthorn is to ignore the fact that, to this very day, Chieftain's Ironthorn single-handedly boosts Weapon-based skills to a level far superior to those of spell-based skills. There is a reason why this shield is widely acknowledged as one of the most overpowered items in the game, and there is a reason why Spell-based skills are treated with disdain by the community at large. And I made sure to focus my discussion on newer items such as Torontosaurus Rex and Bloodzerker armor, which are not old, outdated armors and yet still outshine the War armor and certainly the Mayhem skill thanks to its skills being Weapon-based or focusing around weapons. You mention Mayhem being the same as a subrace's 4-hit attack in spell form, but here's my counterargument: why would I ever need to use the Mayhem skill when I can use the subrace attack from any Fire variant of a subrace instead? They both use whatever your current weapon's element is, but the subrace attack (a) costs less resources because it's a toggle and (b) will be superior in damage because of Chieftain's Ironthorn.

With regards to your points on nuking and versatility, if the Mayhem skill did something besides damage, then I'd agree with you. But the only thing that Mayhem does is damage, and not even very well compared to other comparable armors. Versatility doesn't mean much if the options offered are inferior to better options that are already present in the game. From a purely practical standpoint, I cannot think of any reason to use the War armor's damage skills over something like Bloodmage, Bloodzerker, or Torontosaurus Rider.

< Message edited by Lord Tenebros -- 10/12/2019 16:53:41 >

Post #: 4

10/12/2019 18:28:51

CH4OT1C!
Member

As @AliceShiki has quite rightly stated, this thread on War's legacy does not revolve around whether or not it is mathematically balanced. Instead, it revolves around whether or not it would be reasonably competitive as a fire. Ultimately, this means it must also compete with other juggernauts in the fire category, including Pyromancer Bloodmage, Blazing Bloodzerker and even (the recently released) Toronotosaurus Rex Rider. Before we even decide whether it can compete, we have to ask whether or not it should be able to compete.

I believe it should provide a strong alternative to other fire armours for a few reasons:
1). This armour represents the climax of this saga: As as been already stated, this isn't just any old reward. The very fact it has 3 skills demonstrates that. This represents our temporary ascension into the Pantheon of Lore. At the very least, you'd think a formerly divine armour should be able to compete with the likes of other armours in the category, even we are no longer divine.
2). The armour is extremely expensive: Alone, this armour costs over 100,000,000 gold at level 150. Players should at the very least expect to get something good for their money with that kind of investment.
3). This is the culmination of an incredibly well-written storyline involving a fan-favourite: Cray has done an incredible job doing justice to War. This armour is clearly separated as a special reward within this whole saga (as mentioned in point 1). It would be a terrible shame if that reward were completely forgettable, especially given how much effort was put into creating it (it has three skills!)

I have more reasons, but I believe those alone should suffice to explain why I believe this armour should at least be competitive with the other options listed above.

Next, we must ascertain whether or not it is able to compete with those stated above. The armour offers three skills, which definitely gives it a leg up on the others, which have two at most. That definitely offers some form of edge. However, that edge only exists provided those three skills are competitively viable. Individually, they needn't be as strong as the Bloodzerker fire imbue (I state as an example), but they must be able to at least provide a useful alternative. We must also be careful, as @AliceShiki has said, to exclude any overpowered/outdated competition such as Chieftan's Ironthron or White Knight Z. As popular as these items are, they technically shouldn't be as powerful as they currently are.

I must absolutely disagree with @AliceShiki's point of view. Whilst the Mayhem skill is essentially a spell version of the Beast form skill, those are not the same thing. Even excluding outdated items, weapon-based skills are far superior to their spell-based alternatives. Boosting weaponry such as Zealot's wrath is both far more available and accessible for weapon-based skills than it is for the spell-based equivalent. The maximum reliable bonus for a spell-based skill in weapon form are the rare Arcane Cutlass of Radiance/Combustion. Outside of these, you're relying (at best) on the outdated Tsunami pen, which is outclassed by Zealot's wrath in boost anyhow. Weapon-based boosters are more freely available as well, with the freely available Magnablade offering a +25% bonus to damage, on par with the cutlasses. This is before we even consider that weapon-based skills are affected by Armour Leans. The fact of the matter is, even without the insane boosts available with outdated items, spell-based skills are left in the dust. Thus, by having only spell-based skills, War's legacy is considerably less competitive.

