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RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII

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5/27/2012 19:37:48   
Stabilis
Member

The synergy is clear that this can only occur with Cyber Hunters:

-destroy enemy energy

-create user energy

Without, ever reaching a deadlock. Unlike Tactical Mercenaries with Reroute, Cyber Hunters may create energy out of "nothing". Static Charge converts a character attribute (Primary damage) into energy, while Reroute converts a character stat (health into energy). As Tactical Mercenaries can not maintain a viable health to energy ratio (Field Medic health < Reroute energy), they have limits that prevent them from everlasting life. Cyber Hunters need only convert Primary weapon damage into energy at no costs aside from the occasional impediment of blocking (not a major issue, Static Charge may be reattempted).

The same would apply to Bounty Hunters, they may create health out of damage, but cannot maintain the health if the enemy has a damage advantage.

I suggest removing EMP from Cyber Hunters, have them more vulnerable by stripping away Plasma Armour, and implement energy based skills... since, you know, energy is not as much of an issue as it is with the Cyber Hunter class.

< Message edited by Depressed Void -- 5/27/2012 19:38:38 >
AQ Epic  Post #: 576
5/27/2012 19:55:03   
Hun Kingq
Member

Today balance, blocking, and deflection was basically non existent only one match only attacks I blocked was the non rage attacks 3 times the 30 other only one block that was with my dex as high as I could get it with the lowest possible health as well as my tech the damage was not lessened but increased especially from the over confident low level Cyber Hunters. That free ride have to end. A Level 32 Cyber hunter with low strength with the same level gear should not get more damage than a level 34 especially when I lower his strength even further. Damage from the Plasma Cannon and overload on him was a big joke. Then on top of that he was able to EMP me twice while getting back energy three times.

From the Cyber Hunter since they have massacre and static charge malfunction and EMP has to be replaced or replace EMP and give the Blood Mage a skill that improves tech that does not improve with Dex.

When a battle last a long time a class needs energy regain because that one battle that I got 3 blocks in my energy was gone and could not heal no more while the opponent with reroute was able to heal quite a few times. Health Regain is great but how many of the Blood Mage skills uses health?

I don't what happen between last night and this morning because I went from seeing the damage from a high strength build I am suppose to see to seeing damage from the same build 37 and below.

Below is stats from a Level 34 all Beta weapons with Delta Armor
http://i50.tinypic.com/2s8msfo.jpg

How many of you can get health/energy that high with high dex and tech with the gear you have, non alpha/beta gear?

Everyone complained about not blocking Berzerker when the Blood Mage had it but no one is complaining about no blocking against Double strike and Berzerker especially more so with the new skill.

To add on to the list of balance problems that is ever growing they seriously need to re due the equations for blocking, deflections, critical damage and who goes first
Epic  Post #: 577
5/27/2012 20:13:33   
liy010
Member

quote:

-Both have Passive Armor
-Both have Energy Regain Skill
-Both have Energy Drain skill
-CH has debuff (Malf) and TLM has buff (FC)
-Both have Shields (CH has DM and TLM has BS)
-TLM has more powerful Poison


quote:

Especially when paired with the ability to regain the energy to reuse it while hiding behind a passive armor.


CHs can gain about 13 Energy with Average STR every 3rd turn, with a Max Static but you are forgetting you get nothing at all when your opponent attacks you. Reroute is the opposite and can be utilized greatly at level 7 instead of Max so, yeah...

quote:

I suggest removing EMP from Cyber Hunters, have them more vulnerable by stripping away Plasma Armour, and implement energy based skills... since, you know, energy is not as much of an issue as it is with the Cyber Hunter class.


You mean like SuperCharge in the old days?
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 578
5/27/2012 20:20:33   
Stabilis
Member

quote:

You mean like SuperCharge in the old days?


I mean, 2 skills to replace EMP and PA, which would be along the lines of Energy Shield/Technician, and a reliable passive (I would ingratiatingly appreciate if Plasma Aura was implemented) that offers protection but not stat advantages like armour.

(And if we could, an offensive passive to replace SA)
AQ Epic  Post #: 579
5/27/2012 20:38:48   
ScarletReaper
Member

I got so freakin mad earlier. 16/20 of my 1v1 battles were level 33-34 cyberhunters and all but 1 aka the f2p character spammed emp. My character had 90 ep, but wound up being no help at all. This reeeeeaaaallllyyy needs to be fixed. It is quite possibly the most annoying skill ever.

