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Friday, September 1st Design Notes: Arena at the Edge of Time: Masters of Wind

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9/1/2023 20:18:55   
Laeon val Observis
Member
 
quote:


Friday, September 1, 2023
Arena at the Edge of Time: Masters of Wind
Hey there, heroes!

The Displaced Fates 2 board has appeared at the Inn at the Edge of Time! This week, take on the first challenge of this board: The Masters of Wind!


Take on the leader of the Shadow of the Wind ninja clan, Thyton, and the enigmatic cricket Greg in this week's challenge!

Will you be swept away? Or will you stand firm in the face of their storm?

Defeat them to earn Thyton's Rune Blade and the Honda's Legacy EX trinket to power up your Ninja skills!

Head over to the Inn at the Edge of Time using the portal in the sky in Falconreach to take on this new challenge!


This week also sees some adjustments to some weapon specials and the Ninja class!
  • Damage resistance is now capped at 90% for players. Enemies can still gain up to 99% damage resistance.
  • The Blade of Destiny special has been changed.
    • All versions: On-Attack special has been changed to have a 20% chance for 3 hits of 100% damage.
    • Level 90 version: On-Hit special has been changed to a 10% chance of +5% damage resistance for 2 turns. If your hit does Light damage, the activation rate is doubled to 20%.

  • The Ice Scythe special has been changed.
    • The On-Hit special has been changed to a 15% chance to apply -10 Ice for 3 turns.
    • Note: Vanilla Ice Katana and Frozen Claymore On-Attack specials have not been changed.

  • Ninja has recieved a number of adjustments:
    • Catalytic Flow base damage reduced from 175% to 100%
    • Catalytic Flow's +Boost effect has been reduced from +25% to +20%
    • Shadow Seal/Seal Venom's base damage has been reduced from 140% to 120%.
    • All skills that scale with venoms will now additionally scale with Orochi Venom from Honda's Legacy and Honda's Legacy EX.
    • Shadow Seeker will now count Orochi Venom as a burst venom, however, the bonus from burst venoms is still capped at 3.

  • The Summon Honda trinket has been renamed "Honda's Legacy" and has been adjusted.
    • From 3 hits for 120% damage to 4 hits for 120% damage.
    • Poison resist has been reduced from 25 to 10.
    • DoT effect has been renamed "Orochi Venom", and effect has been changed to 25% base damage for 8 turns.
    • Now counts as a burst venom for Ninja skills.

Also this week, September's seasonal items have arrived!



The Sunken Veil cosmetic helm is now available! This spooky helm matches perfectly with this week's returning seasonal Sunken Plunderer! Other seasonal items have returned, as well!

The Wildheart Crest is the first in this month's set of ranger themed cosmetic items! Make sure to stay updated for the rest of the set coming later this month!


And that's all for this week!

DF AQW  Post #: 1
9/1/2023 22:42:10   
awe921
Member

Aw man, I'm a bit bummed about the Ninja nerfs, especially since I think they were bar none the strongest free NDA class after their rework. In fact I wanted to hop onto the Ninja thread (does anyone even use those anymore?) and just gush about how good Ninja felt to play.. I'll definitely live though- the core aspect of bursting with Vanish > Shadow Strike seems intact, even though that 5% Boost loss might be a bit painful. But we'll see!

It's really awesome that we finally get to fight Thyton though. I wonder if they'll have elements of Ninja appear as well, just like how Duskbolt was essentially the reworked Ninja turned into a boss? Hmmmm...

v I just don't have the money. I apologize if my comment came across as obnoxious, I will refrain from commenting about NDA stuff in the future. Thank you.

< Message edited by awe921 -- 9/2/2023 11:02:26 >
Post #: 2
9/2/2023 2:37:02   
Laeon val Observis
Member
 

 ^Which begs the question, what is holding you back from becoming a DA holder short of whacky inter-currency conversions since all reimagined story classes have varying degrees of capability to hold their own in the modern combat standards such that the 1.8k DC and Chrono classes are just for diversifying a player's skill kit on most occasions, especially for those who are ambitious to become Inn fighters (pretty much I can smell some revisions needed on the latest Inn fight. Planet Internet has proven my vision correct that it's another KAA territory. Can't have another ExRav)? Clearly the sole reason that Ninja's direct damage output had to be adjusted is to make sure it doesn't go overblown with the finally seen update to its pseudo-Artifact of a trinket. Yeah, sure the trinket's specs too had to be toned down so as to be more modernized, but it at least compensates for the fact that just like DL, it won't be able to enjoy Cannon, Unity, or C7 shenanigans. Plus, it also cements the DoT assassination gig that it has always tried to showcase unlike the failure that is Pyro (Ninja should still be able to handle a DEX/INT hybrid configuration despite the changes). And before blurting out tirades of turning a story class a bit p2w, Ranger has long had that problem as distant as its Ashendal-era revision, and DK still has equally long echoes of that despite the recent changes to its skillset.