At this point, @AliceShiki has interjected, stating that not everything is about nukes. Whilst that is indeed true, these are spell-based skills placed on a Fully Offensive armour. spell-based skills would indeed be great on an FD setup. Sadly, they are wasted on an FO armour. That hinders War's legacy from being able to function as an alternative to the other strong fire armours available. It can't even compete with the newcomer, Torontosaurus Rex rider.

Despite what I've stated above, Carnage has a benefit in that it receives substantial elecomp despite being a spell-based skill. This means, whilst it can't deal the same level of damage available from Blood pyre or Basketbreath, it can still hold it's own. It is competitively viable. Likewise, Panic has an edge in that, despite not being as practical as other fear inducing methods like Snarl, it can still be useful. Mayhem lacks that edge. It cannot touch the levels of damage on offer from the subrace beast forms. In many ways, it is better to use the Carnage skill because the elecomp means it will still do more damage. In other words (specifically the words of @Lord Tenebros), it is not competitively viable.

From the above, it is fairly obvious that I am in favour of fixing the mayhem skill. My preferred option of those raised by @Lord Tenebros would be #2. Just as I believe it should function as an alternative, there is no need for unnecessary powercreep. As long as it can function as a viable alternative, there is no need for it to become the new strongest fire option. That alone discounts option #1 in my eyes. Changing them to a weapon-based system would essentially offer three weapon-based options when others have one or two at most. It would become superior. I disagree with the void statement in #3 for the same reason. Unless it occurs as fake void, it would be superior to other armours. At the same time, converting it to harm wouldn't be sufficient to make the armour a viable alternative when plenty of harm options already exist (why use a harm skill when you can simply use Horo-show void vanquisher.

Option #2 offers players a way to activate Berserk without the need to run Grakma Warhorn. It would not offer unrivalled levels of power like bloodmage/bloodzerker, preventing unnecessary powercreep. It would follow thematically, tapping into the uncontrollable chaos of battle etc. In other words, it fits thematically, solves the problem and doesn't make it hands down the best fire armour available.

I do hope the staff consider this change, as I feel it would greatly improve an armour I know they have worked so very hard on. As has already been stated, it would be an awful shame for it to be dismissed so quickly, especially given how much players enjoy the War storyline. @Cray, you've done a fantastic job!

Post #: 5

10/12/2019 20:39:08

Kurtz96
Member

I agree that the mayhem could be given another use. There is no need to have 2 damage dealing skills on 1 armor. The berserk effect would be cool and make thematic sense as well.

It is a little sad that the War armor, a culmination of an entire saga, is outclassed by other (comparatively) unimportant armors like Toronosaurus. It would be like Thanos, the final villain of the Infinity Saga, being weaker than random MCU villain Darren Cross/yellowjacket.

quote:

We must also be careful, as @AliceShiki has said, to exclude any overpowered/outdated competition such as Chieftan's Ironthron or White Knight Z. As popular as these items are, they technically shouldn't be as powerful as they currently are.

Can someone explain why WKZ is over powered? I asked LegendaryAsh to run the numbers once (or twice, I lost the original thread and had to ask him to redo it. Thanks Ash) and a fully set up Lumenomancer Bloodmage (a modern armor) is stronger than a fully set up WKZ (with CIT). The same would hold for a fully set up Cyromancer Bloodmage vs HSVV and Hydromancer Bloodmage vs WHEEL.

Post #: 6

10/12/2019 21:42:06

AliceShiki
Helpful!

@CH4OT1C! Just because an armor is FO it doesn't mean the player is trying to nuke everything to oblivion though? Simply having a skill that deals more damage than your usual and that can element seek (which is basically the same thing as following weapon element) definitely has its uses.
Though of course it has no use if your game plan is to use armors of the wrong element for the sake of nuking the enemy with really strong skills due to elecomp. But again, just because it doesn't fit your needs, it doesn't mean it doesn't fit the needs of other parts of the playerbase, not everyone plays meta.

I'll agree that weapon damage boosts are more prevalent than spell damage boosts though, but I hardly see how lack of gear to support a given type of skill is reason to get a skill changed. If anything, it creates a demand for more gear to fill that role.

@Kurtz96 Elecomp is higher than it should be.
Armor Skills with elecomp to damage should be treated as spells, not as normal player attacks.

A comparison between WKZ and Bloodmage is pretty unfair tbh, as Bloodmage has a +50% boost by default. The fact that they can compete at almost the same level should highlight how overpowered WKZ is.

