Overpaying for guest celerity with Clever Disguise


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1/7/2022 13:25:50

Lv 1000
Member

quote:

Clever Disguise

Non-elemental misc. Boosts CHA/LUK and lowers BtH of incoming attacks (effectively an MRM boost, but since this is non-elemental the final numbers are 80% of normal, so wouldn't look good having decimals on MRM). You can also click on the misc icon in the upper left to pay SklSP (25% Melee) and skip your turn to give both your pet and guest Celerity.
Level	5	15	35	55	75	95	115	135	150
Type	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	G
PowLvl	5	15	35	55	75	95	115	135	153

SklSP	8	11	20	30	42	54	68	84	98

Clever Disguise is a misc that lets you sacrafice your turn and pay an SP cost to give your pet and guest celerity. Let's break this down: First, it assumes that the player is dealing 75% melee with normal attacks, however one turn of pet + guest damage is valued at 100% melee, and as such it has you pay 25% melee to make up for this.

The problem with this is that giving a guest celerity effectively pays for inself, as when you give a guest celerity you pay for that guest's upkeep twice, thus paying for the additional 60% melee in guest damage innately. This is why for other items that give guest celerity, there has not been an additional cost. This means that with how Clever Disguise is currently set up, you end up paying for 3 turns of guest damage, while only receiving 2 turns of guest damage.

So how do we fix this? I still think that the idea of skipping your turn to make your pets/guests be more powerful is a good concept so I would still have Clever Disguise skip your turn. Suggested changes: Remove the 25% melee activation cost, however the player's turn is still assumed to be worth 75% melee. Pet celerity is worth 40% melee so this leaves us with 35% melee. I propose that this be funneled into a +17.5% pet and guest damage buff for 2 pet/guest turns (the turn counter on the status would decrease when the pet/guest acts).

These suggested changes would allow Clever Disguise to maintain it's theme and niche while fixing the issue of being over charged for guest celerity.

Post #: 1

1/7/2022 13:40:50

Legendary Ash
Member

This is a duplicate of an earlier Clever Disguise GBI.

Post #: 2

1/7/2022 15:43:03

Sapphire
Member

@Lv1000

So..

1. Skip Your Turn
2. Remove SP cost upon clicking
3. 17.5% Boost to Pet and Guest damage during that turn

This is the balance fix?

If so, I agree

Post #: 3

1/8/2022 16:17:38

Lv 1000
Member

quote:

So..

1. Skip Your Turn
2. Remove SP cost upon clicking
3. 17.5% Boost to Pet and Guest damage during that turn

This is the balance fix?

Yes

Post #: 4

1/13/2022 5:59:21

Veleqwii_Fox
Member

~~I agree with Lv 1000 on this one. From the linked threads it was said that~~

quote:

The Clever Disguise is 1.1(Pet+Guest's 90% melee excludes decompression - player's .9*75% melee) = 24.75% melee worth of Sp.

~~Which means that the misc already "charged" the guest's second attack. You are overpaying because the guest still consumes SP/MP on its second attack~~

Ok wait, come to think of it, I think Clever Disguise may be alright as it is. It's guest celerity that's kind of an issue. Since based on the asssumed Beastmaster model, the upkeep cost of guests (~25% melee) is justified for its 60% melee power.

Now assuming that paying the guest upkeep twice to get the guest attack twice is problematic in terms of balance since 25% melee upkeep is much less than its 60% melee output.

< Message edited by Veleqwii_Fox -- 1/13/2022 6:30:02 >

Post #: 5

1/15/2022 20:46:45

Legendary Ash
Member

A Guest is comprised of 25% melee from the penalty of Cha Mainstat weapons in the same manner as Int weapons in exchange for 25% melee worth of mana, +25% melee output from 25% melee worth of upkeep and +10% melee from decompression, the upcoming Stat Balance Project state the upkeep will be increased to 30% melee, to effectively lower the decompression to the appropriate 5%.

The player receives the 25% melee that was excluded from the turn cost through the Guest acting a second turn with standard upkeep for its output, with the addition of the Pet acting a second turn, the total is then modified by the always useful penalty to power and cost as with Shadowfeeder Pendant that formerly had a non-elemental penalty, but an argument was made to for a change.

Post #: 6

1/16/2022 1:30:28

ruleandrew
Member

- - Condition check after guest attack - -
If player pay additional resource for guest attack due to guest celerity then player shall gain the resource (limit to standard guest cost) that was paid for guest attack.

Post #: 7

1/16/2022 9:41:03

Sapphire
Member

I have never read the thread Legendary linked to until today. Some info therein seems like some good changes, but others seem counter to whats good and other posts contained within did a good job of pointing that out. I won't get into what points seem like a good idea and what doesn't, but considering this is almost 3 years old and nothing's been even remotely done, it feels like this may have been scrapped, and probably for the best. Maybe there are some bits and pieces contained within that can be changed for the better, while other things are by in large left alone. I *do* think dexterity needs changed somewhat.

However, even if it hasn't been scrapped at all, it also feels like using a 3 year old proposed idea as justification for anything in GBI *today* is simply fallacy.

What I think needs to be looked at is count the total melee damage output on the following scenarios, and total Mp/SP cost.

Scenario 1-> Melee (Warrior) Player attack + Guest attack + Pet attack (Total Melee%; total upkeep cost )
Scenario 2-> Magic (Mage) Player attack + Guest Attack + Pet attack (Total Melee%; total upkeep cost
Scenario 3-> Guest Attack + Guest Attack + Pet Attack + Pet Attack (Total Melee%; total upkeep cost + cost to click the misc)

I am guessing scenario 3 is 60+60+40+40? so 200%. But I am not sure what the player attack value is considered to be for the Warrior and Mage variants considering they're not pure builds, and we havn''t discerned if we are assuming dex trained (which I would guess) or other stats..since accuracy will change this value I presume.

And I think this comparison would reveal the answer, if it is assumed on *todays* standards. I wouldnt use some 3 year old theoretical proposal until any changes go active.

< Message edited by SapphireCatalyst2021 -- 1/16/2022 10:10:30 >

Post #: 8

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