T3 Classes and Power Creep


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9/28/2021 11:45:46

Zennistrad
Member

This is continuing from a discussion brought up by SapphireCatalyst2021 in a recent thread.

With the Necromancer revamp underway, and the Paladin class already fully revamped, one thing that's become fairly apparent recently is that class armors, especially Tier 3 classes, are almost certainly going to be the most powerful options available for whatever element they're in. This is just because of the sheer number of advantages they grant over other armors. While typical Mastercraft armors can have up to three skills (paid for by MC + price and a penalty if necessary), Tier 3 classes far, far exceed that limit due to their leveling structure. With a maximum of twenty skills for no penalty, T3 classes offer a level of versatility that no non-class armor can seriously compete with. Though some armors may have much stronger skills (WKZ and Lumenomancer Bloodmage come to mind when compared to Paladin), they still have vastly reduced utility in general cases. This would mean that, outside of the most hardcore optimization strategies, T3 class armors are almost guarunteed to end up being the best-in-slot for whatever elements they cover.

So that brings us to the particular problem this presents for any future armors or items that come out following T3 class revamps. What exactly would be the point in even making new armors, or new mastercraft sets, if players have no reason to use them over what's available as class armors? This problem has already reared its ugly head for fully-defensive characters with the Neko subrace armors, as defensive armors have to do something particularly special in order to even be worth considering over an equivalent Neko subrace armor. And this is only for a subrace armor, which by default has only half the skills of a T3 class.

In this context, it's clear that power creep might become an issue going forward. How would this be addressed in a manner that doesn't completely invalidate all the efforts being put into class revamps?

While I think it will be hard to come up with a definitive answer, I think one place to start would be to lock each class's skills behind class titles. Right now, class titles only effect the "Level 0" skill of each class, but I propose that it should be more subraces, but with a twist.

So, this is my current proposal: using class armor skills should only be possible if you have that class's title, or the title of a class in a higher tier that inherits from it. Having a Paladin class title, for example, would let you use Paladin Skills. But since training as a Paladin requires having levels in Knight, Fighter, and Mage, then having a Paladin class title would also allow you to use the skills on Knight, Fighter, and Mage class armors.

This is just one potential way of approaching this, but what do you all think?

< Message edited by Zennistrad -- 9/28/2021 21:30:55 >

Post #: 1

9/28/2021 12:10:08

PD
Member

Some rules I have thought of when it comes to this:

1. For T3's, as RobynJoanne suggests, would *normally* be considered having 20 or so MC's compressed into a single armor slot, if every skill is considered an MC. Fundamentally there should be a rule in general that limits the number of MC's that can be dedicated to an item, as well as rule that dictate how much you can absolutely extract from each MC. This is particularly pertinent to once-per-battle skills like SunScale's Legacy which normally 1-2 turns most undeads (and deals significant fire damage otherwise), but gets so much because of it compressing all of its power into 1 use per battle. I don't remember who said it but compressing that much value so densely should have some diminishing return associated with it. There's been a worrying trend of absurd min-maxing out these MC's and other associated bonuses. We subtract some value to get an even more absurd additional value. With enough min-maxing, the min/penalities no longer matters as winning battles from the sheer amounts of maximization virtually papers over said penalties.

2. We might want to consider the ability of hobbling certain classes if you're not of the right class title currently. Perhaps when you become a T3 class, you have to reset the levels associated with that class. For example, if you're a level 10 Paladin, and you want to become a Necromancer, you have to on switching start that class over as level 1. And if you want to go back to Paladin, become a level 1 Paladin again. This would virtually remove the massive amounts of versatility associated with having multiple T3's. Somewhat similar to your own idea, although my idea is much harsher as a penalty. I do like the idea of locking out classes that aren't associated with your current class's progression tree though.

3. Probably associate a downtrigger with things specifically like Paladin and Necromancer. If it were this good merely against undead, it might be more tolerable as it stands, but I find myself using Paladin on everything that is generally of the light and dark elements. Most things that have triggers in the game usually have a downtrigger, or they spend the MC to eliminate said downtrigger.