Now, for the on-hit weapon special changes. Ice Scythe, while feeling like a nerf, is more like revised it to be more general such that even classes that lack multihit specialties can benefit from it. BoD90's change is weird to say the least. Perhaps it'll see some use while still emphasizing the need for Ultimate Destiny weps or OUK. TBH though, considering my history with attempting to ape Inn vids, I barely feel the magic of -30 or so to whatever elements as even just relying on BoA, Twilly's staff, and the occasional Lost Starsword of Destiny still carries me to victory (Case in point, Guardian Dragon in Willowshire Burns died a turn earlier on me just by relying on BoA and LSoD on the on-hit RNGs, something that frequently occurs on runs that I win), so I feel these changes could help lessen the gambling nature that was favoring multihit classes (which makes me wonder now how biased was AstralCodex's data on that department during that one occasion that they became... more "vocal", if I were to be a bit playful with words... during the previous instance that IS got a revision on its effect). Still the odd chip that can be beneficial when it occurs, but not too potent enough that it distorts combat, particularly boss, design. And also, at this point, also in the direction to find a fair compromise between direct damage and DoTs.

< Message edited by Laeon val Observis -- 9/2/2023 2:39:49 >
DF AQW  Post #: 3
9/2/2023 8:23:56   
TFS
Helpful!


 I'm really not a fan of how weapon specials have more or less been getting phased out of the game - or, rather, reduced to negligible optimizations - over the past few years. There was formerly a lot of strategtic merit in choosing an accessory skill that'd complement both your class and what you were trying to accomplish over the course of a fight, and it was always something I wished the game would have expanded more on as it became more combat-orented, rather than just kicked to the curb. Prior to this update, Ice Scythe was the last one that provided tangible benefits to the outcome of a fight (barring two specific DC rares) and I would much rather have seen there be competing specials at a similar power level than just drastically nerfing Ice Scythe.

If there's a balancing issue around the player being too strong then, like, just nerf Seaweed and Hardtack. Hell, nerf Seaweed and Hardtack anyway. They work on every build in every situation, have no opportunity cost because every other food item is worthless in comparison, have drastically overpowered effects that make even the strongest class skills blush, don't interact with any other mechanics in the game, and offer no strategic merit - if anything, they encourage/enable playing badly. It's downright silly that items with strategic merit are removed out of the blue while this silliness is fine. Are things only allowed to make the game easier if they aren't fun to use?

< Message edited by TFS -- 9/2/2023 8:24:17 >
DF  Post #: 4
9/2/2023 9:36:08   
DragonKeeper
Member

Hardtack and Seaweed helped me to defeat the Swan Song Extreme challenge. I used them as a buffer and I might not have needed them but my HP bar was getting close to empty. Now if Seaweed and Hardtack are eliminated, then maybe these extremely difficult boss's power outputs can be reduced?

< Message edited by DragonKeeper -- 9/2/2023 9:38:07 >
DF  Post #: 5
9/2/2023 11:35:12   
The ErosionSeeker
*insert cheesy pun here*
quote:

Prior to this update, Ice Scythe was the last one that provided tangible benefits to the outcome of a fight (barring two specific DC rares) and I would much rather have seen there be competing specials at a similar power level than just drastically nerfing Ice Scythe.

-30 Ice essentially meant that your highest hitcount skill was a secondary -res effect. So any class with innate -50 res now effectively has -80 res. Chaosweaver went from -20 to -50. If your class didn't have hitcount, it was a coinflip that translated to thousands of damage. Rerolling fights every time you didn't get the trigger is unfun. There wasn't even any "match the special to your class" so much as "ok use -ice, if you can't use -ice use [significantly worse option]"
I could definitely see hardtack/seaweed get bumped up to 31 turns of Stuffed. VIK/FC/Aww/etc probably also nerfed because lol, lmao even.
I'm a little sad about this change because it kills a lot of SSEX and other hard challenge clears, but powercreep will always move forward.


< Message edited by The ErosionSeeker -- 9/2/2023 11:40:10 >
DF AQW  Post #: 6
9/2/2023 13:40:00   
TFS
Helpful!
quote:

-30 Ice essentially meant that your highest hitcount skill was a secondary -res effect. So any class with innate -50 res now effectively has -80 res. Chaosweaver went from -20 to -50.

Which was explicitly a component of Chaosweaver's balance/design at the time it launched. I was there too, and I know what Ice Scythe does.
This is also a smaller proportional damage increase than a class without any native -res would get from Ice Scythe, so I'm not sure what the point of the example is.
quote:

Rerolling fights every time you didn't get the trigger is unfun.

