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=AQ= Game Engine 45.77

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6/25/2022 1:20:14   
  Ianthe
 formerly In Media Res

 
quote:

Game Engine 45.77
- Decreased stat bonuses to blocking from DEX/8 + LUK/40 to DEX/50 + LUK/50
- Increased stat bonuses to BTH from stat*3/40 to stat*4/50
- Monster blocking has been increased and monster BTH decreased to compensate
- Increased STR's bonus weapon damage from STR/160 to STR/80
- Fixed some messaging when the engine estimates attack damage.

Currently in testing:
- Ranged damage now starts at x0.75 damage and increases by x0.06 per turn, to a max of x1.29 damage. This applies to weapon attack and spells. Skills+spells get "half" the modifier, starting at x0.875 and gaining x0.03 per turn, to a max of x1.145.
We've been trying for a while to make Ranged sufficiently different from Melee. A while ago I had an idea to turn rangers into skillcasters (x0.75 weapon damage but regenning SP every round) but that idea kinda fizzled.

With the last status update, someone Ranged damage ramping up over time, and it got a lot more traction. The goal is to make it deal the ~same damage as Melee over a 10-round standard monster. My gut feeling is that it's right now a bit low, but I'd like to hear what you all think ^^

< Message edited by In Media Res -- 6/25/2022 23:43:10 >
AQ  Post #: 1
6/25/2022 1:50:05   
Primate Murder
Member

I like the idea in theory, but in practice the 20-turn model is rather outdated. Battles rarely last 10 turns anymore, and that means that Ranged damage will remain perpetually underpowered.

Edit:
quote:

- Decreased stat bonuses to blocking from DEX/8 + LUK/40 to DEX/50 + LUK/50
- Monster blocking has been increased and monster BTH decreased to compensate

What does that make the current expected block rate? 15% with max Dex and Luck?

Edit2:
quote:

This applies to weapon attack and spells, with spells/skills getting half the boost.
Does that mean Ranged skills/spells start out at 0.75 damage and only gain 0.03 each turn? To a max of 1.05 damage after 10 rounds?

< Message edited by Primate Murder -- 6/25/2022 1:58:23 >
AQ DF  Post #: 2
6/25/2022 1:56:28   
  Ianthe
 formerly In Media Res

 

 Expected blocking is 85% with max LUK. DEX's bonus can fill in, but it's intended more a pure bonus, like STR's bonus to weapon damage.
quote:

Does that mean Ranged skills/spells start out at 0.75 damage and only gain 0.03 each turn? To a max of 1.05 damage after 10 rounds?
They start out at x0.875 and gain x0.03 per turn, to a max of x1.145

< Message edited by In Media Res -- 6/25/2022 2:11:20 >
AQ  Post #: 3
6/25/2022 1:58:46   
Primate Murder
Member

I see.

Thanks!
AQ DF  Post #: 4
6/25/2022 2:19:53   
Dreiko Shadrack
Member

quote:

Decreased stat bonuses to BTH from stat*3/40 to stat*4/50


Isn't that an increase though? 250*3/40 is 18.75, 250*4/50 is 20.

Damage ramp is an interesting identity, not sure how I feel about it yet. 0.75 for a start seems a bit too low, I think.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 5
6/25/2022 2:35:22   
RobynJoanne
Member
 
quote:

- Monster blocking has been increased and monster BTH decreased to compensate

Could we get the exact numbers for this? Monster BtH at level 150 was 38, and expected monster MRM was [0.259*Level + 15]=53.85~54 at level 150. How have these changed? I know not everyone cares about the nitty gritty, but I'd love to know. Thanks!

quote:

Ranged damage now starts at x0.75 damage and increases by x0.06 per turn, to a max of x1.29 damage. This applies to weapon attack and spells. Skills+spells get "half" the modifier, starting at x0.875 and gaining x0.03 per turn, to a max of x1.145.

Is this Ranged damage altogether, or is it just the stat damage component of Ranged damage?

Anyway, I'm really happy with this. Admittedly, I'm biased as someone who brought up the idea and has a rather infamous tendency to fight in excessively long battles that favor permanent buffs from ramping up.