< Message edited by PD -- 9/28/2021 12:14:47 >

Post #: 2

9/28/2021 13:39:58

J9408
Member

^That is exactly why I use Neko. If there were more good gold FD armor options comparable to Neko, I would use those. That is why the Fiery Matchmaker is great.

I like the Neko class but sometimes using the same armor all the time can get boring.

< Message edited by J9408 -- 9/28/2021 13:44:38 >

Post #: 3

9/28/2021 15:17:53

RobynJoanne
Member

It's closer to both, honestly, for Neko. It's both one of the few good options for F2P players, and it's just overall fantastic and only arguably beaten out by a few armors: Cherub, Bard of War, and Fiery Matchmaker. Neko's compression means that players can also use all of these armors at once, so the core of most FD players' inventories are still the Neko armors. Also, these armors are the particularly special armors that Zennistrad mentions, so they only further his point rather than the opposite.

@PD
Paladin already has downtriggers for many of its skills. They don't exactly do anything more than slightly hinder it. If anything, they only further prove that sheer versatility will trump pure power more often than not.

I like the idea of limiting classes based on class title. I think resetting class levels is overly harsh because it's not much of a punishment. Instead, it merely encourages tedium for the sake of tedium. We've been moving away from game mechanics that waste time. It would be a step backwards to add something like that in my opinion.

My only issue with limiting classes in this way is that it does not curb the actual power of classes. Paladin will remain the ultimate undead killer. As long as Paladin exists, the staff will always need to plan for it when creating undead bosses since it just does so much. That's before we take into account broken interactions through Zorbak Ally Assists and Ebony Sepulchure Form. Necromancer is still the strongest darkness nuke in the game through its double elecomp, and it has numerous guest compression and recovery options that far surpass almost anything else in the game. Healing is usually quite underpowered, so Necromancer's Grasp Essence skills, which can easily heal an entire HP/MP bar, are almost unparalleled.

Post #: 4

9/28/2021 16:07:48

Lorekeeper
And Pun-isher

Some form of limitation is a functional necessity for reasons of overall and inter-build balance (Due to the present disparity in access to viable skills), as well as for the sake of avoiding the blotting out of design space by access to large amounts of skills in each armor. However, while the specifics of future releases can't currently be disclosed, I wouldn't expect a punitive approach such as resetting levels.

Post #: 5

9/28/2021 20:45:04

Sapphire
Member

There has to be some counter-balance. Paladin and Necromancer are literally opposites, and there are several items that even have triggers or downtriggers depending on if the monster is a Paladin/Necromancer or even if you are a Paladin or Necromancer. Yet, currently, you can be both and pretty much use each to it's fullest, or near their fullest extent.

These two, in particular, have to be made that if you're one, then the other armor has all kinds of it's abilities become much, much weaker, or maybe even a few of them not work at all.

As I pointed out before, Necromancer is the first class that I can remember that doesn't have a "If you're class title is Necromancer, then......." Why? The class title should make the skills *come alive* so to speak. So that means you can USE the armor, but that it won't be even close to optimized. I'll give you perhaps an example:

Necromancer has the ability to inflict Fear. Maybe the Fear infliction is removed, but the damage aspect remains. Maybe in Grasp Essence you can't EAT the fear if your class title isnt Necromancer, but the damage remains (minus the eat fear boost) There are things within that you can toggle on and off based on your class title. Maybe the guests/pets summons/calls cannot toggle it's effects...or they have no effects..just damage. Make the class title give you that extra niche effect, etc .

If a class level reset is ovr the top, which I think it is...as I have outlined what I think *should* happen already...and yes sometimes the best answer is the hardest, most time consuming...so lets get it done, but another option could just be resetting the "advanced" version only...meaning you just have to request to gain access to use the advanced armor..so sort of "The Cure-esk" of sorts.

Neko- There's no reason not use any FD armor in the game other than Neko. None. Even Bard of War is VASTLY inferior. Heck, Neko isn't even a FD armor quite honestly. It's FO. It's just FO via other means...pet/guest boost, burn/bleed +25% infliction...all that adds up to FO or more TBH. I wouldn't view Neko as FD, except that I suppose you CAN toggle it to be FD by turning off the burn/bleed stuff.