< Message edited by ScarletReaper -- 5/28/2012 12:49:38 >
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 580
5/27/2012 22:47:03   
Mr. Black OP
Member

quote:

It's because a Multi skill was usually a must have for any good 2vs2 build. In ED, ideal balance is that no skill is better or more necessary than another skill. Plus, Multis were great for screwing up strategy because they could easily make it so your enemy had to decide whether he needed to heal himself or his partner. That was usually almost always the case if you used a Multi at high level and with good stat boosts.

I have a question based on this. If the admins nerfed multis for being deemed "necessary," then what about passives? Look at all the successful builds. All of them uses a passive but not all 2v2 builds used multi before the nerf.
Epic  Post #: 581
5/27/2012 22:55:41   
ND Mallet
Legendary AK!!!


 @black OP Already covered
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 582
5/27/2012 22:57:31   
Mr. Black OP
Member

^
Okay thank you.
Epic  Post #: 583
5/27/2012 23:07:27   
Combatoid
Member

So, Blood Mage is a mix between Tech Mage and Bounty Hunter, Cyber Hunter is a mix between Tech Mage and Bounty Hunter, and Tactical Mercenary is a mix between Mercenary and a Bounty Hunter Tech Mage mix?
Btw Since Tact was op with Smoke, Maul, and an upped version of frenzy, When Smoke is removed why aren't they scaled back up? Also, Every class either has big attacks such as FireBall, PlasmaBolt, BunkerBuster, and SuperCharge. However, Tact is missing a special AND a debuff. Tact has no buffs accept FC and Bloodshield. FC is a waste of 1 turn and is only to be used by major tanks at higher levels. And BloodShield(BS) forces you to risk precious hp which you can hardly regain with the nerfed version of Frenzy.
Proposal-
Make Tactical Mercenaries have a better frenzy once again and a stun. Or have a new ability called "Haze", This new ability will lower the chance that the enemy can hit you AND the chance that you will be blocked by the enemy. OR(thinking this up as I write) replace stun grenade with Berserker. This will give back the old mercenary feel to Tactical Mercenary since 0 of the Evolved Classes have Berserker anymore.

Please take this into consideration and..
DON'T SCROLL OVER THIS WITHOUT READING!!!!

Mwahaahaaaa, The forum says nothing about font size, this post IS legal!

Actually, over sized fonts are not allowed according to the Universal Forum Rules. Please do not use font larger than size 3. ~Ashari

< Message edited by Ashari -- 5/27/2012 23:41:21 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 584
5/27/2012 23:17:54   
Mr. Black OP
Member

^
Haze just sounds like a stronger version of SA.
What do you mean by a "special?"
Epic  Post #: 585
5/27/2012 23:22:33   
Combatoid
Member

^
Such as BunkerBuster, SuperCharge, PlasmaBolt, Berserker, Fireball. and Haze will be like smokescreen but it will lower block chance not defence.

< Message edited by Combatoid -- 5/27/2012 23:23:09 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 586
5/28/2012 3:50:11   
Archlord Raistlin
Member
 

 @ Mr Black OP i agree...passive armors are necessary because if ur not a tank...good luck, and in my 2 years
of playing 2v2, multi was not "necessary" to be considered a good 2v2 player. Not everyone
used a multi skill in 2v2 to be successful...it was just a good build option.

@ND You have played some 2v2 and you should know that multi builds were never a "must have". When you pay
half or more of your energy on a skill it should be EFFECTIVE. Here's the big picture as I see it:

1. TLM caused all of the original TANK issues. If you're not a tank, good luck in your matches, and a 75% multi is
NOT EFFECTIVE against tanks. In fact, TLM's were the original support/multi abusers...

2. Multi cost is WAY OVERPRICED for the damage it deals to 2 players...evidenced everywhere in 2v2. I don't even
consider emp to avoid a multi in most cases.

3. The psychology of this change stinks...no one wants to spend all that energy to hit for 15 damage, nor do they
want to prolong the match to make everyone feel good or be politically correct. Luck is bad enough at prolonging
almost every match.

4. Not everyone abused multi...but now everyone pays for it by making it a "must not have" skill.

Some skills will always be the basis to form a strategy...multi is one of them, especially for 2v2. How many builds have
you centered around energy grenade? As a 4th level skill, you would think it would be AWESOME...lol (it's not)

Just return the multi skill as a "good" option for 2v2 builds and regroup...
Post #: 587
5/28/2012 6:41:24   
Arevero
Member

Tech Mages have Assimilate and Reroute, both EP giving. Chs have a Static skill that NEEDS STR. Comparing EMP to atom, and saying we can get and take EP at the same time, well TMs can do that too. The reason why we HAVE to tank is that we have PA, we MUST tank, look at the builds out there, 6/10 is tank, 4/10 is STR. Why... because we CHs are forced to do it, some CHs are enjoying tanking, not bothered if CH gets nerfed, because they will just jump to the next 'OP-considered' class.