Post #: 7

10/13/2019 0:03:24

Lord Tenebros
Member

I would argue the opposite. Unless the staff releases a spell-equivalent of CiT (which would open a huge can of worms by itself), Weapon-based skills will pretty much ALWAYS be inferior to Spell-based skills. It is much simpler and much less work for the staff (with much less risk of accidentally breaking the game) to simply change Mayhem’s skill to be Weapon-based. Especially with how it is THEMED around Weapons, as I mentioned before.

With that being said, I realize that there are other simpler options to improve the Mayhem skill. The first would be to buff the skill’s damage directly. You mentioned that the Mayhem skill, due to its lack of Elecomp, is currently missing damage that it would normally have as an FO Armor. Depending on how much the damage of the skill is increased, it would be enough for the skill to at the very least be viable.

The second is to reduce the SP cost of the skill. The relatively weak damage of the Mayhem skill compared to the many options listed above would be much more justifiable if the cost of the skill is reduced. This would also provide the player with more versatility in playable choices, giving the option to nuke for a high SP cost with Carnage or attack repeatedly with a lower damage lower cost skill in Mayhem. The most apt comparison would be Human Fisher or Headless Horseman, although those two would have the advantage of Elecomp and being Weapon-based while Mayhem would allow Element-seeking.

While I think that there is less potential to be explored with these options, they are simple fixes that will probably be enough to satisfy everyone and allow the War armor to be competitively viable.

< Message edited by Lord Tenebros -- 10/13/2019 0:09:00 >

Post #: 8

10/13/2019 3:57:51

poopbum
Member

I'll admit that even when I'm using the temp version of War armor(where you deal 2X dmg and take 1/2 dmg), I found the Mayhem skill's extra damage to be barely noticeably bigger than just doing normal attacks.

I only really bothered to use the Carnage skill for burst, even in the context of the stronger, temp version where War is your only option.

As of now, Mayhem might as well be an inferior version of any of the subrace's lvl 10 skill simply cause it's tagged as a spell while costing a chunk more SP.(granted 2/3s of darkovian subraces funnel part of the SP cost into MP but still)

The mere fact that Mayhem is a spell-based skill in an FO armor without elecomp(and thus ignores armor lean) makes the sheer SP cost of this pure damage no frills skill questionable to use, even when compared to the normal attack of the War armor let alone another armor's actual skill.

This problem gets even worse as a perm item cause we often have even more item options to bolster our normal weapon attacks better(e.g. essence of carnage), even if we were to ignore old standard items as already has been explained by others before me.

So even if you were to ignore the existence of weapon skills, the SPell already competes awkwardly with even just an FO armor's normal attack.

Had the armor been another more defensive lean, the SPell might've felt less out of place even if pure dmg. Granted a defensive lean would've not be thematically appropriate for War, but I digress.

< Message edited by poopbum -- 10/13/2019 4:06:07 >

_____________________________

Post #: 9

10/13/2019 4:48:57

Primate Murder
Member

Before anything else, let me say that I can see why the staff made the Mayhem skill what it is. It's a viable subrace replacement for f2p players (who don't have access to Beast Form), Vampires (whose fire variant costs tokens) and nekos (who now can have nukes for every element in just one armor). As a matter of fact, if it was released before the subraces, or if it was released as a separate spell (unattached to an armor), it would have been considered quite op.

That said, I have to agree with poopbum - as a spell-type skill, Mayhem sacrifices 125% turn damage + 100% damage in sp to deal only 200% damage. This is, in fact, mathematically unbalanced, which means the skill should either a) become weapon-based to get the bonus; b) deal +12.5% damage; or c) cost 25% melee less in sp.

Post #: 10

10/13/2019 5:33:14

CH4OT1C!
Member

@AliceShiki

quote:

@AliceShiki said;
@CH4OT1C! Just because an armor is FO it doesn't mean the player is trying to nuke everything to oblivion though? Simply having a skill that deals more damage than your usual and that can element seek (which is basically the same thing as following weapon element) definitely has its uses.
Though of course it has no use if your game plan is to use armors of the wrong element for the sake of nuking the enemy with really strong skills due to elecomp. But again, just because it doesn't fit your needs, it doesn't mean it doesn't fit the needs of other parts of the playerbase, not everyone plays meta.