Post #: 6
6/25/2022 2:35:23   
Shiba
Member

How does one go from *0.75 to *1.28 with 0.06 increments? It should at the very least be *1.29.

edit: I was given outdated info; it's already *1.29 in above's notes!

Also agree with the fact that AQ does not roll on a 20 turn model. Not exactly a fan of this bit, at the very least uncap it?
AQ  Post #: 7
6/25/2022 2:50:19   
Korriban Gaming
Banned


 - Dodge needs a complete rework/buff from what it currently is. Currently it's worthless. What is anyone supposed to do with 5 MRM from DEX alone?!
- STR could use a slightly bigger buff
- I like the idea of ramping damage but at least start from x1 or something. It's just too slow to be good. If you want to keep the current numbers for damage then don't nerf it's defensive capabilities in blocking. I'm not a fan of Rangers but this is a huge nerf to both it's offensive and defensive capabilities. Kinda counterintuitive if you want to promote the build with all the Ranger love we're seeing recently

quote:

I like the idea in theory, but in practice the 20-turn model is rather outdated. Battles rarely last 10 turns anymore, and that means that Ranged damage will remain perpetually underpowered.

Fully agree with this. Is it possible to change this old model/standard? Expecting players to spend 20 turns on 2 regular mobs isn't realistic and makes gameplay boring real fast. It would take literal hours to complete longer quests if one were expected to spend 20 turns on 2 regular mobs. They are there for the lore part of the story and should be able to be chunked down rather quickly so players can continue with the story/get on with the interesting fight that is the boss. They should be easy and fast to beat. If anything, 5 turns should be the max per regular mob and maybe 10 for bosses

< Message edited by Korriban Gaming -- 6/25/2022 3:39:56 >
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 8
6/25/2022 3:31:39   
Korriban Gaming
Banned


 I have no idea why people would see this as a buff. Sure you get 85% of blocking from LUK alone now but we're comparing apples to oranges. We used to be able to get a maximum of 37.5 MRM in the past. Now it's a measly 10. The 85% in the past is vastly different from the 85% now. MRM from stats needs a nerf but from 37.5 down to 10 is just massive. Tone it down to something like 25 or 20 would be a good middle ground imo
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 9
6/25/2022 9:10:34   
Jue Viole Grace
Member

Rangers always taking hits
AQ DF  Post #: 10
6/25/2022 11:35:54   
Cupquake
Member

Apologies if I'm misunderstanding something.

quote:

With the last status update, someone Ranged damage ramping up over time, and it got much more traction. The goal is to make it deal the ~same damage as Melee over a 10-round standard monster. My gut feeling is that it's right now a bit low, but I'd like to hear what you all think ^^


So warriors and rangers end up dealing the same damage over 10 turns. Makes sense within the model.
However, rangers now suffer greatly in the beginning when most battles arguably don't last more than 2 or 3 turns. Is this not indirect nerf in some way shape or form? I get the model thing in theory but in practice, the ramp-up thing feels unfair to rangers.



< Message edited by Cupquake -- 6/25/2022 12:00:51 >
Post #: 11
6/25/2022 11:47:14   
GwenMay
Member

I have several thoughts:

-On the blocking, I understand that removing blocking mostly from stats and reducing accuracy will end up with the same block rate overall. But it seems to me simpler to just make mrm a function mostly of player level. For example, if you wanted to reduce monster accuracy by 20 bth on average, you could just make player level give "level/7.5" mrm for the same result at 150. That would make the mrm calculations more intuitive to players, I think.

-Stat bth seems to have been increased, not decreased like it said. 250*3/40 = 18.75, while 250*4/50 = 20. Was it intended to be a bth increase? I'm fine with a bth increase lol.

-STR bonus being increased is great. I agree with Korriban it should be slightly higher --- STR/50 seems about right to make, basically a 5% increase at base str --- the MC standard. EDIT: I have been informed str/80 is closer to 5% boost. I'm fine with that then. If you adopt my idea below of having ranged ramp up faster and removing dex from blocking, it seems to me the faster ramp should roughly equal the str bonus damage.

