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RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI

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9/16/2012 13:05:14   
Mother1
Member

Dragonman111 Plamsa bolt doesn't have a requirement which means there is nothing taken away from spamming that improvement stat. this means that a TM can spam tech to power up plasma bolt without anything taking away from it. All they have to really meet is the min for each weapon and there is nothing taken away from it.

Also granteed to do massive damage? Smokescreen lowers your dex to make it less likely that you will block not grantee you can't block. In case you haven't noticed no matter how low your dex is you still have a 1% chance to block were as with caster TM you can't block or deflect their moves. Plus with the ability to spam tech without consequence it makes for a really OP plasma bolt and an strong supercharge as well. Combine this with malfuction and/or technician and you have even more output damage Plus unlike with Bounty hunters who can only gain energy back with reflex boost, TM gain energy back every turn and with the caster mages who have high health and energy trying to drain their energy is almost impossible.

So while bounty hunter are a pain to deal with at times they can be stopped with energy draining moves, or attacking their weak points where as caster TM are much harder to deal with since their weakness is draining their energy but just about all caster cover that with high energy reserves, and reroute, not to mention the requirement free plasma bolt meaning that this stat can be spammed to death once all the other requirements for weapons are meant.



< Message edited by Mother1 -- 9/16/2012 13:06:33 >
Epic  Post #: 301
9/16/2012 13:26:34   
kittycat
Member

In addition to that, TMs usually bring out Assault Bot (since they lack focus) to nerf the Malfunction applied and use technician to buff themselves as an occupier move(meaning to wait for the cool downs to fade).
AQ MQ  Post #: 302
9/16/2012 13:59:00   
The Astral Fury
Member

Okay we'll I'd be fine with a stat requirement for plasma.
DF AQW  Post #: 303
9/16/2012 15:08:37   
kittycat
Member

Not just a stat requirement, but rather an adequate nerf to be useful enough for low-levels, but not able to exceed the power of super charge at high levels proportionally. reverting the EP nerf would work. Also, they are somewhat immune to Intimidate since they generally rely on technician, and have defense matrix to counter smoke screen. The only way to make intimidate effective is that when the build is out of EP, it would be somewhat effective.

< Message edited by kittycat -- 9/16/2012 15:09:30 >
AQ MQ  Post #: 304
9/16/2012 15:11:27   
Ranloth
Banned


 Just make progression slower (4 Tech/1 damage) like Fireball is now and raise EP cost to 33 to also match FB. EP change would affect everyone so it'd be a bit harder to abuse it at lower levels as well. Win-win?
AQ Epic  Post #: 305
9/16/2012 16:27:11   
The Astral Fury
Member

We still can't nerf it too much, lets just buff the classes enough of these nerfs and TM has been like this a while were just reliazing this now what happended to TM is UP, I'm fine with nerfing Techninan,Defense Matrix and giving Plasma Bolt a stat requirement, but let it increase by every 3 like c'mon give it that one good move the class can have.

< Message edited by dragonman111 -- 9/16/2012 16:30:10 >
DF AQW  Post #: 306
9/16/2012 16:41:23   
Drianx
Member

No no no.
This time the caster Tech Mage (and not only) issue can be solved differently, without nerfing any skill.
Just by applying Agility to Energy too, but at a different pace than Health.
AQW Epic  Post #: 307
9/16/2012 16:42:55   
The Astral Fury
Member

Im so sick of this nerfing buff the other classes so they can be on par dont nerf them so they lose their whole bu

< Message edited by dragonman111 -- 9/16/2012 17:00:31 >
DF AQW  Post #: 308
9/16/2012 18:06:46   
Wootz
Member

Apologies for the awaited reply. Continuing from page 11.

Mother1,
quote:

Ok Wootz when did I call you a poser? I said poster not poser you must have miss the T in poster.

Also with the old static gain it must have been a problem to a lot of players since it was nerf to what it is now. I myself didn't complain about this because it never bothered me when I faced a Cyber hunter, but now that I look at it, and remembering my previous battles it made me think know that static charge was overpowered. Cause as I said before gaining 13-20 energy just because you have to potential to do that damage out of 30% (if you max out static charge) while only scoring 3-7 in some cases in vastly OP. That is what the masses that caused the Admins to do this complained about. As I stated before I never complained about this since it never bothered me when I was fighting against them I could stop certain attacks or make them less effective depending on the class. However there were others who couldn't and I guess enough of these people complained to the point were the nerf happened. Now could you image if reroute was based off that same old formula instead of taking actual damage? I can, and let's just say if it was the caster mages would be unstoppable, and TLM would have energy to last them until the cows come home. It would be a nightmare if you faced these classes especially the caster mage class (which is the type of mage I have the most problems with but can deal with it.)