But this all honestly isn't just about subrace armors and class armors, etc. There's a MUCH bigger picture that needs to be looked at from a 40,000 foot view. All we have is 4 leans, and 3 of the 4 is like 99% of everything now. (Not withstanding outdated Mid-Off, Mid-Def)

The game will always need fresh ideas. And the willingness to try ...

Why not create a Beastmaster Lean that's desireable? I know that's been tried, but maybe it needed some finesse rather than scrapped? Spellcaster gets 1.8ish elecomp to at least 1 element with bad weapon offense and bad defense.... Why not make Beastmaster leans with the same Ele-comped damage with their pets/guests? Same bad offense bad defense? But 1.8* to 1 element, maybe a lesser one to others etc following normal elemental wheel ele comp standards.... If that were to come to pass, you would think they might be able to compete with Sol Neko a bit more...

I mentioned in the Mastercraft official thread for this week's release, kind of wishing for a re-imagined lean that I randomly called a Ranger Lean but I'm not holding onto the name as much as I'm saying maybe rider and mounted armors should be blocking focused..we are talking 70/70/70, with Ranged and 100 proc massive damage and BTH boosts, but you lose damage using melee/magic standard weapons and spells...... and go back and update all these armors that you ride/mount? Make it NEW, with specific powerful perks....to make it compete with everything else. This type of lean would bring ranged back to life, would it not?
I mean, imagine this: Ranger Lean: Initiative Boost 105; 50% boost. 70/70/70 blocking as a standard. Could do 72/68/70, and variations but 210 blocking MRM total. +20% bth to ranged weapons, +50% to ranged and 100 proc damage. X1 defense, X1 offense (like neutral) -25% damage if using melee/magic weapons, and all spells. Wouldn't this be desireable to use? Can still have a skill built in? I mean bring it!!

Also, the under utilization of MP to boost things .....like how we tend to with SP... I have never understood why there has been this hesitancy to implement this widely.

Class armors and subrace armors would competed with more if we actually said ok, this such and such armor can spend 653 MP to boost any weapon attack by "spell damage" amount...like if you take your normal .75 magic attack and 2x spell attack, a Mage could spend 653 MP, attack, and get 2.75 damage....

Or like how Vampire and Werepyre use a hynbrid cost of Sp and MP...regular armors need MORE of this, and probably, higher costs for higher damage....

Lets get out of the "usual" and start experimenting already.

I don't know if it's really power creep, though. Because much of what we see made have costs to implement. Maybe costs are too low, but they have costs nonetheless. So these ideas I threw out there also have costs...but allow you to create desireable items to compete with tier 3 class armors and subrace armors.

There's nothing wrong with tier 3 stuff. There's something wrong with the old guard...and how bland it is compared with new, fresh ideas.

< Message edited by SapphireCatalyst2021 -- 9/28/2021 21:08:32 >

Post #: 6

9/28/2021 21:43:32

Zennistrad
Member

quote:

There's no reason not use any FD armor in the game other than Neko. None. Even Bard of War is VASTLY inferior

Bard of War has a fairly significant advantage over Neko in that it is much, much better with pets that have status infliction options. While Sol Neko can increase pet/guest damage and have them inflict burn/bleed, a good number of the best pets in the game do not rely on damage at all for their utility, which makes celerity significantly more potent than simple damage increases.

There are also several utility armors in FD builds that compliment Neko very well. Geocastellum is just straight-up incredible as a defensive tool and the fact that the element shield persists between armors means it's always worth keeping a slot open for it on defensive chars. Matchmaker is also good for the same reason that Bard of War is good: Celerity is just straight-up the most powerful positive status you can give yourself most of the time, and Matchmaker is unique in that your foe can't save against it.

It's not that FD armors can't compete with Neko, it's that they generally have to do something that Neko isn't capable of doing on its own. T3 classes have more difficulty with this than subrace armors do because, again, they are generally vastly more versatile with 20 skills instead of 10.

