Deurzz
Member
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Sentiment around this latest inn challenge seems mostly negative, so I'll try to describe my personal issues/feedback, so hopefully future inn challenges will learn from it and be better!
I don't know anything about EpicDuel, so I'll just focus on gameplay issues.
My issues can be described in two elements: lack of cohesive gameplay identity and lack of meaningful player choice.
First a summary of the mechanics.
Kartherax:
1. Rotation based on player shielding
2. Permanent debuff inversion
3. Pet stun
4. Prison
5. Parasitic Grasp
Acatriel:
1. Turning Time
2. Unguarded
3. For the Past/For the Future
4. Vengeance + Rotation change
5. Adjudicator's Resonance
Overall, I personally can't really tell what the identity or goal of either of these (or the challenge as a whole) were supposed to be.
The mechanics just don't feel cohesive and just there to make sure the player faces friction while doing the fight, as opposed to mechanics synergizing for a relevant gameplay goal.
Several of these mechanics in this challenge just feel like turn wastes/annoyances -
You have to basic attack, you have to potion, you can't use your pet on turn x, etc. There is no main interesting issue to solve, or ways to tackle the mechanics; the mechanics simply dictate that you must do x.
An example of a well-liked challenge which does have a clear identity imo is Devoured Horizons.
It has a very clear gameplay goal which I'd summarize as crowd control/aoe; stack management on the Snake while you also have to carefully manage the blobs' HP.
Designing fights with a clear identity for the players can also help with limiting mechanic bloat -
I personally dislike fights that just feel like non-synergistic mechanics tacked on like this challenge, whereas generally I like doing fights that have a singular hard goal to resolve; it makes it feel more of a challenge as opposed to dealing with random chores.
An additional downside to having numerous annoying mechanics instead of a clear identity, is that the fight can just feel needlessly complex, with just creating artificial difficulty by using multiple mechanics that don't gel well together.
Player clarity is also important, fights that just feel like you have to read up a thesis on the wiki pages can feel terrible, whereas fights where it is clear from the start what the main goal is do not have this issue.
Removing some of the more random mechanics from this fight could then open up space to buff/emphasize mechanics that are currently underwhelming, to become more of the main identity.
The Prison mechanic for Kartherax, and For the Past/Future for Acatriel could have been cool, but right now none of the mechanics feel that relevant imo. You only interact with the Prison mechanic for a few turns at the end of the rotation, and For the Past/Future only once every 2 rotations.
These mechanics could have shone through if they were allowed to, if more of the power budget was allocated to them instead of being muddled by several other mechanics.
However, identity by itself does not make a good challenge - Frostscythe has a very clear identity of being a RNG slot machine, and is almost universally disliked.
This is obviously subjective, but I think unfun challenges even if they have a clear identity heavily ties in with my second criticism which I've hinted at before - lack of meaningful player choice.
Of the mechanics listed, I feel like Parasitic Grasp, Unguarded & Permanent inversion, are just not interesting for the player - the first 2 inflict permanent debuffs that can only be resolved in 1 way.
The core of what makes DF inn challenges interesting for me, is the choice of what skills/potions/specials/gear to use, and when.
As these are permanent debuffs once applied, and are gone until re-applied, there's no major incentive not to resolve them asap - and you resolve them by simply clicking the thing that these statuses force you to use, which are just not very interesting buttons (potion & basic attack), as these just don't interact with the player's kit in a meaningful way.
This in contrast to say Keelhaul, which also applies a permanent debuff that's cleared on potion, but the when is more interesting there; -END might not affect the player right now, but it eventually will. Furthermore, the -END is constantly re-applied, and only the value resets on potion usage, the timing of it becomes a more interesting choice.
On the other hand, I think For the Past/For the Future is a much better implementation, that is interactive and leaves plenty of room for meaningful player choice; there is even a choice in which status you want to resolve!
Several aspects that are good, is that each status can be resolved in multiple ways depending on each player's preference (do I camp low/high hp while using defensives to stay there, do I intentionally tank more damage or heal up right before the mechanic, etc), has a clearly defined timing window, and if that window is not reached, a meaningful but non-lethal downside is triggered.
It might feel bad as a developer if players choose to not resolve a mechanic at all, and instead to just tank the downside, but remember that for a player it can be a meaningful decision - would I rather face friction from trying to resolve the status, or face friction from a punishment because I didn't resolve the mechanic?
This does give the extra strain of having to balance the mechanic vs the downside of failing the mechanic, because if these are wildly imbalanced, it just comes across as a fake choice.
I think spending the development time on such choices are worth it, as I believe these mechanics can lead to interesting player choices.
For Kartherax's inversion, there's technically some form of choice (the number of debuffs before inversion resets when inversion is triggered) but realistically this kind of just feels meaningless - classes that don't rely on debuffs will simply just not interact with the inversion at all, whereas classes whose identity revolve around debuffs will simply just not be able to play, and aren't able to have meaningful interaction with the inversion, as it is permanently applied.
This in contrast to other challenges which invert/purge/trigger on specific turns or conditions - Pandora's EX inversion is limited to specific turns, purges are usually once per rotation, Suntouched Viper's response to debuffs can be limited through balancing buffs & debuffs, etc.
While annoying for debuff-focused classes, they can at least change their strategies around these situations - tying back to the core of DF, when to use what skill.
Overall, I don't expect this challenge to be changed, but I do hope that this feedback can be useful for future designs!
The main takeaway is that having a clear identity helps with minimizing mechanics bloat, while also determining the question whether players will have fun engaging with x mechanics that the fight clearly revolves around.
This can be answered by determining whether there is enough creative freedom & meaningful choice to handle these mechanics, as forcing players to do xyz is usually just not interesting.
Good implementations of such mechanics have been done in the past, as well as some during this fight, so I am positive about the future of inn fights, especially if more player feedback can be used to reflect on it!
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