Which is completely unchanged. This is also an argument for improving the mechanic, not making it less lucrative.
quote:

There wasn't even any "match the special to your class" so much as "ok use -ice, if you can't use -ice use [significantly worse option]"

Beyond the specific instance of Ice Scythe, other 'viable' weapon specials that have been more or less removed from the game over the past five years include Naturecast, Firebrand, Candy Dagger / Cobalt Lights, Grove Tender, and basically every racial - just off the top of my head. Regardless of whether each of these removals were justified, they all competed with (or synergized with) Ice Scythe in a way that made gameplay drastically less linear than its current (and presumably future) state. "Everyone uses Ice Scythe, but now they won't use Ice Scythe anymore!" doesn't actually solve any percieved linearity problem as now everyone is just going to use Twilly Staff.
And this is also a problem solved by providing competitors to Ice Scythe (ex, a better healing weapon that can only trigger on Water hits) rather than simply removing it.
quote:

I could definitely see hardtack/seaweed get bumped up to 31 turns of Stuffed.

Which does not solve the problem or make it any less poorly designed. It's still a full heal, slapped onto any class, that doesn't even take a cast turn. It still prevents food from ever being a real game mechanic for as long as it's mutually exclusive with a free full heal. This is not remotely comparable to the treatment weapon specials have gotten.
quote:

it kills a lot of SSEX and other hard challenge clears,

The fact that a turn 1 Seaweed check and nothing else was the only way to make Seaweed more than just a cheat button is hilariously telling about how compatible it is with DragonFable's gameplay.

< Message edited by TFS -- 9/2/2023 15:42:06 >
DF  Post #: 7
9/2/2023 15:50:15   
The ErosionSeeker
*insert cheesy pun here*
quote:

Which was explicitly a component of Chaosweaver's balance/design at the time it launched. I was there too, and I know what Ice Scythe does.
This is also a smaller proportional damage increase than a class without any native -res would get from Ice Scythe, so I'm not sure what the point of the example is.

It's possible that ChW was not "allowed" to have more innate -res because 19 hits on the attack meant it would almost always guarantee IS anyway. Compared to Techno/DK which have -50 but lack the hitcount to consistently proc IS.
Given that essentially every class is getting innate -res, phasing out IS means everything doesn't have to warp around the one weapon special that enables huge damage swings.
quote:

Which is completely unchanged. This is also an argument for improving the mechanic, not making it less lucrative.

We have seen an improved version of this mechanic, Rolith's Hammer, but it requires 10 hits which means it will still disproportionately benefit high hitcount classes. Anything more complex than that will have to use some new system like counting number of turns active.
quote:

Regardless of whether each of these removals were justified, they all competed with (or synergized with) Ice Scythe in a way that made gameplay drastically less linear than its current (and presumably future) state.

It's not exactly healthy for all DPT numbers to warp around a single weapon special. If there were more things that competed with IS it would be less linear, but everyone knows that IS is optimal and everything afterwards is secondary. It's like 23% more damage vs -30 res, 20% more with -50. To put into perspective how strong IS/LS are, enabling DK to use light was roughly as strong as all of the class buff numbers combined. I like IS because it was really powerful, I'm not going to pretend it wasn't absurd.
Twilly doesn't do damage and the equivalent you should be talking about is 4oJ, which is at the very least fixed to a consistent DoT that's only increased by DEX.
quote:

Which does not solve the problem or make it any less poorly designed. It's still a full heal, slapped onto any class, that doesn't even take a cast turn. It still prevents food from ever being a real game mechanic for as long as it's mutually exclusive with a free full heal. This is not remotely comprable to the treatment weapon specials have gotten.

Well ok, seaweed and hardtack can be a 1000 HP /smaller number heal, ignores -health, 31 turn cooldown. It doesn't really matter to me.
quote:

The fact that a turn 1 Seaweed check and nothing else was the only way to make Seaweed more than just a cheat button is hilariously telling about how compatible it is with DragonFable's gameplay

Everyone knows food is broken. Was talking about IS/LS. Crucial to WDL and DK SSEX clears. Funny enough, IS might not be essential for Exosuit.
DF AQW  Post #: 8
9/2/2023 16:07:08   
Laeon val Observis
Member
 

 Catachan Barking Tog (Now you forced my hand to do greater evil. At this point, telling me that I made these forums quieter is just a complement), while your opening of can of worms towards Hero Diet does open some discussion, do not try to derail by trying to smokescreen a blatantly flawed application of root cause analysis. Perhaps you want to review that those weapon specials that you're trying to defend are just as optional as trinket skills. By that virtue, they shouldn't be popping up in the radar of combat too much. If they have to make it so, then make it that it's diverse -particularly that plenty of those specials are accessible in game, not locked behind a DC bundle offer- instead aggravating the dopamine overdose that is "hurr durr, me like muh beeg demij", that's long overdue for a detox, or make them go along the lines that DK items and Summon Honda do. Not especially so that there are vids there that show "IS proc on Turn X is decisive" schtick, a certainly unhealthy way of advocating the forcing Class X to win Challenge Y that is already tantamount to the days Guests were being used to force wins with CW. Sure, -EleRes sill has some outlier curve to it (because of "customer satisfaction" (cue the SpongeBob "Imagination" rainbow")), but not as much anymore.

Thus I've said all my as neutral as possible points on these changes. I shan't participate further.