Yes, you are absolutely correct in the first part of your statement. Not every FO armour is focused on attempting to nuke everything to oblivion. For example, we have Paragon Plate, which contains no skill at all. Even if it has a skill, those aren't necessarily used to nuke, e.g.the Armour of Frostval past. Although it can be used to nuke, it's main use is to cover the ice element. However, I argue that nuking is the primary purpose of the mayhem and carnage skills. They are placed on a Fully Offensive armour (ie an armour designed to maximise damage output) and solely deal damage with no extra frills. The sole attraction to use these skills come from the damage that they deal. In that respect, Carnage does a decent job because, whilst spell-based, the high-elecomp ensures that the damage is sufficient for nuking.

Mayhem on the other hand... well, there is just a severe lack of reason to use it. I will omit the possibility of using wrong-element armours to nuke because you argue that is part of the benefit of this skill:
1). Mayhem does not follow an imbue weapon, and so you must always possess a weapon of that element to use it. This may have been no issue 12 months ago, but with the variety of imbue skills available today, the spell-based nature of mayhem means it loses a vast amount of versatility. Other armours with weapon-based skills can change element by using imbues, improving their versatility and eroding the very benefit you state Mayhem has over them. There is no spell equivalent of imbue.
2). You also raised the subrace beast form in your earlier post. It raises an important question: why use Mayhem instead? One could argue we can't compare to subraces given they have 10 skills and that nothing will ever match them. However, it is important to because i). we should have viable alternatives to these options which are ii). fully updated and on standard and iii) are available freely to any guardian (which is pretty common nowadays). The armours even cost less than War's Legacy!

That is not to say the skills should be actively trying to outcompete the subrace armours, only that they should offer something slightly different as an alternative. The Panic skill does this very well: it sacrifices any and all damage to inflict fear, similar to Snarl. However, it makes this unique by taking a turn and costing no SP. Whilst not necessarily as competitively viable, it has a use for those that don't wish to spend SP on a quickcast alternative (especially given the save is harder in War's Legacy). Carnage is more direct. It functions directly as the 9th skill in each armour. The difference? War has a different elecomp, sacrificing elemental defence to increase m/r/m and increased damage over the the subrace alternative. Again, it offers a similar, yet slightly different viable alternative.

Mayhem does not do this. The weapon-based beastform is more versatile because it benefit from the imbues addressed in 1). It also deals more damage as, whilst it because 25% lower than this skill, there is a wider variety of weapon-based damage boosters available. Unlike Carnage/Panic, there is no real reason to use it over Beastform. It's just an objectively inferior option. That doesn't even mention the fantastic points raised by @Poopbum. Why spend that much SP to deal only a little more damage than a standard FO attack? You don't need to play META to realise that is an inefficient way to fight.

With those two points in mind, there really isn't a serious niche use for Mayhem for any build: FO users get more damage elsewhere, FD players have to use an FO armour to get access to spell-based skills that they could get from elsewhere. That brings me onto..

quote:

@AliceShiki said
I'll agree that weapon damage boosts are more prevalent than spell damage boosts though, but I hardly see how lack of gear to support a given type of skill is reason to get a skill changed. If anything, it creates a demand for more gear to fill that role.

Given the reasons I stated in my first post, I believe this armour really should provide an alternative to the other items available. Otherwise, there'd be no real reason to use War's Legacy. Whilst there is absolutely a demand for more spell-boosters (the GGB magestaves: Eye of the Underworld, Luminous Whiff, Seraph Calamity and Winged sapphire staff. Would really be nice if they had a bigger spellboost than the magestaves), there is such a shortage at the moment it would take months/years to fix. We're talking about quick and easy fixes for War's Legacy, not ones for three years time.

AQ	Post #: 11

10/13/2019 8:45:07

lolerster
Member

Eh, as much as I would like a buff to war, the skill is balanced correctly. 2X melee with no ele comp due to being a versatile element. Torontosaurus Rex is a lot better...but I don't think that first skill was balanced correctly. The Info submission said it should've been a fire skill. The other reason it feels stronger is due to skill 2 scaling with CIT. However, the above posts have a good point. We shouldn't be balancing stuff around an old broken item that will probably get changed at some point.

AQ	Post #: 12

10/13/2019 9:31:37

Lord Tenebros
Member

Even if Mayhem is mathematically balanced, that does not translate to good, useful, practical, or worthwhile.

