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RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread

 
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3/2/2012 18:43:58   
Stabilis
Member

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►Ashari Please Read and Reply!◄

►Everyone Else Please Click Here!◄

►ND Mallet Guy This is My Reply!◄

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

quote:

quote:

I wish to further balance this game by having F2P gear as powerful as P2P gear. P2P gear will only cost varium and be "cheaper". The main differences is that F2P gear will take longer to acquire (requires time). That P2P will take obligation (requires money without time). This is a way to balance F2P to P2P.


quote:

When we get to the point of F2P gear being very similar to P2P gear then perhaps we could take the credit requirement off of P2P gear.


< Message edited by Depressed Void -- 3/2/2012 20:16:49 >
AQ Epic  Post #: 126
3/2/2012 18:44:59   
Ranloth
Banned


Which will match the scheme of Gold/Credit items to 2nd currency items in other AE Games, that's when the gap will be pretty much near closing and bigger variety of items.
Heh, it seems like many members of the forum think alike about taking off some enhancements, different pricing, positive attitude towards nerfs (CHs weren't dominating as much as TLMs, that's a good sign that they listened and changed quickly.
Nice to see that some forum members do agree on some important issues!

@Pivotal
Enhancements = Profit. Right. If more players turn away from the game due to constantly having to buy Varium to keep up with new items + enhance to gain "advantage", they will see that they spend too much money and stop paying. Less payers means less profit. Enhancements =/= Profit if you consider all the factors, not a basic one.


< Message edited by Trans -- 3/2/2012 18:47:54 >
AQ Epic  Post #: 127
3/2/2012 20:23:55   
Stabilis
Member

Just so you all know, I have edited the following: letter to Ashari, Cyber Hunter edit, and ND's reply... if you want to take the time to read any of those.
AQ Epic  Post #: 128
3/2/2012 21:11:32   
ND Mallet
Legendary AK!!!


@void
1. Not every player has a gun and aux to use. Plus you have the Yeti Bot as well. As well as the fact that energy is limited for several classes makes it pretty hard to constantly avoid using Strike.
2. If it only affects damage above 3 then it will be better but what will stop a CH from lowering their uber tank build so you hit 4+ every time. Plus, it would lower tanking but encourage Str Builds big time. 10% damage every strike they receive? Great deal. Simple strategy too for other CHs. Malf, Gun, Cheap Shot, Static Charge, Massacre. Not a single Strike in that build. You can do that with just about any other build in the game. Adjust it as much as you want but it suffers the same problem as Diamond Blades. It's either useless and a waste, or it's broken.
3. Basing it off damage is encouraging Str builds with Bloodlust, specifically a Str BM. The one strike you may have against them would be completely nulled by the 100+ damage from Zerker, Fireball and DA.
4. It's always been that way. Some builds get more uses out of some skills than others. Do you expect a BH with only dex and support to have a good Massacre build? No that's completely ridiculous.
5. Guess what? Poison affects everyone the same. It affects tanks more than others since it ignores defenses entirely. Regardless, you still lose as much health as if it hit any other class. If it you claim it's OPd to use against CHs then try healing after a couple turns of poison damage. No one else is complaining about Poison aside from just your post.
6. I meant that Blue Ruin is UPd compared to Bludgeon and Double Strike, not CS. CS ignores defenses and has a chance to critical. It's a powerful skill against tanks. Also, they made item requirements on skills because of the fact that swords>class specific weapons in terms of stats. To counter the fact that Swords give more stats and sometimes more damage as well, the staff made it so that some skills required class specific weapons. Plus, how do you Massacre with a sword? Or Cheap Shot? What about Maul and Atom Smasher(they both have clubs on the skill icons even)?
7. Changing DM for CHs will affect Mages as well. Guess what, they have Technician. Technician+DM=tank. Malf+tank+bot+DA+Aux=close to OPd if not OPd.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 129
3/2/2012 22:00:19   
Stabilis
Member

quote:

@The ND Mallet Guy,

quote:

Going by first glance I can tell you that Plasma Aura will either be OPd or UPd.