-I think the new direction for ranged is a good idea. It's unique and gives ranged a clear identity. If the enemy has damage caps or you expect to mess around a few turns with buffs/debuffs or what not, ranged is much better now. Starting at magic weapon damage is a good idea, I would probably like to see it climb a little faster, say by 7.5% instead of 6%, so ranged hits melee damage par at turn 3. This is just because battles do tend to be faster than the turn model---the extra damage increase per turn could be thought of as a "free gift" like the str damage bonus, and adjusted accordingly. I know that DEX/50 mrm is DEX's current "free gift," but you could just remove that (and remove blocking from dex entirely) by further decreasing monster bth or just making player blocking entirely a function of level/x + luk/50. Also, if this is the new ranged model, I think DEX needs to be decoupled from pet/guest bth asap, so beastmasters aren't stuck playing with this model.

Overall though, great idea for giving ranged damage more identity imry!

< Message edited by GwenMay -- 6/25/2022 12:53:05 >
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 12
6/25/2022 12:43:25   
zippinbolts
Member

Adapt your build then. Don't equip a shield some turns and get more sources of healing. Using a 1 trick build isn't grounds to complain that an update is unfair. Also if monsters are hard to hit there's literally tons of bth lean items and bth boosters in the game.
AQ AQW  Post #: 13
6/25/2022 12:49:06   
arcanum37
Member

What in the world kinda build and gear are you using that you take that long?
AQ DF  Post #: 14
6/25/2022 13:06:03   
  Lorekeeper
And Pun-isher

 

 While the monster numbers may look bigger, expected accuracy rates are the same when taking the entire changelog into account. Edge cases certainly have changed, though, but the relevant ones have tipped in the player's favor: Monsters that heavily depended on a superlative Dexterity value for blocking have been effectively nerfed by this change. These changes alone, therefore, cannot correlate to nor cause such an increase in the duration of a battle against such a monster (Or in general).

In the case of Backlash, it would be difficult to account for the possibility of a slight loss in its effective proc accuracy (which entails not taking damage either) to kill a build when weapons that trade accuracy for power are widely preferred. What would be very unfair indeed would be hurting the accuracy of all other builds to exclusively benefit builds that only use backlash without changing gear according to the battle.
Post #: 15
6/25/2022 13:37:54   
ogelevil259
Member

I agree. I'm very frustrated with the new updates to accuracy. I really liked how stats worked in the previous build and I'm frustrated to see the direction things are headed in. Having specific enemies be noticeably dodgier then the rest made them stand out and forced you to adapt. But having everything dodge constantly accomplishes nothing but slowing down the game and frustrating the player and lowering the influence of stats makes building your character much less interesting.

I've only been playing the new build for a couple of hours but battles are such a slog that I think I'm just going to drop the game until they revert the change.

< Message edited by ogelevil259 -- 6/25/2022 14:13:53 >
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 16
6/25/2022 13:53:41   
Ninjaty
Member

quote:

What in the world kinda build and gear are you using that you take that long?

The kinds where I would be laughed out of the party, had this been an MMO. But hey, it's how I roll, so it's a good thing I mostly just stick to random combat. I guess I'll just have to change my stats up, and see if there is more equipment out there, that can help compensate for the shortcomings of the rest of my inventory.
quote:

While the monster numbers may look bigger, expected accuracy rates are the same when taking the entire changelog into account. Edge cases certainly have changed, though, but the relevant ones have tipped in the player's favor: Monsters that heavily depended on a superlative Dexterity value for blocking have been effectively nerfed by this change. These changes alone, therefore, cannot correlate to nor cause such an increase in the duration of a battle against such a monster (Or in general).

Thanks for the clarification, Cray.
Guess I just suck very badly, with my 20-40'ish rounds of combat, and never managed to pay attention to just how badly, or just didn't remember. Either could be true with my brain. I don't even remember if I ever finished changing my stats, after the stats update.
Post #: 17
6/25/2022 15:04:43   
red vector
Member

I just went through the Ice level at the Crossroads.