Our static is nerfed SO BAD, we can't even get enough EP to heal. Not to mention, we need a good set of blades and STR. You say atom needs STR and etc, well then static needs same. Perhaps you think that is not enough, well then atom costs VERY little amount of EP. EMP may take a lot of EP, but remember, we CHs can't get much EP back now, from 60% to 55% to 44% and now a ridiculous 29%. You may think we are OP, well we are not, we are FORCED to be, if you can't understand that i suggest you become a CH right now.

I have seen a lot of people before on forums claiming to say CH was alright, then when they switched class the immediately started going against it. I love CH, it's a great class, but right now the problem existing here isn't OUR fault. Take out PA and etc. And if are still not satisfied, make EMP cost more or lesser EP steal.

I'd rather have 60% static than PA and tanking combined, why? Because it's FUN and it does not force us to go with Tanking.

Players like Joe010112 and Amber Rayne all improvised unique builds, they tried, but these builds were hard to use, and often required a lot of strategy to get a win. And i respect them for that because they do not go tanking and wanting to win every match. They want to have FUN, have an EPIC time, and now, PA is like a weed, pulling us down.

Either implement Trans idea(even weaker if you want, because i hate PA right now), or completely take out PA.

All i can say is, if you blame us, then try and be one of us to see our situation, it's easy for you to say nerf them, but it's hard when you are in the position we CHs are in.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Multis needs a fix, my friends that i introduced ED to love 2v2, but Multi is just completely hindering them. i want to ask the balance team, why did you change Multi, was it too powerful? Or was it giving advantage to BHs since they get HP from this ability.

Archlord Raistlin is completely right, this skill isn't needed in 2v2, it just adds more strategy, and fun, now it is just left in the dust like some sort of broken material. 75% is unacceptable, not to mention it takes a lot of stat points to make Multis good. Now it's like paying 125% of the stats to get the good damage compared to before.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 588
5/28/2012 9:38:44   
Hun Kingq
Member

Well hopefully staff will see that reducing the damage of the multis was a big mistake. plasma Rain was already weak and I never got 100% on each target in 2vs2 and if I did it would have been great 80 damage on each target but only way I could get damage in the mid 40s on each target on occasion is to have 180 dex that was with Reflex boost on. If a player has to boost or malfunction players in 2vs2 to get high damage that skill is quite weak. The lowest damage I seen from Plasma rain was 5 on each target that was with the tech mage dex at 101 (29-35).

They need to take a look at all multis re-scale them and test them in 2vs2 in the game servers not the development servers at different stat levels so they can see the actual in game results. If a staff a Blood Mage in 2vs2 the Hunters in the game need to EMP them multiple times so they could see how that feels as well but you won't or the mec classes Atom smash them over and over again but you won't.

Well hopefully when they come back Tuesday they fix what ever happen between Saturday night and Monday because with as much strength I have I should be getting more damage. Other Blood Mages that have a strength build have notice the same thing. Maybe it was because I beat the actual Nightwraith.
Epic  Post #: 589
5/28/2012 9:46:40   
Joe10112
Member

First of all, let me say this:

2v2 is broken.

Why?

The quest Yin and Yang requires you to get 5 2v2 wins.

3 hours later, I have 4/5 2v2 wins. 4 wins, 20 losses. Simply said, it's broken. Countless times it's me and another nonvar against two fully gearned vars.

And Arevero, I must correct your statement-right now I am tanking, simply because it's the only thing that WORKS. Nothing else does now.

What's funny is that after I mentioned the Synergy posts, I start to see more and more and more and more SUP Mercs/TLMs. And believe me, SUP BUILDS ARE WORKING FOR MERCS most of the time. I'm serious. They actually work, and all I did (not saying I "created" the Merc "revolution", but all that people had to do was look at the stats and go "Oh! Merc's have a bunch of things that improve with SUP! Therefore, let's UTILIZE THAT!)

And I must say again, and why are people ignoring? Unless you can tell me exactly why my logic is flawed (and it might very well be), CH HAS NO TWO UNBLOCKABLE DAMAGING SKILLS THAT IMPROVE WITH THE SAME THING!