Oh good I hope this will be a constructive criticism to help me balance my suggestion!

quote:

OPd since you said it removes 10% of total health upon primary damage. This means 10 primary strikes and someone dies.


10 successive Strikes (or in general being contacted by a Primary) will lower the enemy's health to 1. If it helps I will add the statement that Plasma Aura can not kill the attacker (since draws are not an option). So, 10 turns of straight out Primary hits. I would not consider this a dilemma because of the unlikelihood of a player not having common sense. Rabblefroth has mentioned the psychology of human beings to be adaptive (in general I would say). If you play to win (this is your scenario), I would not say that the player is foolish enough to inflict self damage over and over again. There is the option of Sidearms to avoid Plasma Aura, and supplementary skills (for example poison grenades or fireball), and the option to defend (healing or buffs). There is a great many ways to avoid Plasma Aura with respect to versatility in utility. I would not say that Plasma Aura is a deathblow to a single person besides cancelling out Primary Strength spammings. This would hopefully promote more tactile thinking.

quote:

Spam tech and dex and you have the next OPd build that is probably even worse then anything before it.


Oh! This is a great point ND! I have not been criticized in this category before (selective stat allocation). I would say that Plasma Aura would compensate the need for offence if a player only ever uses defense stats (the said dex and tec). This could be an issue in events such as incoming 3 damage per turn VS. 10 damage outgoing per turn simply due to Plasma Aura itself. I am thinking of solutions to repair this skill... hmm... how about adding this into the skill's scripting:

during the enemy's turn ->
attacknegate = player with Plasma Aura's Defense - enemy Primary damage + minimum Strength damage...
if attacknegate <= 3:
_____Plasma Aura = False


Plasma Aura will not shock anyone who's Primary will hit a 3 against the user of Plasma Aura. How does that sound?

quote:

UPd if you base it off damage inflicted since BH and BM gain health back from damage. If you adjust the numbers so Bloodlust is useless against it, every other class suffers big time.


Since I have included the coding above ^, it will not be overpowered. Yes, BH and BM gain health back on the damage inflicted. My confusion is how Plasma Aura would be underpowered if Bloodlust restores health as usual. Would you mind relaying what you meant back to me ND? Max Plasma Aura VS. a max Bloodlust Primary Strike would mean that the change in health is equal to:

lplayer health + (23 % * damage inflicted) - (total health * 10 %)

When you average things out, it would usually mean 7 Bloodlust bonus - a 10 Aura shock... = -3 health. I would not call that underpowered ahahaha!

quote:

Cyber Arts will support strength builds since they would now have higher hit rate because of it. Think of a Str Hunter with the ability to gain huge amounts of energy back in one strike, except it's actually a CH.


Cyber arts will benefit Strength builds greatly, yes. In truth, though, Cyber Arts upgrades all Cyber Hunter builds who use Static Charge. ND Mallet. This is the point in my response where I will convey my unnerved feelings toward Static Charge improving with Strength. I thought "of a Strength Cyber Hunter (the best Static Charge) with the ability to gain grand numbers of energy back in one Static Charge". One of my more vital concerns are forcing Cyber Hunters to administer Strength into their complex simply to return more energy. This is preposterous. If a Cyber Hunter would like to play a Support build, they will not get the needed energy BECAUSE Static Charge improves with Strength. Ashari told me that, "It's not supposed to be a universally useful for all builds. Static Charge is intended to be a skill that Strength builds gain more benefit from. Every skill in-game can benefit your more or less depending on your build. Static Charge is no different". That just broke my mind. Perhaps in the description there is reference to skills being unanimous to host a specific stat type... but that does not mean that THE key skill of a Cyber Hunter (Static Charge) should be the choice of backbreaking, to harm the UP Cyber Hunters as well, which has been with us since the beginning (unlike Plasma Armour) and is so very unique. Static Charge can literally substitute the need for Plasma Armour which is at an imbalance. Instead, staff has decided to nerf a skill that already favours Strength Cyber Hunters... and in return makes all players suffer! This is going to promote even MORE Strength abuse (from the Cyber Hunter class). You do not wish this do you ND? Many Cyber Hunters use Static Charge because it is the gateway to concede all other skills costing energy. Violating Static Charge in this way is an attack of the Cyber Hunters' core!

quote:

The Poison reduction isn't helping much since it's entirely situational and OPd when it comes to that situation.