< Message edited by Laeon val Observis -- 9/2/2023 16:12:32 >
DF AQW  Post #: 9
9/2/2023 19:19:38   
TFS
Helpful!
quote:

Given that essentially every class is getting innate -res

You mean, the half-dozen most recent classes that all do the same thing
quote:

It's not exactly healthy for all DPT numbers to warp around a single weapon special.

Fundamental misunderstanding of the quoted text. DPT numbers 'warp around a single weapon special' as a result of competing weapon specials being removed from the game. Competition also doesn't necessarily mean the same effect (damage) - the aforementioned example of Cobalt Lights was way more prevalent than Ice Scythe back when it existed and didn't have a remotely similar effect. This is why the best classes will exclusively use Twilly Staff over the single other existent option in the future, or prioritize Twilly Staff while using them in tandem.
You're looking at this as a justification for Ice Scythe specifically, and not a justification for a mechanic that has been reduced to just Ice Scythe specifically - and now nothing. Joke effects like the aforementioned "crit every 10th hit when you have a 50%(+) chance to crit every individual hit anyway" do not justify the inventory slot (or even the effort of scrolling and clicking) required to use them, nor the mechanic's existence at all.
Obviously this issue is not localized to this specific release, but the decreasing complexity of player tools is something I would have hoped to be ameliorated with time rather than made worse. This release demonstrates to me that this is unlikely.
quote:

Everyone knows food is broken.

I'm not convincing you of anything you don't know. Convince me that game balance is a priority / good justification to remove [literally anything] for as long as Seaweed/Hardtack exist.

< Message edited by TFS -- 9/2/2023 19:24:49 >
DF  Post #: 10
9/2/2023 20:25:30   
Lee
Member
 
quote:

^Which begs the question, what is holding you back from becoming a DA holder short of whacky inter-currency conversions since all reimagined story classes have varying degrees of capability to hold their own in the modern combat standards


The Tier List that you linked assumes a 600 point Dragon, Dragon Amulet Holder, Elemental Unity etc. It's not outright stated but it is safe to assume that. Everything short of outside crutches like Seaweed/Hardtack.

The person was mentioning their experiences as a Non-Dragon Amulet Holder using Ninja. Outside the passive aggressive comment you made, essentially shooting them down - NDA in general will feel considerably different to DA. Try out Ninja without using the DA locked skills and you'll see what I mean.

quote:

Yeah, sure the trinket's specs too had to be toned down so as to be more modernized, but it at least compensates for the fact that just like DL, it won't be able to enjoy Cannon, Unity, or C7 shenanigans.


Ninja could (before this weeks Updates) and can make use of Cannon and Runestone in it's burst rotation by replacing either Seal or Basilisk without little to no issue. I've done this multiple amounts of times by preparing a Ninja AARGH document - one that's been postponed due to a few mistakes I made as well as time. Elemental Unity and Corrupted Seven are still usable as well - I just mentioned Cannon and Runestone (Eggsalted works too), due to those trinkets having the largest % of damage and thus used for "nuking".

~~~~~~~

In regards to the Scythe changes. Overall, I'm happy it happened. It's been a long time coming as we all know and in my opinion, it's been a hassle in regards to balancing on bosses. My main issue with the Scythes is that some fights where you need a Scythe proc requires you to restart the fight until it happens, which can range from pretty fast to absolutely slow based on your hitcount. But I think we all know that.

With that in mind though, there are some fights where you borderline needed or wanted an Scythe proc. For example, Eggsalted Chickencow has a turn 28 countdown. Ignoring the turn cap as well as it's large damage output, it's a fight that you want to finish as soon as possible due to being completely at the whim of Unbound and Unwound. Rolling an Unbound can easily extend the fight out further or just result in a reset - same with Unwound.

Another example of this is Uaanta, Avatar of the Makers. You're completely at the whim of her RNG rotation, she can roll Earth (-180 MPM for 3 turns inclusive) into Energy (sets HP to 1 if she lands her hit). Scythe procs help somewhat alleviate this issue. Granted, her innate 50 All res makes this fight considerably more irritating alongside her RNG rotation that you have no control over outside a single turn telegraph.

A third example is everyone's favorite Tomix, Weaver on a Mission. We all know this point was going to come up.

Tomix is someone you want to remove as soon as possible due to Drakonnan's scaling Boost/Bonus/All (you can use Chompers to offset it but some classes need Dragon's Scout/Overcharge for Tomix). Even ignoring Tomix's Phase 2 which is another monster/issue of it's own. Scythe procs somewhat help remedy this boss fight because you have little to no counterplay.

I tried sticking to three of the most recent Inn fights that were relevant to the Scythe changes which are now inadvertently more difficult in general. One can argue that these bosses don't matter or that they're just oddities to which I'll point out that, does it mean we should just ignore these in regards to balancing?

I'm not trying to make a case to restore Scythe procs back to their original numbers. I'm trying to point out that some fights are or feel as if they're balanced around Scythe procs and request that they be tweaked in some form. For example, reducing Tomix's maximum HP and his Phase 2 threshold. Reducing Eggsalted's maximum HP as well as Uaanta's maximum HP or reducing her innate All res.