But as for the heal loop thing cinderalla told us this herself when people were first asking/ complaining about static charge get such a heavy nerf which is why I am saying that. Heck even she didn't like the nerf that happened to static charge, however this is what happens when a certain group of people overly abuse something, and the people who don't like it complain. Eventually something will be done about it.

But on another note what passives did you and a couple of others suggest for protection before plasma armor came out? I would love to hear about some of them since for all we know they might have been better ideas then PA.


Whoops, read it as "poser", apologies.

Again, a Tech Mage, especially an offensive one can regained the same ammount of Energy in the same ammount of time. And caster Tech Mages are way stronger then anything. They can take a lot of damage, heal loop it, and pretty cheaply do a high ammount of damage, which clearly isn't OPd. And Deadly Aim just gives a nice offensive while waiting for the cooldown to end. Most of the high level people managed to counter it, and the problem was on high levels. Cyber Hunter was crap at lower levels and it's an even bigger crap now. Tactical Mercenaries already had that, before Frysteland. Here's an idea. Why not nerf Caster Tech Mages?

Fine, I'll search these 11 discussion about my suggestion.

By the way, I found this: Clicky <- balance much

My suggestion: Link

Random suggestion:
1

< Message edited by Wootz -- 9/16/2012 18:50:53 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 309
9/16/2012 18:46:46   
Mother1
Member

Wootz It is ok, we all make mistakes so I accept you apology.

As for nerfing caster TM's that is what the last couple of posts have been about or rather just nerfing the OP plasma bolt. Remember when they changed plasma rain to dex? That was done to nerf casters mages since they abused the crap out of tech while using plasma rain and plasma bolt. Also the majority of casters I have seen don't even use deadly aim, but use the skill points for plasma bolt, reroute, and supercharge mostly. However the fatal flaw in trying to nerf casters was when they buffed the plasma bolt but forgot to lower it back to it's original level. While I know it is ok to struggle against certain builds because that is where the balance lies, it isn't ok for that same build you struggle against to be so powerful that it can mop the floor with almost every other build and can only be taken out effectively by another person of that build.

Dragonman111 if they did nothing but buffs then duels would would be extremely short since all the classes would be OP. It would be down to who can be the most overpowered and that isn't balance at all. While no one likes nerfs they are needed to maintain balance within the game. If they never nerfed str blood mages, then they would still be kicking the butts of just about every other class. This would cause extreme choas especially with the lower levels.

Also what trans suggested is a great Idea. Have it work the same way as fireball does. It can still be a combo with technician and malfunction, however by doing this it will still be powerful without it 2 turning a person. Remember this nerf won't be as strong as it would be with a blood mage because unlike blood mages who can't weaken defense or up their attack power Tech mages can lower resistance, and up the tech to power up the plasma bolt so it will be still be strong but not to the point where it is extremely overpowered.

Drianx even if this was done Plasma bolt would still be overpowered. it has no stat requirement which means all you need to do is met the min's for your weapons, and then spam the rest of your points into tech after giving yourself good energy and health, and boom we got a tech spamming caster. Also it gains power way to fast. Remember how fireball used to work? It is even worse then that since unlike the old fireball plasma bolt doesn't have a stat requirement and powers up at the same rate. While the old fireball was powerful it pales in comparison to how Plasma bolt is now. This nerf will help the take the sting out of it, but won't hurt the lower levels too much since that can still use malf and/or technician to buff it and have a decent combo without two turn the other classes especially the merc who can't protect themselves from debuffs as effectively as before due to the nerf of the assault and rusted assault bots (since the staff thought they were too useful.)
Epic  Post #: 310
9/16/2012 18:47:41   
The Astral Fury
Member

Sigh enough OP class and eother nerf this games getting with the balance buff the other classes like jeez.
DF AQW  Post #: 311
9/16/2012 18:51:57   
Ranloth
Banned


 I mean seriously, slower progression and 4EP cost raise will be perfect. Maybe it's not too much raise in EP but always something since it'll take longer to get enough Energy back but it'll also deal ~8 damage less per 100 Tech so yeah, 8 damage less and 4 EP more is good enough to nerf just Caster TMs. I mean, who else will it affect? Just Casters, no one else nor any other build.
AQ Epic  Post #: 312
9/16/2012 18:54:12   
The Astral Fury
Member

And guys it kinda annoying spending over 10k varuim on a class with enchanments and all and they they nerf the one thing that the entire build centered on just buff the other classes this is ridicoully really.
DF AQW  Post #: 313
9/16/2012 18:54:13   
Wootz
Member

Mother1,
Exactly. Take a look at that picture I linked. That Tactical Mercenary was undefetable. Had a Solo battle with AlphaKodiac, who's an Caster Tech Mage. Barerly beaten him (got a block, thank God) in 15 rounds.