Post #: 7

9/28/2021 23:03:11

Sapphire
Member

As with many things, your gear will dictate a lot.
If one picked up clever disguise this past year, it offsets things Neko can't do. When I play my Neko build, I clever disguise spam usually. So pet/guest celerity is a simple click, and you're good. The extra pet/guest turn in Sol Neko is then magnified more so than in Bard of War. More damage. Bleed. Burn. Stacked ele vulns leads to even more increased damage. And if you just hold ancient mothers staff and have doomquake minions and the earth protean pet on ele vuln mode, you get earth vuln up to around 238% just by clicking clever disguise. If you wield independence daygur and have grakma guest and a multi-hit fire pet, the ele vuln potentially gets higher than my earth stack...just less reliable and slower attacks so I tend to PCO everything to earth.

Two rounds of clever disguise clicking can yield you 6-8k combined damage in Sol Neko. It's insane.

I have the wind bard of war, and it's good. If you use clever disguise, you basically get a banked celerity using bard of war. It is nice for sure. And I have used the stun-lock methods and they're very very powerful. Dual hydras is crazy.

But if you don't own clever disguise, yeah bard's potential to stun lock is a favorable asset.

Post #: 8

9/29/2021 10:25:31

BlitzAegis
Member

Just put a SP cap that is obtainable per turn, change purple rain mechanic on percentage change from the initial cast, eg (If hp/mp/sp was changed/reduced by 30% after first cast, the second purple rain cast would have a random chance of returning 50-80% of the value that was changed rather than 100%).

Increase SP consumption for using a class armor while having a different class title. Aside from SP changes, maybe reduce effectiveness of bonuses of armor skills when using different class title as well.

Honestly, Paladin and Necromancer are SP/MP hungry classes and will be rendered slightly less effective when the devs nerf purple rain/essence orb/EoC/haunted dragon series and also the latest premium weapon since those items allow the players to use powerful, SP/MP hungry skills multiple times in a battle. The reduction of effectiveness would be more apparent when fighting on a second battle or 4 round battles without heal since players would need to be careful on SP/MP/HP management on their next battle.

Capping the amount of uses that PCO is allowed per turn will also prevent massive damage spike. This will also increase the number of turn spent between changing the enemy's elemental resistance to a desirable one vs spending the turn on attacking.

The main issue is the items listed that have been serving as power creep which allow the players to mostly ignore conventional means of HP/MP/SP management for using costly resource consuming items repeatedly. Try playing any of the new classes/subraces without resource-regaining items, and you will be forced to be smart about your resource usage. This would in turn make players think about using armors that have special effects that cost no resources/minimal resources in their equipment slots since all those resource hungry armors are not that effective when those resources are used up.

< Message edited by BlitzAegis -- 9/29/2021 10:48:10 >

Post #: 9

9/29/2021 10:57:06

RobynJoanne
Member

@BlitzAegis
On the one hand, you are very correct about the resource use of the classes and subrace. Running purely Paladin against the Heart of Tiamoth without any other equipment required either an SP-healing pet or heal looping with Essence Orb for SP management. The primary use of the Darkovian subrace armors for most people are their QC skills, stat drives, and Beast Form. Those together are very reliant on MP/SP. Necromancer similarly uses up a lot of MP/SP on its toggles and spells. On the other hand, Necromancer inherently has ways to heal its MP back to full in a single turn using only the skills it has. Granted, it does require running its guests and pets, so not every build can fully take advantage of that. However, that's part of what makes Grasp Essence so utterly powerful; it can generate resources using resources that one has used at far greater efficiency. The other subraces and Paladin do require smarter (less wasteful) play without resource-gaining items, but they also all have skills of their own to somewhat mitigate their resource usage.

PCO is another bag of worms that deserves its own thread.

Post #: 10

9/29/2021 10:59:38

Biokirkby
Member

I agree with an SP regen cap, nerfing PCO, and very much so increased importance of class titles.

The Necomancer and Paladin are indeed absurdly strong, to the point of suggesting a nerf, but I do not think it is all bad. From a certain point of view, it makes sense- we are level 150, we can have some overwhelming power as a treat. I tend to think that people get so into meta that they realise this game isn't that hard for the well equipped (Hopefully I'm not out of touch to say that.) Using equipment you think is cool or interesting will usually secure victory just as well. This comes with the caveats of war/farming armours where speed is everything, and of course, since lesser armours work fine for the most part, tier 3 classes would probably survive a nerf.

Also, I think having a class lose all training is a severe punishment. It wouldn't actually make any class weaker, it'd just make things harder on the player.