Poison reduction is simply a complimentary attribute of Cyber Arts to prolong livelihood in a class that is otherwise susceptible to catastrophic damage. If you have played as a Cyber Hunter ND, you would know that poison is a prime weakness because we cannot defend against it and ALSO that the current passives (Plasma Armour = improper, Shadow Arts = fairly useless) are only promoting tankishness or Strength or health monsters. This cuts away from diversity, a VERY important aspect in PvP in general, but also originality. Does Plasma Armour or Shadow Arts looks original to you? *smiley face* with the current balance trend Cyber Hunter will become a Tactical Mercenary. This is not acceptable. If staff would only consider my opinions to fixing my own class we would not suffer as such. Anyways, back to poison. The key trait in Cyber Arts is that Primary accuracy improves. This is helpful for Static Charge since it being key and requiring accuracy, they mesh nicely. Poison resistance is simply there to help Cyber Hunters withstand the barrage of offense that some players choose to cripple others with.

quote:

Really isn't anything wrong with Cheap Shot so I don't see why it needs replaced. Secondly, it seems a bit underperforming from what I remember about the other strength moves like it.


Sorry if I did not display, my intentions were that Cheap Shot is underperforming/underpowered and needs to be edited. I chose to incorporate Blue Ruin to give an offensive tactic to those who do not use wrist-blades. ND Mallet, would you not agree that class specific attacks are somewhat pointless? The only true reason staff has decided not to make all weapon skills universal is because of the work needed to add into animation. This is the only reason. SO, allowing players to use a sword in the Cyber Hunter class actually opens up the possibility of innovation and it also removes the necessity of Massacre (and this cuts away from Strength builds). Even if Blue ruin is a Strength skill itself, we can lower the damage spamming by giving players the chance to opt for weaker attack skills.

quote:

Energy Shield should probably stay off considering it improves with Support as does Defense Matrix. Plus, combined with Plasma Aura, you'll be safe behind 3 damage while your opponent suffers a slow demise by the hands of the 10% health damage.


Perhaps we can change Defense Matrix to improve with Technology, no? Tech Mages advantage from this because of their skillset (technology spells). It will not overpower Tech Mages because the energy improving skills all require a decent value of energy (averaged at 20 energy for these skills). And like I said about only taking 3 damage and dealing 10 per Strike, my suggestion to the Plasma Aura's coding can help solve overpowered tanking.

Thanks for your time ND Mallet I appreciate it!


@The ND Mallet Guy

quote:

1. Not every player has a gun and aux to use. Plus you have the Yeti Bot as well. As well as the fact that energy is limited for several classes makes it pretty hard to constantly avoid using Strike.


No, not every player has a Sidearm or Auxiliary at hand. This is due to a lack of credits, a balance error in itself to provide players with enough credits to compete efficiently. The Yeti bot is usable only once and may result in a failure (block). Energy is limited to: BH, BM, M. Bounty Hunters possess Bloodlust, so the effects of Plasma Aura will be reduced. Blood Mages the same. Mercenaries have the most powerful attacks but are very very underpowered and require a much needed boost. If it helps I will take my time to suggest an edit to Mercenaries to keep their personality the same but improve the shell.


quote:

2. If it only affects damage above 3 then it will be better but what will stop a CH from lowering their uber tank build so you hit 4+ every time. Plus, it would lower tanking but encourage Str Builds big time. 10% damage every strike they receive? Great deal. Simple strategy too for other CHs. Malf, Gun, Cheap Shot, Static Charge, Massacre. Not a single Strike in that build. You can do that with just about any other build in the game. Adjust it as much as you want but it suffers the same problem as Diamond Blades. It's either useless and a waste, or it's broken.


How does a Cyber Hunter prepare their Defense/Resistance to an exact number against strangers in 1v1, 2v2, or 2v1? You can in general alter your Defense/Resistance to be low such as approximately 30 points but then you may risk taking extra damage VS. other Strength users, lowering the win chance % below a recognizable value such as 90%, 80%, or below.