Lvl: 150

Weapon: Spear of Awe!!!

Armor: Frostval Merc, 3 hit attack

Shield: Frostval Merc Reflexes

Stats: 250 DEX, 175 LUK

Battles: Ice Blecch, Ice Cat, Tree Slugger, IceZard, Snow Bunny Zard, Ice Blecch, Snow Bunny Zard, Ice Zard, Tree Slugger, Ice Cat, Elder Yeti

Hit Rates: 89, 84, 74, 93, 69, 81, 64, 83, 77, 79, 92 but cut short by PWD

That's definitely a hit to what my accuracy was before this update, but it's still much better than what it was before the Stat update when I still had a four-stat spread. So it's a bit disappointing, but I can live with it.

Monster accuracy doesn't seem to have changed at all.

< Message edited by red vector -- 6/25/2022 15:22:57 >
AQ AQW  Post #: 18
6/25/2022 21:36:40   
  Ward_Point
Armchair Archivist


 Topics have been merged due to MRM increases being a direct effect of the Game Patch.

1) Players will feel some decrease in overall accuracy if using Mainstat + LUK.
When the Stat caps were increased to 250 many years ago, assumptions were not updated to reflect this. The game maintained old accuracy formulas. Players were hitting ~7.5% more often than expected, resulting in base accuracy rates of around 92% for 'Pure Builds'.

As a consequence of the above, the Defence Loss status became near useless. Most DefLoss Items sacrificed damage to inflict ~12 DefLoss, which would resulted in 104% hit rate, causing accuracy overflow and a loss of ~4% damage. There are some issues regarding infliction rate and the damage sacrifice, but overall DefLoss is relevant again.

2) Previously, Players didn't fully Dodge at 250 Luk. It required a combination of DEX & LUK to result in the assumed 15% chance to Dodge. However, since monsters used a stat distribution of 275/250/225, Monsters actually hit more often than the expected 85%, causing 'Effect on Block' shields to actually underperform. It resulted in any effect on Block shields becoming near-useless to certain builds.

Due to accuracy formulas being changed on both sides of the equation, both Players and Monsters dodge at ~15%. Which fits Standards assumptions fairly well. To balance out the Strength increase to Damage, DEX Builds have received a +5% chance to Block. This results in DEX Builds being slightly better at using effects that Trigger on Block, such as Titan's Fall for Counterattack, or UltraGuardian Shield for SP Regen on Block.

TLDR: Accuracy and Blocking are two sides to the same coin. Formulas were tweaked on both monster and player sides finally solving a mathematical issue was in the making for many years. All Builds now have a ~15% Block rate, and any build with Luck will have a ~85% hit rate on both monster and player sides.

I understand that players have voiced concern over battles feeling much longer than before due to the accuracy decrease. I would point out that Warriors received a 5% damage buff that counteracts the accuracy loss. Rangers have been overperforming since Stat Revamp part 1, and this should bring them back in line. Mages... Well... Have been doing a little too well for many years, although this statement is just the tip of the iceberg.

< Message edited by Ward_Point -- 6/25/2022 22:50:47 >
AQ  Post #: 19
6/26/2022 10:33:38   
Lv 1000
Member
quote:

This update also kills, and I mean kills, some builds such as Backlash. In these builds, you WANT the monster to hit you.

This is a wild exaggeration. Instead of being hit 100% of the time you will be hit 85-91% of the time, depending on the backlash gear that you are using. You might notice some inconsistency while farming monsters for gold, but for general use, there shouldn't be any noticeable to relevant difference.

As an additional note: All builds should have roughly the same expected dodge rate, backlash didn't adhere to this due to previous inherent issues with DEX. Decoupling the main chunk of MRM from DEX has corrected this for the betterment of all builds.
Post #: 20
6/26/2022 13:04:02   
ogelevil259
Member

quote:

1) Players will feel some decrease in overall accuracy if using Mainstat + LUK.
When the Stat caps were increased to 250 many years ago, assumptions were not updated to reflect this. The game maintained old accuracy formulas. Players were hitting ~7.5% more often than expected, resulting in base accuracy rates of around 92% for 'Pure Builds'.