~~~~~~~~
As for the new fight, I've yet to do it fully to provide proper feedback. Decided to make a new reply so feedback isn't lost in the backlog.

< Message edited by Lee -- 9/3/2023 20:02:15 >
Post #: 11
9/3/2023 1:00:11   
DragonKeeper
Member

Since the DeathKnight improvements, the weapon special nerfs do not bother me too much. But I just hope that these weapon special nerfs were well thought out and not a whimsical seat of the pants sort of thing. I would like to see the math and the equations and the reasoning behind them.
DF  Post #: 12
9/3/2023 1:54:53   
  Verlyrus
DragonFable Boxcat


 Ice Scythe nerf was something I wanted to do for years now. I previously refrained because, as expected, some people are very vocal about its remobal. But it has been way too centralizing for a random 1k gold weapon, to the point that the Ice element in general cannot get stronger weapons or it would have ended up insane. To say that it had actual competitors outside of situations where it simply wasn't viable , or effects were straight up bugged, is disingenuous. Even if it did have such competitors, that it was the last one standing is clearly an indication that it should be adjusted.

I experimented with the Blade of Destiny having the same style of special and it just confirmed my thoughts.

Hitcount specials are a major issue, and -30 res specials are too powerful. As seen with the blade of destiny's new special, as well as the lance from the previous challenge, we are experimenting with new specials that are still tied to elements.

The changes are by no means whimsical. The design space needs to be opened, and things that are ridiculously powerful for no reason need to be adjusted. If there are other specials that need to be adjusted, then they will, too.

Food is powerful, yes, but it is meant to be. Food is intended to be an optional tool for players to use if they feel like they're struggling. I dont think the intent of "Ice Scythe", a random 1000 gold weapon, was to be game defining and game design centralizing. The difference is pretty evident.

The new special system needs work, certainly, and hitcount and specials interaction i want to find a way to work around.
To build up to and evovle into healthy system requires a base reset. Just releasing randomly busted specials all over and hoping things work out is not viable, and trying to design challenges in such a system is also not viable, as it becomes a matter of which class can abuse which special best, and then how each fight interacts with specials, rather than the player interacting with the fight.

< Message edited by Verlyrus -- 9/3/2023 2:04:45 >
AQ MQ  Post #: 13
9/3/2023 2:07:36   
Cryomancer
Member

I'm mostly fine with the Ice Scythe changes - whilst I think it's a bit of a band-aid solution (I would have preferred the nerf to be combined with a way to consistently proc the special akin to Rolith's Backup Hammer to eliminate RNG from the special entirely), Ice Scythe getting nerfed does rectify the biggest issue with the special in that the old Ice Scythe special introduced a degree of RNG to fights that was impactful enough that not getting an Ice Scythe proc was often game-ending - the damage nerf means that this RNG is now nowhere near as impactful as before.

The issue I do have is that there are a few fights that seem designed with the expectation that Ice Scythe is used. The most notable examples are Uaanta, Tomix, Eggsalted Chickencow, Achilles and Suki, all of which either have significant amounts of All resistance and high HP (Uaanta and Suki) or "timer mechanics" where the boss becomes significantly more dangerous (if not outright impossible) if they manage to survive for a certain number of turns (Tomix, Achilles and Eggsalted Chickencow) - and the mechanics means that Ice Scythe being nerfed in turn inadvertently makes these bosses noticeably more difficult to defeat. The solution, however, is not to unnerf Ice Scythe and reintroduce an unhealthy degree of RNG to fights, but to nerf the bosses that are now potentially problematic with the Ice Scythe nerf.

< Message edited by Cryomancer -- 9/3/2023 2:11:03 >
Post #: 14
9/3/2023 2:15:09   
  Verlyrus
DragonFable Boxcat


 The Ice Scythe nerf is certainly a bandaid. But it is necessary. Whatever the next Ice special is, it will not be from a random shop for 1k gold.

If some fights are too difficult now, we can, believe it or not, adjust them. :O
AQ MQ  Post #: 15
9/3/2023 7:32:02   
TFS
Helpful!


 There's not much point in continuing to litigate this but my opinion isn't changed. I'd like to clarify that food wasn't brought up as a whataboutism, it just seems strange to me that Ice Scythe (and others before it) was nerfed for making the game easier, when that's the same justification for keeping food. There's an optional mechanic that makes the game easier and is fun to use, and an optional mechanic that makes the game easier but isn't fun to use; if one of these should have to go it seems like a pretty one-sided choice to me.