Response to the comment about "simple strategy for other CHs": In my suggestion I have proposed to remove both Malfunction and Cheap Shot. Therefor the selection becomes: Gun, Blue Ruin, Static Charge, Multi-Shot, Plasma Grenade, Venom Strike, Massacre.

And I have stated before, that Plasma Aura activates whenever the owner of a Plasma Aura is contacted by a Primary weapon, whether it be by Strike, Double Strike, Blue Ruin, Berzerker, Bludgeon, or Cheap Shot/Massacre.

Therefor the skill Plasma Aura will be in effect a grander portion of the time, as many attack skills use the Primary weapon to channel the attack.
quote:

3. Basing it off damage is encouraging Str builds with Bloodlust, specifically a Str BM. The one strike you may have against them would be completely nulled by the 100+ damage from Zerker, Fireball and DA.


No no no, if anything, other players would WANT to be dealing 3 damage to avoid Plasma Aura's shock. This would encourage (slightly) the use of tanking, Dexterity, or Technology builds, Technology builds being something we have not seen beforein depth. That should be exciting. And ND Mallet, if Blood Mage is suggestively THAT powerful that they deal 100+ damage in such a short time, they would require a power nerf, yes?
quote:

4. It's always been that way. Some builds get more uses out of some skills than others. Do you expect a BH with only dex and support to have a good Massacre build? No that's completely ridiculous.


One moment please while I find out what exactly you were referring to.
quote:

5. Guess what? Poison affects everyone the same. It affects tanks more than others since it ignores defenses entirely. Regardless, you still lose as much health as if it hit any other class. If it you claim it's OPd to use against CHs then try healing after a couple turns of poison damage. No one else is complaining about Poison aside from just your post.


That seemed to be a bit of a ridicule, but I'll forgive that. True it is, that because of Plasma Armour, Cyber Hunters are more inclined to tank, even if they may use great Strength builds. This passive really does set Cyber Hunters up to be more susceptible to poison. Like you have said, poison ignores ARMOURS entirely. That means poison does EXTRA damage against players who use Plasma Armour, yes? That is equal to, up to, + 13 damage per turn because poison is unaffected by armour. With my suggestion to replace Armour with Aura and Arts, poison will be doing relatively less damage because there is no Armour to ignore, and the Poison resistance allows a Cyber Hunter with Plasma Aura and Cyber Arts to tank better because even though they have a mediocre 95 health, the poison will not be a danger. I coin the poison to be dangerous because what passives do Cyber Hunters have? A Plasma Armour that is going to shape the class exactly into the unbalanced Tactical Mercenary. Guess how many complaints there will ring in then lol?
quote:

6. I meant that Blue Ruin is UPd compared to Bludgeon and Double Strike, not CS. CS ignores defenses and has a chance to critical. It's a powerful skill against tanks. Also, they made item requirements on skills because of the fact that swords>class specific weapons in terms of stats. To counter the fact that Swords give more stats and sometimes more damage as well, the staff made it so that some skills required class specific weapons. Plus, how do you Massacre with a sword? Or Cheap Shot? What about Maul and Atom Smasher(they both have clubs on the skill icons even)?


ND Mallet. I forced Blue Ruin to be UP like that of Bludgeon or Double Strike to demote the use of Strength builds. Is that not a good cause? When you say Cheap Shot has a "chance to critical", you verge on arguing luck, and because luck is unpredictable, that is not a topic volley back and forth because luck may land in the undesired position. Cheap Shot ignores Defense, but how much Defense? It take 10 whole skill points to ignore one third of Defense or Resistance. That is underpowered. At level 1 there is only 11% Defenses to be ignored. On average at higher levels that is really only a bonus of 4 damage per Cheap Shot. That is not very much at our levels. True, in the past, swords possessed significantly more stat points than class specifics. Today the case is a difference of no more than 5. Compare Delta Destroyer to a Delta Maul or Staff for example. You said, "how do you Massacre with a sword?". I say, swing the blade up and down 7 times for a sword Massacre. And I have already mentioned that the animation simply takes "too much" effort for the graphics workers to produce, maybe you had skipped that part. Anyways that issue is really only a matter of art.
quote:

7. Changing DM for CHs will affect Mages as well. Guess what, they have Technician. Technician+DM=tank. Malf+tank+bot+DA+Aux=close to OPd if not OPd.