The very fact that multiple people have noticed the weakness of the Mayhem skill, even with 100 Momentum, should be setting off warning signs that there is a problem.

Post #: 13

10/13/2019 12:46:05

AliceShiki
Helpful!

quote:

You mentioned that the Mayhem skill, due to its lack of Elecomp, is currently missing damage that it would normally have as an FO Armor. Depending on how much the damage of the skill is increased, it would be enough for the skill to at the very least be viable.

Not a big amount actually, something between *1.125 to *1.25. Just to make it compensate for the fact you take *1.25 damage.

quote:

1). Mayhem does not follow an imbue weapon, and so you must always possess a weapon of that element to use it. This may have been no issue 12 months ago, but with the variety of imbue skills available today, the spell-based nature of mayhem means it loses a vast amount of versatility. Other armours with weapon-based skills can change element by using imbues, improving their versatility and eroding the very benefit you state Mayhem has over them. There is no spell equivalent of imbue.

You're assumed to carry one weapon of each element, Mayhem basically eleseeks as far as balance cares.

quote:

2). You also raised the subrace beast form in your earlier post. It raises an important question: why use Mayhem instead? One could argue we can't compare to subraces given they have 10 skills and that nothing will ever match them. However, it is important to because i). we should have viable alternatives to these options which are ii). fully updated and on standard and iii) are available freely to any guardian (which is pretty common nowadays). The armours even cost less than War's Legacy!

Mainly because you might not carry a Fire Beastrace and the War Armor in the same inventory? I mean, I'd generally expect you to bring either one or the other, so they wouldn't be overlapping.

If anything, I'll agree that making it weapon-based would be a small change that could make the skill more effective, but... Eh? It doesn't look like something that fits into a weapon-based skill. Opening a portal that summons a variety of different weapons that are not the weapons of your inventory feels very much like a spell to me. So art-wise it makes much more sense for the skill to remain spell-based IMO~

AQ	Post #: 14

10/13/2019 23:17:36

Lord Tenebros
Member

I might be nitpicking at this point, but there are other Weapon-based skills currently in the game that make less sense being Weapon-based than War's Mayhem skill.

One of the most prevalent examples is, as I've mentioned before, Angel of Souls' "Time to Burn". A skill that unleashes beams of darkness from inside the sleeves of the armor without directly involving the player's weapon at all. That skill has no business being a Weapon-based skill from an aesthetic viewpoint, and yet it is.

The Mayhem skill, which directly uses the armor's weapon to summon a bunch of medieval weapons to attack the enemy, makes much more sense being a Weapon-based skill than Angel of Souls' "Time to Burn." This is in sharp contrast to Carnage, which summons a pillar of fire from the earth without any references to weapons whatsoever, which most certainly fits the criteria of a Spell-based skill.

< Message edited by Lord Tenebros -- 10/13/2019 23:21:27 >

Post #: 15

10/14/2019 4:49:01

CH4OT1C!
Member

quote:

@AliceShiki said:
You're assumed to carry one weapon of each element, Mayhem basically eleseeks as far as balance cares.

I understand your point of view, but I wasn't making an argument as to whether or not Mayhem is balanced. I was arguing that it is not competitively viable. In that respect, my point still stands. Your point also does little to detract from my underlying argument. The elemental versatility of this skill versatility isn't as that much of a benefit due to the elemental imbues introduced in recent months.
Just to reiterate, I don't think either@Lord Tenebros or I are arguing that this item is mathematically unbalanced. This thread would belong in the GBI if that were the case. This is about the armour's competitive viability.

quote:

@AliceShiki said:
Mainly because you might not carry a Fire Beastrace and the War Armor in the same inventory? I mean, I'd generally expect you to bring either one or the other, so they wouldn't be overlapping.

After a bit of consideration, I'm still not entirely sure what you're trying to get at with this response. It's probably my bad explanation. Nevertheless...

1). For anyone guardian+ (a lot of people) War's Legacy is in direct competition with a subrace armour. Obviously, the former can and should never outcompete subraces, which have 10 skills (even if War's Legacy boasts an impressive 3 skills). However, for it to represent a viable alternative, those skills also must be somewhat decent. 10 decent skills vs 2 decent skills and 1 which you'll never lose, I know which one I'd go for.
2). Two of those skills, Carnage and Panic, help achieve this competitive viability. Although spell-based, Carnage has decent elecomp, leading it to compete with other nuke options available. The skills on War's Legacy must also offer something different to the subraces (again, because if you had 3 skills vs 10 with 3 identical skills included, why would you choose the former. Panic addresses this, granting fear but at no SP cost.
3). Mayhem is the odd one out. Essentially a spell-based version of Beast form, it deals significantly less damage and benefits from neither elecomp nor the armours offensive lean. The only thing it has going for it is versatility, which is undermined by both a) the aforementioned beast form skill and b) the number of imbue skills around.