If I must:

BH: Reflex Boost paired with Multi+Stun Grenade
TM: The whole right side of their skill tree, plus their Ultimate
Merc: SUP = Blood Commander (primary and gun) + Artillery Strike + Aux + FIRST TURN CHANCES!
TLM: See Merc.
BM: STR-Fireball, and Deadly Aim (although uses SUPPORT, relies on Gun Damage = Unblockable). Also, ~Bludgeon although it is blockable. Not sure, could be wrong, but TECH = Plasma Cannon + Multi + Supercharge? Or maybe just Plasma Cannon + Supercharge, I forget if Plasma Rain is now DEX or TECH. But there are TWO combinations of TWO unblockable damaging skills that improve with same thing.

CH: NOTHING. No two skills improve with the same thing that are unblockable and damage. I invite you to take a look.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 590
5/28/2012 11:30:12   
ND Mallet
Legendary AK!!!


 @archlord Yes I have played 2vs2 quite often and I can promise you that Multi was by far the best skill in that mode for the simple fact that it hit two players for full damage. You could play as other builds without Multi but chances were that you couldn't manage to outdo it very well. When it hits two players, it was doing twice the normal damage but split between two targets. It would be like using Double Strike or Cheapshot on two enemies in the same turn but more expensive. The increased cost wasn't enough to actually stop everyone from using it. The most common phrase I've heard in 2vs2 before the Multi when people got in an unfair match was "My partner doesn't even have a multi skill." And I can be honest and say I've thought the very same thing before as well.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 591
5/28/2012 12:34:26   
ScarletReaper
Member

Before jumping to any conclusions, let me just remind you all. I WAS a cyberhunter. I switched to techmage because my wins were just a little too easy and I wanted a challenge. Not saying cyberhunters are super overpowered, however....Let me ask you this, Everyone used to complain when tacmercs had smokescreen. Lets think now...they had a debuff, a passive armor, and an energy regain....So they took away smokescreen. Now they are fairly balanced. Now....ch has a debuff, an energy regain, and a passive armor.....hmmmmm. Doesn't take rocket science to fix the problem. Take PA or malf, move emp to teir 3, and problem solved. :p

_____________________________
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 592
5/28/2012 12:44:27   
Darkwing
Member

how to balance CH? they have PA/energy control(emp+SC)/malfunction... but it lacks a skill like bolt/fireball/bunker buster. so why not take out malfunction and give them one of those skills instead?
Post #: 593
5/28/2012 12:48:56   
ScarletReaper
Member

Yeah, that's a good idea. ^
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 594
5/28/2012 13:25:26   
Stabilis
Member

:Dark Wing:

Replace EMP with a burst attack.

You have my support on that.

However! I do not wish to see more Malfunction exploiting, so perhaps the attack should be physical and improve by Support (or Technology).
AQ Epic  Post #: 595
5/28/2012 13:35:17   
King Helios
Member

^How about this. Physical, improves with Support, +5% chance to crit, energy cost of 31 at max. At 100 support, it does 1 more damage at max than Plasma Bolt. Why? Support is less useful. Requires 44 Dex at max (highest skill req. in ED, I believe.)
AQ MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 596
5/28/2012 13:48:49   
Stabilis
Member

Hmm, if it improves by Support I would not suggest critical strike chance since Support improves _____ if you know what I mean. The 5% @ Support would not be overpowered necessarily, but it would be somewhat redundant since Support greatly improves the critical chance already (comparing 5% to a potential 50%).

But perhaps Dual, if you agree that something more consistent (not random chance) would be be easier to control, like temporary Defense nerfs or health bonuses.

Maybe the skill will turn out to be Napalm Strike.

I will create some skill icons when I get home.

EDIT:

I like the damage, the energy costs, but requirements not being necessary if the Support improvement grade is slow or decays.

< Message edited by Depressed Void -- 5/28/2012 13:51:42 >
AQ Epic  Post #: 597
5/28/2012 13:58:12   
King Helios
Member

^OK, how about a 5% chance to reduce the opponent's dexterity by 40% of your support?

EX. You have 60 Support. 60 * .4 = 24. Foe has 5% chance to lose 24 Dexterity.
AQ MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 598
5/28/2012 14:07:41   
JariTheMighty
Member

^A low chance to do something drastic would be annoying. How about 100% chance to do something less drastic? That way there would be more strategy and planning ahead involved.
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 599
5/28/2012 14:09:52   
King Helios
Member

^ -24 Dexterity is drastic?!? A good Smokescreen can do -35.
AQ MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 600
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