ND, how does this help them anymore than even thinking about being overpowered?

1: Both skills each take 1 turn to use. No damage is dealt in doing so.

2: Both skills COST energy, the combination may not be accessible.

3: If you increase Resistance and Defense, Reroute is going to output less and less energy.

4: The average Technician ranges between 30-40 at our level, that is around 35. 35 Tech points is equal to approximately 9 more Defense per turn. Your point?



Thanks for taking your time to chat with me again ND Mallet Guy.

I like to discuss balance and solve gaming problems. Anytime my friend.

P.S. you seem somewhat disgruntled, are you feeling OK? If not, feel better soon.

< Message edited by Depressed Void -- 3/3/2012 11:24:49 >
AQ Epic  Post #: 130
3/2/2012 23:51:18   
IsaiahtheMage
Member

This new update has made balance even worst. Now CH and BH are on top. Because TLMs can't even hit them now. With their high dex,shadow arts, and smoke screen we can't touch them.
AQW Epic  Post #: 131
3/3/2012 0:01:55   
Shadronica
Member

Yes Trans you are right about players refusing to keep buying and some/many have walked away. I for one have not bought varium in well over a year now or renewed my AQWorld membership until I can see a very concerted effort to provide us with other means to spend our varium other than just buying pvp advantages/prestige constantly.

I find that the way we are enticed to buy the latest pvp item or achievement pivots the whole game about one's own desires for fame and glory without any due care for the environment/community in which you survive.
I have seen this in evidence even amongst the very guides who should be leading citizens not leaders of the pack.

Although some may feel that my post does not belong in this thread I say to you that this post is as much about balance for ED as where you are going to place your stats.

DF AQW Epic  Post #: 132
3/3/2012 0:02:17   
Mr. Black OP
Member

Since TLM don't have SS anymore why don't we add the 10% to multi again? Mercs will be stronger.
Epic  Post #: 133
3/3/2012 0:56:36   
TheArtOfRuin
Member

How is it balanced that Tactical Mercenaries are now unable to use smoke screen? Tactical merc players (such as myself) are going to get destroyed by the classes that still have smoke screen and malfunction. I spent forever getting my build just right to incorporate smoke screen into my strategy. Ridiculous.

and why all of a sudden so drastically change this single class? Without telling anybody first?

< Message edited by TheArtOfRuin -- 3/3/2012 1:07:14 >
Post #: 134
3/3/2012 1:03:33   
RageSoul
Member

@Art
Simple : No more OPed "rinse-and-repeat" tactics ( Smoke - Atom - Strike - Strike/Frenzy + whatever move you want to do ) . Plus you have Atom Smahser and Reroute , so not much of a problem there.
AQW Epic  Post #: 135
3/3/2012 1:22:10   
TheArtOfRuin
Member

I don't know if you've noticed, but atom smasher's hit percentage doesn't seem to be that great. and at least with smoke screen if your opponent blocks the effect still works. I see you have a level 32 bounty hunter character. So of course you're not complaining, because you still have smoke screen and you've gained an advantage along with half the other classes that have stat reducing skills.
Post #: 136
3/3/2012 1:25:27   
RageSoul
Member

@Art
I'm not complaining because of me being a BH? Um , ever heard of "Heal Loop + Tank"? Pretty sure that works more . Plus , as you can see , you can Atom all you want but us BHs? No . And besides , there are bots you can use if you're gonna include them in balance .

Removed content directed at a deleted post. ~Illuminator

< Message edited by Illuminator -- 3/3/2012 2:52:11 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 137
3/3/2012 1:32:57   
drinde
Member

So you Tacticals would rather have no Reroute/Mineral Armor than lose smoke? Those are the biggest Factors which made* them OP...

