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Solution to Balance? - Getting Rid of Classes

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4/7/2013 2:50:33   
goldslayer1
Member

how about getting rid of classes?

theres always constant problems about how one class is stronger than another.
well what if there is no class?

here's one suggestion iv'e made a couple years ago which i felt should be rewritten now since the game allows for more possibilities because of its new engine.

what if your build skill tree was completely custom?
by this i mean being able to choose your own skills to put in your tree, from a large pool of skills.

before someone goes "NO!!, i dont wanna see people with reroute, blodlust, and mineral armor in the same build" there should obviously be limitations regarding such things, so hear me out.

each move you pick, can be chosen from certain categories.
for example

Passives: Primary passive
Mineral armor
Plasma armor
Hybrid armor
Reroute
Bloodlust

Sub Passive: secondary passive
Shadow Arts
deadly aim
Static charge
Assimilation
adrenaline

Specials:
Massacre
Surgical Strike
Super Charge

Energy Drainers:
EMP
Atom Smasher

Stun:
Maul
Stun Grenade
Plasma Grenade
Overload


these are just examples of what the categories would look like.
each of these skills would cost X amount of points to acquire.

for example, lets say players have 40 points to acquire custom skills.
passives are worth 12, sub passives are worth 8
energy drainers are worth 4, stuns are worth 4, and specials are worth 8

so if i wanted bloodlust(12), deadly aim(8), massacre(8), atom smasher(4), and maul(4)
that would be 36 points.
i now only have X amount left for other moves i would like to put in my skill tree.
(these numbers are for examples only)

this would allow FULL customization of your build and much more creativity than we have now. literally.
your thoughts?

< Message edited by goldslayer1 -- 4/7/2013 2:57:05 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 1
4/7/2013 2:52:35   
theholyfighter
Member

quote:


Sub Passive: secondary passive
Shadow Arts
deadly aim
Static charge
Assimilation
adrenaline

They're actives...

------------------------------------------------------


By the way, I'd like to see every class having 2-3 skills that are "LOCKED" to the class, then having the other skills Custom.

< Message edited by theholyfighter -- 4/7/2013 2:54:13 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 2
4/7/2013 2:54:36   
goldslayer1
Member

@holy
so is assimilation then.

w/e the terminology may be. u get my point, an active category could be made for the ones like static charge.

to add to the original post

this will allow much more creativity than we have now. literally.

quote:

By the way, I'd like to see every class having 2-3 skills that are "LOCKED" to the class, then having the other skills Custom.


yeah i was thinking that they should still keep the classes, but for lower lvls or beginners (or non vars?) as a base to build their own tree from.

it wouldn't exactly be a class, they would just get the skill tree from a BH, or a TLM just so they can get the feel of the game first.

sort of like a "default" skill tree, and they can build upon it as they progress in the game.

< Message edited by goldslayer1 -- 4/7/2013 2:57:52 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 3
4/7/2013 3:03:16   
Baron Dante
Member

While the idea wouldn't be all that bad in theory, it doesn't actually solve the issue of balance. In fact, it might make it worse. Since all skills can now be stacked with each another (With the restrictions, obviously), it means there's a need to keep a constant balance so that no certain combination becomes blatantly overpowered. Right now, with 6 classes, there's need to deal with 6 different variables with their own multitude of sub-variables within it, that are within a limited amount of combinations. With this system, it becomes way more difficult to keep everything in check. Just keeping to the amount of skills, that's 19. These all have further branching sub-variables now.

This basically means that instead of keeping 6 different things in balance, it becomes 19.

And the need for balance to be spot on grows even bigger. Right now, as we established, there're 6 classes, with the aim of them being as close to equal as possible. However, in the case of each of them having one build inherently better than the others doesn't mean the entire metagame begins to revolve around that, and only that single build (It does. To an extent). Here, it would basically mean variation between players that want wins becomes exactly zero. A single build with no viable counters, and no other equally good builds means one single build blatantly takes the entire game. As such, it kills variety entirely.

And since there is no longer need to change classes, the amount of effort made to change to the winning build becomes even lower, making more peole actually DO that. Only if the balance is spot on would this work, and there, all the skills and other shenanigans need to synergize with each another without becoming broken. So yes, balance becomes even more impossible to manage.

(Also all skills would be invidually priced tbh)

So ultimately, while it's a neat idea, I wouldn't go with it.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 4
4/7/2013 3:24:28   
goldslayer1
Member

@baron
instead of having to balance classes, you would need to balance individual skills instead.

as for the class change part.
class change/skill tree change can still be charged a price.

much like retraining, but for your skill tree.
this could be varium, or a large amount of credits.

either way, you now have more variety, and creativity but with much more limitless possibilities.

so instead of changing 6 times for each class, you can change an unlimited amount of times for a skill tree (again this would cost a price, not like 500 credits)

and yeah skills would need to be individually priced.
the thing about this is, you only have so much to spend.
and once ur skill tree is done, you still have to fill it out with your skill points to lvl up those skills.

this would also allow the devs to put in more skills (suggested skills for example) into the game, without having to take away from any current class, or have to make a complete new class for the new skills. all they would do is add the skill to the shop.

think of it like buying cores, but for skills into your skill tree, with a limit.

and you can limit certain categories to where you can only pick 1 skill from that category, like passives.



to add to this claws, clubs, and staffs would be for considered 1 type. and swords would still have a separation.
so theres more customization in terms of being able to use claws, clubs or staffs with whatever the skill may be.

so you would be able to use massacre using a club, or super charge using claws. depending on what your tree may be.