AQW

Post #: 11

9/29/2021 19:32:57

Sapphire
Member

Purple rain should reset everything except SP.

PCO should cost SP per click,or maybe even MP since IMO it makes more thematical sense to make it more like a magic effect rather than a skill effect, but I would understand the argument against that. Maybe have it cost both per click. Nothing else should change.

Essence orb should be more like soul gauntlet, perhaps not quite as efficient.

I also feel like there should be a Strength modifier added to SP regen per round, instead of making it the same throughout. Str/10 more per round or Str/8 or something. Give warriors and hybrids a small boost to SP regen for balance sake.

Obviously deal with the dragonlord weapons.

I am in agreement that being L150 using the advanced tier 3 class should be powerful. In fact, I believe they SHOULD be the most powerful armors in the game. I believe making them more equal to other armors kind of makes choosing a class pointless, choosing a subrace pointless. These should be mainstays. The issue really is that other armors are stuck using old, outdated ideas. Oh hey this armor is FD or FO.....okkkk we are in 2014 still eh? That's why I have no issue with Tempest, or anything else more recent that comes off as more powerful than older stuff. I think the older stuff needs a redesign, updates, new ideas implemented, and lets bring the older game up some.

Post #: 12

9/30/2021 0:44:20

Bannished Rogue
Member

I outlined my concept of how the classes can be scaled off of each other for balance and the mechanisms of their power for balance:

quote:

Tier 1- Should be providing a base line understanding of the general mechanics of the game as well as providing small application and strategy for that playstyle / Example:
Fighter- Focuses on STR stat and its application (damage boost, elemental modifier resistance percentage decrease, statuses that nerf damage)

Tier 2- Should be a further immerse in the particular playstyle that branches off of the tier 1's; these should be a staple in a particular task or build (i.e: dodge, infliction of a specific status, backlash, etc.) to give them uniqueness rather than just having a bunch of skills that just.. do stuff and deal damage. These should be slightly stronger than an untriggered tier 2.5 but weaker than it triggered of course.

Tier 2.5- These are even more specialized skills considering they require different types of skills all coalesced into one art form. They aren't generally useful like the flat tiers but are extremely effective at the certain task it was designed for (typically your "slayer" classes). When triggered (i.e: dragonslayer vs. Dragon), it should be able to reach tier 3 (flat) power

Tier 3- With the long hinted "Archmage" class, it is possible that a singular successor directly from one specific tier 1 class could be a thing instead of what I'm about to describe about tier 3.05. This would be a pinnacle of power for its respective tier 1 counterpart, very versatile to wear as a standard and obviously taking a power nerf for overall usefulness. It should overall be a little bit stronger than a non-triggered tier 3.05 (i.e: paladin not fighting undead or demons).

Tier 3.05- Are only .05 instead of the full point into 4 because the third prerequisite is not in line with the main two and just an additional tier 1 class prerequisiteinstead if another tier 2. Overall this class follows the same suit as the tier 2.5 in utility and mechanic however given its higher tier, it should be overall useful as a standard armor, but true power cannot be achieved unless triggered of course.

Tier 3.5 or Tier 3.55- These and further on currently don't exist. This theoretically would be the result of an additional and unrelated tier 2 and/or 2 & 3 prerequisite. While technically possible, I dont have any idea what kind of thing would be in here nor am I advocating for a class in this theoretical tier.

Tier 4- It very well could be the something like the Archmage could come with something like the necromancer as a prerequisite, which would bump up its tiering. This would be virtually the same as what was described as a triggered tier 3.05 all the time with a nerf to power for overall usefulness.

I tier based on the number of classes in direct evolution of a previous class (i.e: assassin is 3 because it is preceded by ninja which is 2 because ninja is directly preceded by rogue which is 1; the .05 comes from the non-directly related tier 1 class of scholar). I could go into extended decimals when a class only requires a rank 5 vs a mastery of rank 10, but I do not feel it is really necessary for this discussion and would prefer to keep this as simple as possible.