I'll keep updating my previous post for other suggestions.
And give me your thoughts on my suggestion.

< Message edited by Wootz -- 9/16/2012 18:55:21 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 314
9/16/2012 19:14:42   
Mother1
Member

Wootz Wow that tech merc is a str abuse nightmare. It makes the str blood mages look like a joke since blood mages never had smoke while tech merc did. Though oddly enough i had more problems with cyber hunters then technical mercs back when I was a non varium tech mage.

As for the skill trees some of those ideas I know wouldn't fly. I remember trans consistantly saying that plasma armor wouldn't be removed and it is here to stay but with the removing of the passive armor for reroute while it would be nice, I think it might make certain CH go back to using min energy. If that could be prevented then I would give the thumbs up.

As for the blood mage skill tree, giving them assimilate over Plasma rain might cause str Blood mages to come back. Assimilate is a move that is powered by str, and removing a move that is powered by dex for a move powered by str. (since the damage itself works with str not the effect) even if it is blockable. I could see it now fireball, deadly aim, bludgeon, and assimilate. while these moves could be blocked the combined power of these moves and energy drain could be devastating. Lastly even if it isn't used anymore since it was switched over to dex the class would be without a multi putting them at a disadvantage in two vs two's.

As for Tech merc this build while it would stop the energy abuse it would bring back the strength tech merc's and while it wouldn't be as overpowered as before (if static is kept on actual and not raw damage) Str tech mercs would only need to smoke, and use powerful physical attacks to crush their enemies, and with a str tech merc they would be able to make static work close to the way it used to because they would have high str, the opponents would have low defense, and with static being based on actual damage it would be a nightmare.

Epic  Post #: 315
9/16/2012 19:24:01   
Wootz
Member

I had problems with everyone when I was a F2P Bounty Hunter with Tesla E, Maple Cleaver, Bang gun, Carrierzooka and a defensive build. I bet that Tactical Mercenary was the best player in the game, at the time.

I didn't like those, except the Blood Mage one. Static Charge most likely. Yeah, full offensive, low defenses, high HP = low Energy pool + high damage output.

It would be a good addition to it. But who really needs multi? It's nerfed in 2v2s anyway.

Would be a bigger nightmare then it was.
----
My suggestion? xD
AQW Epic  Post #: 316
9/16/2012 19:42:50   
Mother1
Member

Well that is understandable, since all the new classes were overpowered back then while the older ones were more UP. I only had trouble with CH back then because of that Plasma armor along with most of them being tanks CH. It was a royal pain back then especially if you were a free to play person going against a full varium player.

But I did forget to mention the positives I did see in those suggestions.

For blood mages they would have their own energy draining move just like all the other classes oh and oops sorry I saw what was removed I thought it was plasma rain but instead it was bludgeon sorry. Just ignore my last statements about overpoweing str BM, and not having a multi. However having BM have both technician and reflex boost seems to spell trouble.

Tech mercs would have a debuffing skill again, but with the way str tech merc's were back in the day if one was to resurface from this I think they would be able to use the nerfed static effectively with the perviously mentioned combo,

As for Ch EMP wouldn't be easy access anymore and would be on par with the BH EMP in tree tiers.

< Message edited by Mother1 -- 9/16/2012 19:44:44 >
Epic  Post #: 317
9/16/2012 19:48:40   
Wootz
Member

Indeed, some more then others. I'm talking about the time before the Frysteland balance changes.

It's quite interesting reading the old threads. Didn't know that I've been in it since no. 1.
AQW Epic  Post #: 318
9/16/2012 21:17:53   
Stabilis
Member

I would still suggest that the Infernal Android uses a different archetype.

1.5 damage per use on the special for the remainder of the battle far overshoots the damage range of the other robots, including the Gamma bot. If I may suggest, having increased damage on the special is acceptable, but then the damage should reset, since there should be a consequence from a high damage burst just as skills like Plasma Bolt do with an energy cost. Though robots are not skills and do not work by using energy since they are weapons.

That is why I recommend that the damage of the special begins at normal damage and ends above normal damage, similar as it is today.

Special Attack: A deflectable laser that progressively becomes stronger after each turn, but using it resets the damage. Starts at 100% of total damage, it gains +10% per turn up to a limit of 140%.