Another point I'd like to throw out there is that Ice Scythe provided a global offensive floor that kept the majority of classes in the game (ie old, bad ones) on the fringes of usability, if the player was dedicated enough. Most classes in the game are just too weak to be used for a quarter of all releases and these are the ones that benefitted the most from being able to use Ice Scythe. This also isn't localized to just Ice Scythe (Trinkets also used to help here and are now just stat sticks, same with past specials like Grove Tender and Cobalt Lights), but again without a crutch people are just going to continue being funneled into the same handful of meta classes (ironically enough, the three best classes in the game either can't use or don't need specials in the first place).
It's been posited in the past that weapon specials disproportionately buff the paid (high hitcount) classes, but after its removal I'd take the opposite stance and argue that the likes of Epoch or Pyromancer are the ones that don't need Ice Scythe - the likes of Pumpkinlord and Shadow Hunter are the ones that do.
quote:

to the point that the Ice element in general cannot get stronger weapons or it would have ended up insane.

I'm also not sure what the meaning of this is, unless there are plans to make to make an Ice Version of Uragiri/Veraad or something. While some are clearly better than others, the offensive difference between each of the +10/-20 weapons is largely negligible. Exalted Apotheosis, the 'best' of them, is only a 6% damage increase on average over the 'worst' of them, Necro Paragon Soulblade, which is 5 levels below it - hardly insane.
quote:

Uaanta, Tomix, Eggsalted Chickencow, [...] and Suki

I find it funny that these specifically are the ones brought up, as I'd consider them to be some of the worst-designed fights in the game regardless of Ice Scythe - though similar to old classes, that's not really an argument for Ice Scythe's design and more an example of how many loads it bears in the game's current ecosystem.

You can also emulate the old effect by using Ice Gem instead of [trinket that procs IS/IS], proccing ISIS on a skill, and just eating the stat loss if you're struggling to burst (eg, on Tomix), though this will ironically end up increasing the number of rerolls you'll need for the same effect.
Also, a recent bugfix that flew under the radar is Zard Tartare, which provides a global damage buff that's comparable in strength to Ice Scythe but is applicable to every class in every situation; it's just mutually exclusive with the free full heals so there's no reason to use it besides pride. All of these fights are still more readily burstable today than they were on launch, it's just implemented in a less fun way.

< Message edited by TFS -- 9/3/2023 10:16:39 >
DF  Post #: 16
9/3/2023 10:51:35   
The ErosionSeeker
*insert cheesy pun here*
quote:

There's an optional mechanic that makes the game easier and is fun to use, and an optional mechanic that makes the game easier but isn't fun to use

You still haven't explained how IS is "fun".
The difference between Apo and NPSB is 6%, while the difference between triggering IS is 20-30%. How do you not think that's unreasonable on a literal junk book 3 weapon from before challenge fights existed?
DF AQW  Post #: 17
9/3/2023 11:42:41   
  Verlyrus
DragonFable Boxcat


 Food is intended to be overpowered, random weapon specials are not.

To clarify more on the plans for the future, removing Ice Scythe's dominance flattens the special playing field a bit. This allows us to start assessing and changing how specials work and how we want them to fit into combat- the old system, while it was emergent and had some interesting points, was a bit too nebulous and unfocused, leading to things being overly centralizing.

I do want to make more interesting weapon specials, but it will take time. And having a new baseline, while a quick fix, helps to have as a starting point.
AQ MQ  Post #: 18
9/3/2023 16:08:49   
TFS
Helpful!
quote:

You still haven't explained how IS is "fun".

Should be self-evident, we're talking about the same game. Combining different skills for an effect greater than the sum of their parts is fun; rerolling fights, while more rewarding to pull off up to a certain point, is not. Re-optimizing your stats for a variable goal is fun; applying strict buffs, outside of the combat menu, using a limited consumable, without using up a turn in a turn-based game, is not.
quote:

The difference between Apo and NPSB is 6%, while the difference between triggering IS is 20-30%. How do you not think that's unreasonable on a literal junk book 3 weapon from before challenge fights existed?

As admissed by multiple people in this thread - including yourself - content released after Ice Scythe is balanced around, or reliant on, Ice Scythe. Is Exalted Apotheosis unreasonable becsuse it's a 20-30% damage increase over Twinblades of Glory? What a silly non-sequitor.

This is also a silly point to begin with, as the Destiny weapons have the same average damage as Exalted Apotheosis and have had no professed issue with Blade of Destiny - so much so, in fact, that the notion of 'stronger' Ice weapons is the labeled design restriction here and not the 'stronger' Light weapons that already exist.
quote:

Food is intended to be overpowered, random weapon specials are not.

Sure, I just don't understand why the almighty Seaweed gets this special treatment and not the entire system designed around applying auxillary effects to the player's attacks. I'm not sure it's even 'food is supposed to be overpowered' as much as it is 'the earth-shattering, heaven-rending Seaweed, slayer of gods and breaker of fates, is supposed to be overpowered' - other food items like Zard Burgers and Red Fruit have been nerfed in recent years explicitly because of their use in Inn challenges. I'm also not sure Ice Scythe, a weapon with an entire main story arc about how it's the strongest Ice weapon ever made, is less arbitrary than some seaweed found in a random walkaround quest from 2015 lol.
quote:

To clarify more on the plans for the future, removing Ice Scythe's dominance flattens the special playing field a bit. This allows us to start assessing and changing how specials work and how we want them to fit into combat- the old system, while it was emergent and had some interesting points, was a bit too nebulous and unfocused, leading to things being overly centralizing.