As a consequence of the above, the Defence Loss status became near useless. Most DefLoss Items sacrificed damage to inflict ~12 DefLoss, which would resulted in 104% hit rate, causing accuracy overflow and a loss of ~4% damage. There are some issues regarding infliction rate and the damage sacrifice, but overall DefLoss is relevant again.


It doesn't matter if this is how accuracy was supposed to work originally, It doesn't change the fact that the current state of the game is slower and less fun then it was previously. I really don't see why the DefLoss status is important enough to have an influence on this decision. It's such a minor obscure status that I didn't even know it existed before you brought it up and it still doesn't seem useful enough to be relevant. If you really want it to be useful I think it would be better to alter the status rather than the stats.

quote:

2) Previously, Players didn't fully Dodge at 250 Luk. It required a combination of DEX & LUK to result in the assumed 15% chance to Dodge. However, since monsters used a stat distribution of 275/250/225, Monsters actually hit more often than the expected 85%, causing 'Effect on Block' shields to actually underperform. It resulted in any effect on Block shields becoming near-useless to certain builds.

Due to accuracy formulas being changed on both sides of the equation, both Players and Monsters dodge at ~15%. Which fits Standards assumptions fairly well. To balance out the Strength increase to Damage, DEX Builds have received a +5% chance to Block. This results in DEX Builds being slightly better at using effects that Trigger on Block, such as Titan's Fall for Counterattack, or UltraGuardian Shield for SP Regen on Block.


I fail to see the problem here. Why shouldn't different builds be able to use some types of equipment better than others? The only real issue I have with how those shields work is that some of them are no drop items even for players who can't use them. That's more of an issue with how the no drops were designed though. I think the UltraGuardian and Awe sets need to be reworked at some point but that's an issue for another time.

quote:

I would point out that Warriors received a 5% damage buff that counteracts the accuracy loss.


A plus 5% damage buff to warriors does not make up for the lowered accuracy because the best way to play is still to kill the monster in the first couple of turns and 5% more damage for just 1-3 turns is negligible compared to the risk of one of your big powerful skills missing and forcing you to spend more resources and turns compensating for it. Similarly, DEX builds being able to block 5% more than other builds is not only a huge nerf to what they were previously capable of but it's a pretty weak bonus in the first place because the best defense is still a good offense.

So in short, this update weakens most builds accuracy in exchange for giving the ability to block to builds that didn't care about blocking in the first place. It also makes it so that the players who actually want to have blocking as a major part of their strategy can't properly build for it.
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 21
6/26/2022 13:14:13   
Bannished Rogue
Member
quote:

Ward_Point said:
DEX Builds have received a +5% chance to Block.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm assuming that a DEX build is one that uses DEX as the MainStat? How will we see this "+5%"? I.e:

• Does it factor in once DEX reaches a certain threshold? (E.g: 5, 50, 100, 150, etc. DEX)

• Does the 5% act like the Palette protector (shield) of a random chance to dodge anything?

Is it a 5% extra of total stat MRM (DEX/50 + LUK/50)? DEX MRM exclusive, therefore being DEX/49.05?

Is it a flat +0.05 bonus the MRM total? (i.e: stats + armor + shield + status condition(s)= 80 MRM + 0.05 = 80.05 MRM true total)?

Also, is all of this in effect already? Couldn't tell from the original post.

< Message edited by Bannished Rogue -- 6/26/2022 18:24:33 >
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 22
6/26/2022 18:14:46   
CH4OT1C!
Member

The importance of conforming to a set of mathematical standards in AQ (i.e. balance) has been explained in detail elsewhere. We can't just violate or otherwise ignore these standards and assumptions without a very good reason.