Few, if any, competitive players would seriously choose to use the Mayhem skill given those circumstances. To be honest, I find it hard to believe any player would choose to use it for the damage/versatility. There are better ways to do it that are easily accessed.

< Message edited by CH4OT1C! -- 10/14/2019 5:01:40 >

AQ	Post #: 16

10/14/2019 10:21:13

Lord Tenebros
Member

One of the other big issues with the War armor, which has been implied but not explicitly stated previously, is the cost of the armor, which ties in with the weakness of the Mayhem skill.

The cost of the War armor is meant to cover an armor and 3 spells. However, because the Mayhem skill is so competitively unviable because (a) the subrace 4-hit attack is an objectively superior version that costs less SP per turn and (b) the Mayhem skill would probably do the same or even LESS damage than a basic attack when damage boosts are factored in, that we are functionally buying an armor and 2 skills for the cost of an armor and 3 skills. The subrace armors have a better 4-hit free-element strike than the War armor AND costs less.

Because the Mayhem skill suffers from such significant competitive unviability, the War armor as a whole is NOT worth the exorbitant cost required to purchase it.

< Message edited by Lord Tenebros -- 10/14/2019 10:29:59 >

Post #: 17

10/14/2019 10:29:39

Lineolata
Member

I agree that Mayhem isn't competitively viable, but gold is practically valueless unless you only recently hit level 150. I don't agree that the armor has to match the current meta, or that one of the three skills being spell-based makes the armor not worth purchasing. As mentioned earlier, it's a very nice armor with plot significance, and besides it has two skills that people do like and use. It's not a candidate for THE strongest fire armor like the fire-aligned bloodmage/zerker armors, but... so what?

If we change the topic to be a more general discussion about spell-based skills and/or the nature of how boosts interact with the player meta I could see some interesting points being made.

Post #: 18

10/14/2019 10:38:14

Lord Tenebros
Member

We're not asking for the entire War armor to be buffed to the point that it is the most dominant armor in the game. We are asking to change one specific skill, the Mayhem skill.

A skill that is not only grossly inferior to other options by FO armors, it does less damage than the armor's own BASIC ATTACK for 385/481 SP when you factor in CiT, and even without CiT the skill is ridiculously inefficient than using any normal attack + any guest. Not to mention the fact that other armors' BASIC ATTACKS like Bloodzerker outdamages the Mayhem skill even WITHOUT Blood Rage activated. The Mayhem skill is so bad that Carnage used against 75% Resists yields better results than Mayhem doing Void damage.

Mayhem offers practically nothing, with better functionality offered by most other FO fire armors regardless of being meta. This is a matter of a skill being objectively BAD and needing to be improved in SOME way.

< Message edited by Lord Tenebros -- 10/14/2019 11:21:41 >

Post #: 19

10/15/2019 4:07:47

I Overlord I
Member

Obviously this armor doesn't have to be BiS like the min-maxed to Hell BZ/BM armors, but the culmination of an epic saga that spanned across multiple months still shouldn't be effortlessly outclassed by an armor that is readily available to anyone in the LTS, like the TSRR. A significantly cheaper one, I might add.

_____________________________

“Nothing is so common as the wish to be remarkable.”

AQ	Post #: 20

10/15/2019 16:32:38

AliceShiki
Helpful!

I was talking with IMRy a bit regarding to Elecomp and FO armors, and touched specifically on the Mayhem skill issue since it is a skill without elecomp, so it's not getting the extra elecomp that FO armors usually get, essentially making it weaker than what you'd expect from an armor skill within a FO armor.

quote:

And yes, FO armours get slightly better eleComp.

I can see there being a bonus for using a spell-like skill in a FO armour (spells are designed to be cast from FD ones), but this is something New that we'd have to plan out.

(I did make some cuts to what she said, but those are the main relevant things to highlight)

So uhn... Yeah, Mayhem could receive some slight buff to compensate for the fact it has no elecomp.