EDIT: all skill trees will have field medic in them.

< Message edited by goldslayer1 -- 4/7/2013 3:31:38 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 5
4/7/2013 3:39:03   
Baron Dante
Member

Yes, you would balance individual skills. However, right now, they balance classes, which also need to balance skills. Removing classes from the equation leaves only skills to balance. Now, this causes the need to balance the skills among a larger group of skills. Before, skills were a group. Now they are individuals, much like classes were. It will now be harder to actually balance them, especially when you have so much variety unexpected things WILL happen. Let's say the average amount of skills a player wants to cram to his skill tree is 6. 19 different skills means there would be about 2 million different skill combinations. This isn't accurate, of course, and will actually be much higher. Instead of the 6 figures to balance, they now need to do the same thing with millions of such figures. If something becomes good, everyone will go for it because there is no longer class change.

No class change means easier build changing, as the retraining price shouldn't change (Since you can't really make this require class change kind of prices. If you choose terrible skills, you are stuck with those, and have little to no hope of ever recovering)

Adding more skills causes a similar issue. Cores already show how just a single addition can break the entire game, more or less. Say, Azrael. It was useful for most builds, but Strength builds were able to blatantly abuse it to ridiculous level. Yes, it was nerfed later on, but it STILL left us in a different situation than what was before it. It adds another variable to a mix that needs to stay balanced. And, as I've said, precise balance becomes even more important.


And, as much as I'd love to say this will bring creativity... heh, not for ED. The playerbase of ED is very largely going to rely on the safe and reliable (Read: Whatever works is fine, no need to think up anything original), which leaves only a handful of players to actually bring the originality.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 6
4/7/2013 3:46:44   
goldslayer1
Member

quote:

No class change means easier build changing, as the retraining price shouldn't change (Since you can't really make this require class change kind of prices. If you choose terrible skills, you are stuck with those, and have little to no hope of ever recovering)

Retraining skill points and stats would be completely different from changing your skill tree. (not sure if that was clear in the previous post)

the point of this idea is to think outside the box.
having skills being forcibly crammed into a class which you cant change is keeping you inside the box.

i know there are potential problems, but if we're gonna have bad balance, may as well be fully custom.
although i think there will be much more build types than just 1 "OP" and then everyone switches to that.

you yourself said theres millions of combinations. if players stick to only one, they are bound to fail.

quote:

The playerbase of ED is very largely going to rely on the safe and reliable

this is mainly because of records. win ratios and things like that.

AQW isn't a pvp game and never was, but pvp was fun in AQW (im talking 2010 here :P). win or lose. it didn't matter because you didn't have a page publishing your failures. (although this one is a different topic)

< Message edited by goldslayer1 -- 4/7/2013 3:49:53 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 7
4/7/2013 4:02:04   
Baron Dante
Member

quote:

Retraining skill points and stats would be completely different from changing your skill tree. (not sure if that was clear in the previous post)


You were clear enough. But the issue is, if the price is anything that actually holds relevance (Seriously. Does anyone NOT have 500 Credits?), it easily causes issues with a terrible build that doesn't win, and they can't change the actual skill tree, which they need to do since nothing worthwhile can be build from their current one.

quote:

you yourself said theres millions of combinations. if players stick to only one, they are bound to fail.


They wouldn't. If a certain group of skills form a combination that does better than any other known build, they will be able to rack good enough wins.

quote:

this is mainly because of records. win ratios and things like that.


This is an entirely different issue, but the issue would still carry over to this new system.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 8
4/7/2013 4:06:57   
goldslayer1
Member

quote:

(Seriously. Does anyone NOT have 500 Credits?)

when i said skill tree change would have a cost. i was referring to varium, much like it is for class changers. (would also have a credit option)

like i mentioned in a previous posts.
new players would start out with a "default" skill tree.
these default skill trees would be BH, TLM, tech mage, BM, and merc.
so theres no choosing a very bad skill tree and being stuck with it.

besides, NPCs give credits. isn't that why everyone whined and moaned about removing the wins for?

< Message edited by goldslayer1 -- 4/7/2013 4:07:53 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 9
4/7/2013 4:31:23   
Baron Dante
Member

Yes yes yes. But somehow I don't really see farming for thousands, if not tens of thousands of Credits from NPCs with an extremely sub-par build as a really viable choice. If the amount needed goes unchanged, (50k) that's over 1500 battles at the level cap just to change your skill tree, which is most likely something you need to change your build.

Because seriously. People aren't going to build themselves a skill tree with the assumption the build they are planning is not gonna work. They will only implement things that are absolutely necessary for it. This leads to the point that it would really need to be part of the entire retraining, pretty much, and that can't be overly expensive for reasons I made on NPC farming.

quote:

new players would start out with a "default" skill tree.


Would you be able to get one of these default ones for free at anytime, even after you've already changed your build?
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 10
4/7/2013 5:04:57   
Ranloth
Banned


 Devs have already said before that deleting classes isn't a solution. Not mentioning returning everyone to their base classes (what if they switched from Merc to TM, stayed as TM and got reversed to Merc?), players demanding refunds, lower playerbase since it'd be unjust... and it's a bad idea overall, that will not be happening. For whatever reasons you may state, deleting classes is not happening to "fix" balance.
AQ Epic  Post #: 11
4/7/2013 8:04:02   
Necromantres
Member

Like in Mass Effect 3 Multiplayer ... while it's interesting and fun it don't resolve the problems right now (balance , OP builds etc)
Epic  Post #: 12
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