@ogelevil259, I understand your frustration at the sudden minor reduction in accuracy. The reduction happened because, despite accuracy assumptions of 85%, the player was actually hitting closer to 92.5% of the time. This was a result of the stat caps being raised to 250 several years ago; not all assumptions were altered in line with the change. If we assume an average melee weapon attack to be worth 100% melee, this meant the player was outputting on average 100 * 92.5 / 85 = 108.82% Melee. This clearly violates game assumptions because the player is dealing 8.82% more damage than they should be, and needed to be corrected. Monster accuracy has also changed because it also needed to be brought into line.

The discrepancy in accuracy needed to be corrected because accuracy is a fundamental game mechanic. As brought up already, Defloss was made irrelevant in large part due to the accuracy increase. However, it also influences many more aspects of accuracy such as bth leans, weapon leans, bth boosting miscs and autohit mechanics (this list is non-exhaustive). The relevancy of many of these can be questioned when you can already hit almost 100% of the time. The increase had a significant distorting impact upon gameplay.

This represents an important reduction in mage power. Mages were dealing:
quote:

Magic weapon = 75 * 92 / 85 = 81.17% Melee
Spell: 200 * 92 / 85 = 216.47% Melee


Reducing the accuracy means Mages will lose 6.17% and 16.47% Melee to Magic weapon attacks and spells respectively. Warriors have, however, recently received a stat bonus to weapon damage worth 5% Melee and an accuracy reduction worth 8.8% Melee. They've taken a net loss, but it's small enough to be near impossible to tell with the stochastic effects involved in damage calculation.

So, why are people upset? The increase in Warrior damage in minimal, barely enough to be noticed due to those same stochastic effects in damage calculation. However, your chances of missing an attack prior to the update were 7.5%. This has now doubled to 15%. It's far more noticeable, especially with the compounding nature of accuracy (there's no in between, you either hit or miss).

This is a reduction, make no mistake. However, it is a necessary one for the importance for following the assumptions of fundamental game mechanics, as well as making certain mechanics more relevant once again. Simultaneously, it has also allowed more builds to follow a blocking pathway. This change could have been done without fixing the discrepancy in accuracy, to be clear.

EDIT: This is not to say there aren't any minor errors/teething troubles associated with the new changes. There could be further tweaks

< Message edited by CH4OT1C! -- 6/26/2022 18:45:14 >
AQ  Post #: 23
7/3/2022 22:00:16   
battlesiege15
Member

I'm not sure if I like monster MRM being so high :(
AQ AQW  Post #: 24
7/4/2022 10:59:39   
OG Ranger
Member
 
quote:

Combine this with monsters now dodging like Michael Jackson moonwalking on an oil slick


Ha. This made me wheeze. As for these engine updates as of recent:

1)I don't enjoy "ramp up" damage mechanics at all. They usually underperform compared to flat bonuses and considering damage wasn't the strong point of rangers this further hinders the damage output of build that can already struggle to do damage. In practice, rangers will do considerably lower damage until 5+ turns after the monster has already died. They will rarely see the damage boost. The only time this damage boost will apply is versus challenge bosses but....challenge bosses usually have damage caps. There is no practical benefit to this mechanic in the game currently.

2) Are we going to get any hypercritical items for pets soon? The change was made but nothing was made to fill this new gap. I'm a lucky beastmaster who relies on pet lucky strikes as a main source of damage so this change, until the gap is filled, really hurts the lucky beastmaster player base.

3)The additional blocking is welcomed as I've wanted monsters to be less of a punching bag for a long time.

4)Is DEX intended to be just another damage type with slight influence over other things? Currently, it seems considerably worse than STR and INT. INT gives magic damage and a mana pool. STR gives good AND consistent damage. DEX gives low damage (until after the monster has probably already died) and minor bonuses to blocking that aren't needed anymore. If this is the route that the staff wishes to take with DEX, in hopes of giving it a separate identity from STR, it needs something else.

5)I love what you guys have done with STR

6)Another question I have is whether the staff wants bows to differentiate from spears. They're both ranged but their playstyles are vastly different. Melee doesn't have this issue. Magic, despite having wands, doesn't have this issue either as wands are not a mage's main source of damage.


< Message edited by OG Ranger -- 7/6/2022 4:52:24 >
AQ  Post #: 25
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