However... Considering the time of the year we're in, with Yearly MC, Harvest Fest, Frostval and Giftboxes creeping dangerously near and with the stat revamp still on the works... I don't think staff will have the time to work on a new specific boost for spell-like skills in FO armors any time soon.

PS: I have no clue if IMRy did see or did not see this thread as I didn't ask. I also didn't bring up any of the potential changes to the Mayhem skill that were suggested in this thread to her attention, so I also have no clue on what her positioning regards those is. I only asked her specifically about the elecomp issue because it seemed like an actual balance issue to me.

AQ	Post #: 21

10/15/2019 17:43:26

lolerster
Member

I'm still not convinced that War really needs a buff. It's a balanced armor, which is not very appealing. Pretend it straight up just didn't have the 2nd or 3rd and a 700 mill price tag. The armor would be...fine, just not worth the 120 mill price tag. It would still be better than the reign armor. It would still the best FO non-subrace gold fire armor after Torontosaurus goes rare.

The issue isn't that War is too weak. Skill 2 is still 200% melee, which is effectively an elemental seeking standard spell with no real penalty (you can argue the penalty is that you have to stay in war armor). Skill 1 is exactly as strong as a spell based armror skill should be.

The issue here is that old standard/subrace/bm/bz armors are too strong, so war ends up feeling really weak. Let's say you made a new FO char and were told you can't use subrace energy armor or taladosian robes. You you decide to use uh...Starslayer? Umazen armor? Even if you dropped the cash for Protector of the Energy Realm, it simply doesn't compete.

See the gap between those armors and the next best armor is astronomical. Trying to match those armors in power will just lead to very fast power creep. The biggest buff that I can imagine for this armor is give a 1.25x elecomp on Mayhem and a price reduction.

Certainly, as the power of a demigod, its actual power level is disappointing. However, from a balance perspective, it makese sense. It's just that we have a number of very unbalanced armors also in the game right now.

AQ	Post #: 22

10/15/2019 18:08:55

AliceShiki
Helpful!

On a side note, the damage bonus would probably be *1.125, not *1.25. Because it would then be multiplied by the *2 BR% of the skill and end up with a 225% melee... Which is well, 100% more melee than the basic armor attack. Which is what you're paying for in SP.

AQ	Post #: 23

10/15/2019 19:42:27

Lord Tenebros
Member

I'm going to be blunt here - most people (especially not players who don't regularly visit the forums) don't think about mathematical balance when they judge how good an armor is, and I'd even go so far as to say that most players probably wouldn't care. Especially when blatantly unbalanced things like Essence Orb, Purple Rain, and Chieftain's Ironthorn exist.

I can tell you right now that I and several others have used the Mayhem skill and found it functionally lacking to the point that it's outright pathetic. The fact that War's basic attack can outdamage the Mayhem skill with a few damage boosts commonly used by many players, and the fact that the Carnage Skill on 75% resists can outdamage Mayhem doing Void damage for the exact same SP cost on a consistent basis speak for themselves. And as multiple people have stated, Mayhem is a strictly inferior version of a subrace's 4-hit attack that does less damage for a higher SP cost on a cheaper armor.

For the average player, functionality and practicality are far more important to answer the question "how good is this armor" than a sense of "mathematical balance" when the game's sense of balance is already undermined by things like Essence Orb, Purple Rain, and Chieftain's Ironthorn. Lolerster points out that there are too many unbalanced FO fire armors, and even he admits that the armor as it currently exists is disappointing. The only way the War armor won't be immediately tossed aside as inferior to every other current FO fire armor besides Overlord set is to have it sacrifice some "balance" to make it actually able to compete and be viable (ie making Mayhem a Weapon-based skill), or by giving it a niche not shared by the other armors (ie the Berserk status that I and CH4OTIC have mentioned).

< Message edited by Lord Tenebros -- 10/15/2019 19:57:04 >

Post #: 24

10/16/2019 1:38:49

Incantatus
Member

Wow just tried Mayhem and it's probably the worst skill out there. 800 dmg against combat trainer for 392SP LOL. and with CIT and basic attack with damage booster pets I am doing 1000+. Lolol. I'd rather have an armor with one good skill than 99 useless skills.

AQW	Post #: 25

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All Forums >> [Artix Entertainment Games] >> [AdventureQuest] >> AdventureQuest General Discussion >> The Problem with the War Armor's Mayhem Skill and How It Can Be Improved

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