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Game balance issues and suggested solutions regarding dodge playstyles

 
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4/15/2023 15:53:28   
Corvid
Member

There have been some productive discussions regarding dodge problems and solutions on the discord chat. The purpose of this thread is to index and continue this discussion in a forums thread.

The problems:
1. Dodge based equipment enable practically invincible playstyles with no counters (in the current gameplay). These invincible playstyles have both passive- damage support and passive- resource-recovery support upon dodging (in the form of various shields and miscs).
2. Dodge playstyles enable “boring” setups that allow for a single setup to be used on all monsters and bosses. There is little incentive to build inventories with equipment covering different elements.

The suggested solutions:
1. A soft or hard cap to dodging, this would allow for a small percentage chance for monsters to land hits, even at maximal MRM boosting. This scenario could be very punishing if hit while in equipment with the “wrong” element, as a single hit can do massive damage against poor resistances. This solution would encourage different equipment setups to be used on different monsters.
2. Diminishing returns for MRM stacking, again this would allow a small percentage chance for monsters to land hits even at maximal boosting. This solution would still reward dodge setups to maximize their MRM boosting equipment, but without becoming invincible in every situation while sitting in one set of equipment.
3. Tying dodge/MRM boosts to the monster’s elemental resistance. Again, this solution is another way to encourage multiple setups of equipment. An example of this solution is implemented in the new design of the luminous whiff staff.
4. Creating more monsters and bosses with autohit type attacks. Currently this is a very rare design feature.

These solutions are not mutually-exclusive and can be use in concert with each other to make a more dynamic play style.

< Message edited by Corvid -- 4/15/2023 16:01:37 >
AQ  Post #: 1
4/15/2023 20:11:05   
Sapphire
Member

To me, the issue is with how strong the MRM boosts, blinds, thecold, etc are. In addition, in the older days if you saw blocking boosts, it was usually to ONE MRM..not universal. The combination of omni defboosts and how strong they are is the issue *because blocking/accuracy is linear.* They need to go back and reduce/reformulate how much melee % blocking/blind, etc is worth and Re-sweep everything with those effects. In addition, these should be calculated for each MRM and then omni defboosts should be worth triple. Make it much more difficult to stack.

Think about this.....

On the flipside, defloss has almost always been element specific. Not even MRM specific, and here are IRC 3 or 4 omni defloss effects in the entire game to the monster.

Look at mindbreaker shield. It's NINE defloss for 2 turns and -20 save is worth 21% melee. (If I'm reading the info subs correctly) This is 18 total. 18 = 21% melee. Yet the blind is worth 55.5% melee and is 28.34 blind for 2 turns, or 56.68 in total. So 1 blind > 1% melee.

On a linear platform, that's too much.

Now, let's set that aside.

There are ways to mitigate this. And monster power compared to players keep widening. Player power is being powercrept as we speak. And monster Dex only serves to help with initiative, and nothing more unless they have a ranged attack.

While auto hit is one way to help for sure, we don't want every monster auto hitting every hit.

So what if we find something for monster Dex that helps? What if it's a Ranger mechanic? What if one simple mechanic can help both define Rangers identity and provide *some*mitigation by giving monsters something, too?

This is partially why I have said and still say Dex/25% to all attacks auto hit mechanic. No damage penalty. For rangers, code down ADPT to account for a 10% rate auto hit that brings the ADPT back up to normal, and include this with whatever other damage identity is decided.
For monsters, those with dex will bypass your blocking stack 10% of the time (if they have 250 dex) so it's not going to be some sort of universal tactic.


IMO, this is more practical than some wholesale band-aid, recode from scratch, or some other "fix". It's an issue, yes, but I think some new mechanics and a bit of backtracking with how such effects are valued in terms of melee %.
Post #: 2
4/16/2023 2:39:12   
Aura Knight
Member

Rather than making dodge itself less reliable the other route to go would be a reduction in the effect damage paired with it. I like backlash so this is tough to suggest but that's where the penalty can be. I disagree that evasion tactics are boring. Would also disagree this is an issue of balance and more so one of individual impatience. Being accustomed to speed may give bias towards favoring it. Dodge is the opposite. Monsters can get auto-hit rolls too, which while annoying to us would make dodge less busted.

AQ DF AQW  Post #: 3
4/16/2023 10:58:01   
Corvid
Member

Thank you for the feedback here are a few thoughts:

quote:

Rather than making dodge itself less reliable the other route to go would be a reduction in the effect damage paired with it
.

The issue of damage associated with backlash effects is a separate but related issue. This thread is specifically addressing the topic of quickly reaching unhittable levels of MRM with a narrow selection of equipment.

quote:

I disagree that evasion tactics are boring. Would also disagree this is an issue of balance and more so one of individual impatience.


I should clarify my intended usage of “boring.” The gameplay of dodge itself can be very dynamic and fun. However in the current state of balance, the player is not incentivized for switching up equipment choices. For example, ghost costume, titan’s fall, summoning stone, the same pet and guest (bun bannarett), and the same weapon (such as MADM) can be used on every single monster without any significant concern.

quote:

Monsters can get auto-hit rolls too, which while annoying to us would make dodge less busted.


Agreed, this is one potential solution that can be implemented selectively/ in concert with others.



____

@sapphirecatalyst:

I like your suggestion of possibly tying dodge to a single option of melee/magic/ranged, instead of all three. This would absolutely make dodge play styles and equipment choices more dynamic and varied from battle to battle. I think it would be a good solution to be implemented alongside others.

I also agree that the cost/value of dodge effects has to be re-evaluated. Right now the effect is underpaid for. Your reference to the cost of defloss is a good point of comparison.

< Message edited by Corvid -- 4/16/2023 11:05:46 >
AQ  Post #: 4
4/17/2023 7:38:47   
ruleandrew
Member
 

One idea to fix dodge playstyle
Actual combat defence boost is [0.5 + 0.5 [(1 - A) / (1 - B)]] * (combat defence boost)

A is character actual elemental resistance.
B is character expected elemental resistance.

Conditions
B is less or equal to A.
A is less or equal to 1.

Example
Monster attack character with fire element. Character actual fire resistance is 30 %. Character expected fire resistance is 14 %. Combat defence boost is 10.
Actual combat defence boost: 9.07 corrected to 2 decimal places


< Message edited by ruleandrew -- 4/17/2023 8:14:11 >
AQ  Post #: 5
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