To give a premise of the scale of power I'm invisioning:
It is my idea that a tier 3 armor would be about equivalent to the "inbetween Mastercraft set". A good many Mastercraft sets' powers' can only truely be realized with the full set bonus buff. The issue, is that more often than not, the element that the monster is attacking with is also the element they have the most defense against. Without the full set equipped, the pieces are still generally useful and can still be utilized decently without having to grit one's teeth through the massive pros and cons to the full set equip against the monster's strongest defense. Additionally, one could invest in one of the spells/weapon/miscs that can change the monsters' elemental resists to the more optimal, but its always at random, so extra turns are wasted (and has the potential of getting you killed waiting too long) and/or potential slots of gear are taken up which could prevent having an all encompassing inventory.
• So the full Mastercraft set equipped against a monster's weakest resistance = uptriggered tier 3.05.
• Therefore a non triggered 3.05 = non full set bonus Mastercraft pieces against a monster with its medium resistance (because it should still be somewhat useful).
• The tier 3 would be inbetween as mentioned earlier.

This would suggest that a paladin should by all standards and measurements, be an undead nuking machine and just a generally somewhat decent light armor. This also suggests only reaching that power via uptrigger and not beating out other light armors when uptriggered. This is honestly how I feel while I'm in it. It isn't completely unstoppable because I've lost to challenge bosses all the same even WITH uptrigger and then won after a few tries which is par for the course that it isn't that OP where it counts. But as a teir 3.05 class 20 MASTER, WITH an uptrigger, I should be able to absolutely obliterate a mere skeleton/zombie/ghost or two.

This all prevents power creep because its all relative to and based on the end game content.
• Even an uptriggered tier 2.5 could be more powerful than an untriggered 3.05
• A tier 2 is usually stronger than a 2.5
• Tier 3 is really just the stronger version of tier 1 so it doesnt take away the concept of the tier 1 class
So there's overlap that provides viability for players that desire certain gear for various reasons (roleplay, aesthetics, effects, gameplay strategy).

Like everyone has expressed as well, I'm on board with the concept with nigh needing the class title and the statement and subsequent information expressed with:

quote:

The class title should make the skills *come alive* so to speak

However I think it should be slightly less significant of a nerf if the relevant title isn't currently attached to the player as mentioned. Additionally, I think that the class title within the same general path (i.e: mage, wizard, necromancer / rogue, ninja, assassin / etc.), should still have some benefit for all of them if not full benefit.

Lastly, when it comes to the single use moves, they will become extremely unwieldy once Essence Orb becomes nerfed and the massive amount of SP it consumes can't just be regenerated right before the full heal.

< Message edited by Mr. Uber -- 9/30/2021 7:53:09 >

AQW

Post #: 13

9/30/2021 1:10:01

Biokirkby
Member

Perhaps class titles could be streamlined? Make it into casters, warriors, rangers, beast masters etc. Some classes might fall into multiple categories

AQW

Post #: 14

9/30/2021 2:10:27

PD
Member

quote:

The Necomancer and Paladin are indeed absurdly strong, to the point of suggesting a nerf, but I do not think it is all bad. From a certain point of view, it makes sense- we are level 150, we can have some overwhelming power as a treat.

The problem is less about their power (though it is also a problem), and more about design space. As we've established, there are pieces that do individual things better than T3's (and really, we should extend subraces as a part of this because they're the little brother that also is problematic), but that the breadth of those T3's and subraces are so wide that to give us another option would be constricting if not outright impossible to do. There's hardly any other reason to use anything in their respective elements. I admit I haven't used White Knight Z ever since Paladin got released. Why use White Knight Z? Damage. But I can still get great damage (although perhaps not at much as WKZ), but ALSO get a bajillion other things. In the right conditions (which is very easy to do because there's the Zorback/Ebony + Paladin Combo), Paladin is virtually unstoppable and also makes it hard to design enemies. For that fact (also because of anti-nuke strats) that enemies have required an increasing amount of statuses (freedom, boss boost, raw damage reductions, clawbacks, soft caps, initiative bonuses, etc) because of just how absurd we've been getting lately.