I do want to make more interesting weapon specials, but it will take time. And having a new baseline, while a quick fix, helps to have as a starting point.

If this is the case, then I'm definitely looking forward to it and it addresses my concerns. This is not something that can reasonably be predicted from existing or prior design trends, though, as the most recent good/usable special was Grove Tender in 2015 (barring reskins of old specials such as BoD or 4oJ, obviously) - before any sort of design intent for specials even existed lol.

< Message edited by TFS -- 9/3/2023 16:18:05 >
DF  Post #: 19
9/3/2023 17:47:47   
Branl
Member

I'm just going to say that people don't find the mechanic of RNG massive damage increase fun. If they did, Guardian would be much more popular. Ice Scythe was only broadly liked because "beeeg damage lul" and the punishment for failing to proc RNG was either time or time and 1000 gold, so who cares? Just reroll the fight until you proc Scythe eventually.
But this was never a healthy mechanic. Sidestepping my contention with specials that have variable strength dependent on hitcount aside, it was massively overcentralizing, since it was broadly much better than any other special, and it wasn't even close. You had classes like WDL, who have pretty low hitcount, with videos up with strategies reliant ON those specials (proc Scythe/BoA by this point or reroll). This is especially eronious because Lucky Hammer would prove to be the most competitive with Scythe on WDL because of their autocrit and lack of hitcount, and people still used scythe on it. Which speaks to broadly how busted it was.

And, I'm sorry, but if a class was barely on the fringe of usability for modern inn content by "just proc ice scythe lul", then that's more indicative of the class either being outdated, or in ChW's case, not really meant for those fights to begin with. I don't really see the issue with ripping the proverbial bandaid off, because "proc rng" is a meme strategy anyway.
AQ DF  Post #: 20
9/3/2023 17:50:22   
Moglinomicon
Member
 
quote:

In regards to the Scythe changes. Overall, I'm happy it happened. It's been a long time coming as we all know and in my opinion, it's been a hassle in regards to balancing on bosses. My main issue with the Scythes is that some fights where you need a Scythe proc requires you to restart the fight until it happens, which can range from pretty fast to absolutely slow based on your hitcount. But I think we all know that.


If Ice Scythe being too RNG-dependent is the issue why not just revamp it to use the Rolith's Hammer mechanic, where accumulating X hits guarantees a proc?

quote:

I dont think the intent of "Ice Scythe", a random 1000 gold weapon, was to be game defining and game design centralizing. The difference is pretty evident.


If Ice Scythe being free is the issue why not just move the special to FrostScythe (from Ice and Dragons)?

quote:

The new special system needs work, certainly, and hitcount and specials interaction i want to find a way to work around.
To build up to and evovle into healthy system requires a base reset. Just releasing randomly busted specials all over and hoping things work out is not viable, and trying to design challenges in such a system is also not viable, as it becomes a matter of which class can abuse which special best, and then how each fight interacts with specials, rather than the player interacting with the fight.


If weapon special stacking is too degenerate why not just give them the same status name so that they overwrite each other's effects?

quote:

To clarify more on the plans for the future, removing Ice Scythe's dominance flattens the special playing field a bit. This allows us to start assessing and changing how specials work and how we want them to fit into combat- the old system, while it was emergent and had some interesting points, was a bit too nebulous and unfocused, leading to things being overly centralizing.

I do want to make more interesting weapon specials, but it will take time. And having a new baseline, while a quick fix, helps to have as a starting point.


The way I see it, newer weapon specials are rarely used because of their weak numbers, have Rolith's Hammer been +200 Crit on every 4th hit, classes like Pirate will definitely consider using it. I think the ideas behind your creations are interesting, they just lack the numbers/are contradictory to their own effects (Heart's Whisper for example).

quote:

as well as the lance from the previous challenge, we are experimenting with new specials that are still tied to elements.


Lance of Awethur is underwhelming only because Bonus is such an easily obtainable stat (Pet Dragon gives 100, Zard Kebobs give 100, and modern classes all have a respectable amount of +Bonus in their kits)
Post #: 21
9/3/2023 20:09:04   
Laeon val Observis
Member
 

 Finally got a chance to have a run on the MoW duo after a genuine electrical problem was masked by a scheduled maintenance. Despite having the initial premonition of a KAA hellhole, Pyro carried me through with one attempt only (Partly because my combat lean is towards the defensive, helping my visions flow more naturally than when I'm using an offensive class). With the added bonus that Greg died approximately 1.5 enemy rotations longer than Cryo's run (Yeah, partly because I'm not entirely a master of Pyro's intricacies. Had most of the gear recommended for that fight). Impressions:

1. Wasn't really in too much danger: the survivability of Pyro more than compensated, including that one Enkindle that I forgot that I was holding Apotheosis instead of Sea Chicken. Usage of Hero Diet can easily be subbed with an HP pot or a Rebirth. The only decisive difference is that To Ashes can help dissipate the Hardtack's minor blind which can become major with all the shielding the enemies are capable of and Thyton's blinds.
2. Specials: Awethur is pretty much the greatest necessity short of Conflag Hammer/ThornRepli bursting. Twilly's Staff? Didn't really proc often enough that it's icing on the cake on To Ashes assaults. BoA and friends? Unnecessary double redundancy. On-hit DoT crack? Maybe, but still, no apparent danger. -EleRes highrollposting? Unlikely necessary if the DoT scenario is taken into account.
3. Fight still requires observation: the closest that I feel could deal with this would either be BDL or Necro(Paragon). Otherwise, cannot really visualize any other NDC class that might stand up to the pair. Techno bruteforce can be a theory waiting to be tested.
DF AQW  Post #: 22
9/3/2023 20:15:07   
The ErosionSeeker
*insert cheesy pun here*
quote:

As admissed by multiple people in this thread - including yourself - content released after Ice Scythe is balanced around, or reliant on, Ice Scythe.

Challenge clears hinging on something as powerful and unreliable as IS is a bad thing. This is you arguing that challenges should have 20% more HP because it's skillful when they're reliant on resolving a dice roll, rather than weakening the special and having less HP inflation.
quote:

Is Exalted Apotheosis unreasonable becsuse it's a 20-30% damage increase over Twinblades of Glory? What a silly non-sequitor.

Comparing two level 90 weapons against a 90 and a 70 (with ten years of stat progression in between) is obtuse. Apotheosis is approximately 1200% better than Holy Smackerel so clearly it should be nerfed. Absurd non-argument.
DF AQW  Post #: 23
9/3/2023 20:16:46   
Lee
Member
 
quote:

As for the new fight, I've yet to do it fully to provide proper feedback. Decided to make a new reply so feedback isn't lost in the backlog.


Now for feedback on Masters of Wind.

The Theme for hand doesn't make as much sense, he's an easily missed NPC within Lymcrest who races you around Lore. Outside of that, Thyton/Greg don't seem "Displaced" in any way which is even stranger to me.

EDIT: Someone on Discord explained the reference and connection to this fight - my apologies

For context, in Displaced Fates, the Challenger Gauntlet somewhat makes sense. En/Tropy and When do since one exists "out" of time while the pair seem to potentially be from a long lost time - they're walking rotting corpses who are "supposedly" reanimated Chaosweavers (this being out of game lore though means it doesn't really apply).

As for the mechanics of the fight...

Thyton's main mechanic is his West Wind and East Wind.

West Wind is a "reverse" When Shield, in which he starts with high MPM and then loses it once the Player/Pet misses a single hit that turn. I don't mind this too much on it's own as it's an interesting change.
East Wind is a single hit When Shield, for those wondering - a When Shield is when a boss gains a large amount of MPM upon taking a certain amount of hit(s) in one turn.

Thyton alternates between these two based on his Runic Blades status - once he hits 80 Boost/Bonus/Crit, he'll "nuke" then swap Winds. I don't mind this too much but I found East Wind to be a little bit restrictive since you're either capable of dealing single hits or flopping around because you have decent hitcount. This goes vice versa for West as well. All in all, East Wind being a single hit When Shield for me is a bit restrictive as I mentioned.

Greg:
I'm going to be upfront and say that a boss gaining more than 250 MPM is really grating. Since to "hit" them, you need to stack Pet Dragon's Scout as well as your Class's +Bonus (assuming it has one lol). That's just to land a hit. Greg gets up to 320 MPM once his power reachs 9,000, which is a real headache when he gains 1,000 Power before attacking.

Damage Reduction on Greg wasn't too bad compared to the MPM for me. You're able to somewhat work around it instead of hoping your attacks hit through and land. All in all, I feel Greg's mechanics ramp up a bit too fast whereas Thyton's East Wind drags out the fight with it's single hit When Shield.

At the same time, Lance of Awethur would be helpful here for Thyton a little bit but not too much. Thyton hits ~320 MPM on both East or West Wind meaning Lance feels like a drop in the ocean.

The reward is nice, an alternative (although in my opinion, not as accessible) Summon Honda trinket is interesting. I'm on the fence how I feel about it with Ninja as it doesn't really bring much to the table but I'll play around with it and comment on it in the next week or so.

< Message edited by Lee -- 9/4/2023 23:14:55 >
Post #: 24
9/3/2023 20:57:34   
TFS
Helpful!
quote:

Challenge clears hinging on something as powerful and unreliable as IS is a bad thing. This is you arguing that challenges should have 20% more HP because it's skillful when they're reliant on resolving a dice roll, rather than weakening the special and having less HP inflation.

No, this is me arguing that existing content has already been balanced around Ice Scythe. If you think consistency is the issue, and that the game would be improved by shaving 20% HP off of enemies and inadvertently making every non-Ice Scythe strategy that much stronger, I've got some shocking news for you lol.
DF  Post #: 25
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