Now hear me out on this one. The robot's special attack will not begin charging as soon as it is used. The charging begins when the special attack has finished cooldown. It is not logical to apply charging when the robot is cooling down, since the robot is not an option during cooldown... it should not be involved in the player's affairs. Why have it start at a certain value during cooldown and charge anyhow when those values will not be counted? That would be redundant. That is why I am suggesting that the applications to the robot's special attack take effect when the robot is in fact an option.

So it would look like this:

TURN1: Infernal Android Special Attack at 100% damage, READY
TURN2: Infernal Android Special Attack at 110% damage
TURN3: Infernal Android Special Attack at 120% damage
TURN4: Infernal Android Special Attack at 130% damage
TURN5: Infernal Android Special Attack at 140% damage
TURN6: PLAYER USES Infernal Android Special Attack, Infernal Android Special Attack RESET
TURN7: Infernal Android Special Attack COOLDOWN
TURN8: Infernal Android Special Attack COOLDOWN
TURN9: Infernal Android Special Attack COOLDOWN
TURN10: Infernal Android Special Attack at 100% damage, READY
TURN11: Infernal Android Special Attack at 110% damage
TURN12: Infernal Android Special Attack at 120% damage
TURN13: Infernal Android Special Attack at 130% damage
TURN14: Infernal Android Special Attack at 140% damage

< Message edited by Depressed Void -- 9/16/2012 21:19:55 >
AQ Epic  Post #: 319
9/16/2012 22:00:49   
Mother1
Member

Depressed void no this would make the bot a quick kill thing all over again. even with the cooldown people would just wait until rage and with the way it reaches max power it would force focus build on users all over again. It would be like become this build or die.

< Message edited by Mother1 -- 9/16/2012 22:07:02 >
Epic  Post #: 320
9/16/2012 23:19:19   
Stabilis
Member

This is actually even less powerful than pre-nerf Infernal Android and nerf-Infernal Android. Not only does the player have 10% less of a modifier, but the accumulated charge from the special attack disappears from usage and must be waited on 3 turns to reach the maximum capacity. You can see it in the example itself Mother1, turn 5 allows the first maximum charge, and then again at turn 14. Both attacks are still turned to cooldown after using just 1 of the 2. You also need to prove how Focus builds are forced on this change, Focus is already the best build format to maximize the Robot anyhow, so do explain. Evolve or die is a generic phrase that anyone could scuffle. So do explain how these phrases apply to the change. Thanks for the constructive feedback.
AQ Epic  Post #: 321
9/17/2012 0:41:30   
Mother1
Member

Remember how when the bot first came out? it was so overpowered that it was destroying any build that had the bot and even then it didn't have start with this much power. The only difference besides the cool down where it resets is that the beam is deflectable.

As for how it would be abused people would do just like they did before with focus builds while spamming tech to power up the bot. They would wait for it to get to it's max power, while beating you up, and then when it is time for rage they will use the special to finish you off. It doesn't help that it will be at 140% of it's max power since by the time it gets to rage it will be fully powered up.

Also this would benefit focus builds who spam tech the most since tech powers up the robot, and focus adds extra power to it. Sure it reset's itself after use and doesn't power up until it is usable again with your idea, however most players will race to finish the duel before this drawback can happen. It will eat through resistance like it is nothing, and people would be complaining like they were the first time.

In other words what I am saying is that people will abuse this and use it for a kill since the power will stay there until it is used. Hence why I said it would become become a focus 5 tech spammer or die since you will have to be join them to be able to compete with them since level 5 focus tech tanks will abuse this.
Epic  Post #: 322
9/17/2012 1:02:22   
kaiseryeux21
Member

just a simple question, how can a bounty hunter beat a tech spamming techmage with 45-52 tech, 21-26+9 defense??

scenario, if Bounty hit first

BH Smoke
TM defense matrix level3 (+24)
u know what will happen next

if TM hit first

TM plasma,
BH no way can win the battle. Proven and tested already.
DF Epic  Post #: 323
9/17/2012 1:04:11   
Joe10112
Member

@Kaiseryeux21:

BH Smoke
TM DM
BH Energy Shield/EMP

...Problem?
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 324
9/17/2012 1:07:31   
kaiseryeux21
Member

@joe BH shield is fine, but emp??

what if ur a str. BH like me?? ur energy gun can do only 10-12 becuase of super high tech
and ur primary?? How can u hit with +9 tesla and +24 defense matrix??
loose a turn??
DF Epic  Post #: 325
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