*PAST TENSE
DF MQ Epic  Post #: 138
3/3/2012 1:43:44   
TheArtOfRuin
Member

We pay varium or an obscene ammout of credits to upgrade to tactical mercenary, so yeah, we should have an advantage here and there as opposed to free classes.
Post #: 139
3/3/2012 1:46:18   
ND Mallet
Legendary AK!!!


@art The new classes are not and never were supposed to be better than the old classes. So what if you paid to use them? You pay to change to any other class as well.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 140
3/3/2012 1:49:44   
TheArtOfRuin
Member

The new classes were meant to be sort of like upgrades to their respective starter classes, so in theory...they'd have advantages over the older ones
Post #: 141
3/3/2012 1:53:25   
AQWPlayer
Member

@TheArtOfRuin
Huh. I wonder which class pwns which...
TLM has mineral armor, BH has bloodlust. Mineral armor reduces the effectiveness of BL.
TLM has reroute, BH has shadow arts. 30% guaranteed energy regain at max vs 10% extra block chance at max? lol
TLM can heal loop with reroute, BH can mini heal loop with BL, but oh wait, there's mineral armor, so BH can ubermini heal loop against TLM...
TLM can atom smash loop, preventing a BH from using massacre, and then spam unblockables to overcome SA while a BH can only do little damage with insane strength.
Now, you tell me which class is better :P
Good night.
AQW  Post #: 142
3/3/2012 1:54:37   
drinde
Member

^
And to top it off, FRENZAH!

:3 I rest my case, hammer and magnifying glass.
DF MQ Epic  Post #: 143
3/3/2012 1:55:22   
RageSoul
Member

@Art
So why do alot of people want to nerf both TLM and CH then?
AQW Epic  Post #: 144
3/3/2012 1:56:06   
TheArtOfRuin
Member

You brought up mineral armor quite a bit there...it's called, energy weapons

People want to nerf everything. If the developers and whatnot listened to every complaint, they have nerfed everything, brought it back twice and nerfed it again.

Everything was fine the way it was

Posts merged, please do not double post, please use the edit button to add additional information to your post. ~Illuminator

< Message edited by Illuminator -- 3/3/2012 2:44:16 >
Post #: 145
3/3/2012 2:02:59   
RageSoul
Member

@Art
Hmmm...even if one guy uses Energy weapons that doesn't mean it's weak . And why is there such thing as balance? Isn't because everything shouldn't outpower each other , just smarts and skills? Now look at the STR builds of TLM was using before . How many builds that the other classes have can beat them w/o being luck-abuse? And also , both Mineral Armor and Reroute are waaaaay better than Smoke Screen .
AQW Epic  Post #: 146
3/3/2012 2:05:00   
TheArtOfRuin
Member

I'm not saying reroute and mineral armor are bad, I'm just saying you can get around mineral armor easily by using energy weapons against it.

_____________________________

Your sig has been Dusted/M4B'd
Our limits: 500 x 100 & 50kb max
Yours was: too wide
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Post #: 147
3/3/2012 2:09:35   
RageSoul
Member

quote:

I'm not saying reroute and mineral armor are bad, I'm just saying you can get around mineral armor easily by using energy weapons against it.

That's the problem of what BH and BM ( most likely BH ) are facing . Okay , let's see .... High HP + High Physical Defense all thanks to Mineral Armor and decent DEX + Reroute ( and don't forget bot ) = Are you okay...? ( This is the result and it's not an insult )
AQW Epic  Post #: 148
3/3/2012 2:09:56   
drinde
Member

@TAoR
So placing Mineral Armor on BH wouldn't make them OP?

I have so much to learn...

< Message edited by drinde -- 3/3/2012 2:10:17 >
DF MQ Epic  Post #: 149
3/3/2012 2:20:52   
TheArtOfRuin
Member

and when another class comes along with a strategy that is "OP" people will complain until that gets nerfed. What are you going to do if something that effects your class like this comes along? You'll be doing the exact same thing I'm doing - asking why.

_____________________________

Your sig has been Dusted/M4B'd
Our limits: 500 x 100 & 50kb max
Yours was: too wide
Detailed Sig Guide
Post #: 150
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