< Message edited by PD -- 9/30/2021 2:32:35 >

Post #: 15

9/30/2021 9:38:52

LoreQuester
Member

Paladin actually has a very glaring weakness, namely the fact that special attacks from monsters which get modified by ele resistance can be extremely deadly. For example, a zombie's draining attack deals very little damage against a paladin, yet it could still recover the entire hp bar due to the paladin's low darkness resistance. Thus, monsters that can daze/paralyze constantly will find paladins easy preys since the stun chance is not affected by the paladin's light resistance (unless said attack is also light in nature)

Another, albeit more embarssing, personal example is the water boss from A Cavernous Chronice quest. This boss didn't have any fancy boosts like the ones we see nowadays, yet she almost managed to kill my paladin by stun-locking him to near death, and this was after I had turned her into an undead using Ebony Sepulchure. It was a humbling experience as it taught me Paladin wasn't invincible

If the staff plan to make more bosses that can go toe-to-toe against Paladins, this would certainly be a start. As a side note, I also agree that players should only be able to choose between paladin or necromancer as an active armor. Gotta keep that immersion from breaking, somehow

AQ	Post #: 16

9/30/2021 10:31:20

ruleandrew
Member

For class X

Player click on equip class abilities menu, which is located at BattleOn.

Player can select 5 abilities for class X. These selected abilities will be applied to class X armour.

This is the best way to control power creep.

AQ	Post #: 17

9/30/2021 11:30:04

J9408
Member

^That is a interesting thought, separate skills into multiple categories right?

To expand further perhaps we could do something like choose active offensive, support, defensive abilities.

Post #: 18

10/13/2021 9:28:33

Zennistrad
Member

quote:

Paladin actually has a very glaring weakness, namely the fact that special attacks from monsters which get modified by ele resistance can be extremely deadly. For example, a zombie's draining attack deals very little damage against a paladin, yet it could still recover the entire hp bar due to the paladin's low darkness resistance. Thus, monsters that can daze/paralyze constantly will find paladins easy preys since the stun chance is not affected by the paladin's light resistance (unless said attack is also light in nature)

This makes me wonder what the comparable Necromancer weakness would be. I'd say that it's extremely MP-hungry, but Necro also appears to have some very potent MP regeneration options so that's out the window.

Bosses that have extremely high magic blocking and multiple unconventional status immunities (particularly Bleed, Burn, and Fear) would seem to be the most obvious choice.

AQ	Post #: 19

10/13/2021 15:47:27

Sapphire
Member

Necromancer is actually very SP hungry, and the other thing that is ..idk it's a blessing a curse... it's all over the map on what build is best for it. That's great for a variety of players who wish to use it, but it then limits it.

For example, it feels like all the summons/calls and ability to boost pet/guest damage makes it a beastmaster's armor. In addition, Fear has a charisma save. This is a lesser issue for non BM since monsters dont have charisma usually, and simply equipping terror misc will yield a successful infliction. But skills 16-20 tend to utilize endurance. Not only via stat damage, but the MP heal takes HP cost, and the L20 skill gets stat bonuses from end and deals more damage the lesser HP you have....so a tank variety not only tends to be useful on those skills, but the fact this class eats SP at all times, having END for more SP regen via EO would be useful.
On the flipside, the grasp essence skills become more powerful with damage enhancers, which LUCK will do for you especially if you get guaranteed crit.

The weakness is SP regen. Paladin at least has a few MP toggles.

Post #: 20

10/15/2021 3:46:39

Zennistrad
Member

quote:

Necromancer is actually very SP hungry, and the other thing that is ..idk it's a blessing a curse... it's all over the map on what build is best for it.

That's sort of true for Paladin too. The Paladin class is usable equally by both Warriors and Mages, but it's ALSO better with CHA due to the Summon Steed and Overwhelming Aura both using it (Summon Steed in particular is the most SP-efficient direct damage skill Paladin has, outside of Righteous Retribution at low HP), and better with END due to healing skills and Resilient Aura relying on it. The warrior-specific Avenger variant of Paladin also uses END for the Redeemer's Might skill, and the standard Paladin class uses hybrid stats for Redeemer's Might.

Because of this particularly weird spread of stats, my Warrior/Paladin character has to use 200 STR/200 DEX/200 CHA/150 END in order to get the most out of the Paladin Avenger's full set of abilities, and this stat spread is sub-optimal now that the stat cap is at 250 each.

AQ	Post #: 21

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