What if every skill was percent based? (Ex. Plasma Bolt)


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What if every skill was percent based? (Ex. Plasma Bolt)

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6/22/2013 20:25:35

Midnightsoul
Member

Hi guys,

So a thought came into my head again. I was thinking about the possibilities of making all the moves like Plasma Bolt or like Bunker Buster percent based. For example (numbers are not official)...

Let's say I had 100 technology...
Plasma Bolt

Lvl 1: 20% of your technology (20 damage)
Lvl 2: 35%
Lvl 3: 50%
Lvl 4: 57%
Lvl 5: 64%
Lvl 6: 71%
...
Lvl 10: 95% (95 damage)

In the outcome, I believe this can help make the other stats on par with the strength stat because of the efficient damage it gives and I do know that this will take time to balance.

Do you think RabbleFroth should give this a shot?

< Message edited by Midnightsoul -- 6/25/2013 1:04:13 >

AQW

Epic

Post #: 1

6/22/2013 20:29:52

killerman164
Member

Lots of things would be op if it was high percentage based, tech abuse builds could do worse... If the max % was 55. I'll consider supporting that.

Post #: 2

6/22/2013 20:35:26

Mother1
Member

The moves that are percent based are all melee moves that work with they primary weapon. If you noticed every strength move (except fireball) works like this because they are melee. Making moves work like that midnightsoul would Overpower them

While making them work the way Killerman suggested would be nerfing them.

Epic

Post #: 3

6/23/2013 2:00:16

Midnightsoul
Member

^Well, we need time to make sure the moves are balanced. Like I said, my numbers are not official

AQW

Epic

Post #: 4

6/23/2013 9:05:29

King Helios
Member

Supported; useful for when you have 1 stat to go to increase weapon damage, but nothing left to put in that stat.

AQW

Epic

Post #: 5

6/23/2013 9:33:20

Ranloth
Banned

It really shouldn't work in that way. Melee attacks do it because they rely on your Primary weapon, likewise with Gun and DA. Skills are already partially scaled by level and your Technology and give you a fixed numbers. Changing it would cause imbalance yet again for no reason or whatsoever, not only that, it'd be hard to balance a skill without affecting everyone - for example: what if 150 Tech is OP with Lvl 5 Bolt but with 80 Tech, it's UP? Nerf one, affect the other. Whilst now, you can find out where exactly the problem is and still affect everyone but not on such scale.

quote:

useful for when you have 1 stat to go to increase weapon damage, but nothing left to put in that stat

Nope. It's all rounded so I don't see how this would make a change unless it's from 84 -> 85 or 94 -> 95, where rounding to a nearest full number would make a difference (10% of 94 = 9.4 (9), 10% of 95 = 9.5 (10)).

Epic

Post #: 6

6/23/2013 10:37:19

DarkDevil
Member

not supporting.
55% of 80 tech is 44 damage while 95% of 150 tech is 142 damage so its too low when low and too high when high , that's why there are base points when leveling and a stat gain formula so skills won't get too much from stat nor too low from leveling up.

Epic

Post #: 7

6/23/2013 10:59:47

Mother1
Member

This idea would destroy focus builds at mid to higher levels if put into play because this would make their damage even weaker while stat abuse builds would really benefit from this.

Oh god the horror this would bring for lower levels especially at lower level where most players use glass cannon builds there would be no planning and whoever goes first will win even if they have his defenses in that area since maxed out attacks would be OP.

Epic

Post #: 8

6/23/2013 11:35:16

Midnightsoul
Member

We could kinda have Plasma Bolt based on resistance. Multi-Shot based on defense....etc.

< Message edited by Midnightsoul -- 6/23/2013 11:37:02 >

AQW

Epic

Post #: 9

6/23/2013 11:42:46

Ranloth
Banned

And what is wrong with the existing system? It's additional work for what kind of purpose? If it's variety then it's not necessary because it'd be VERY similar to the existing system but with a little bit of imbalance after initial changes, so basically repeating all the problems we've had.

Epic

Post #: 10

6/23/2013 11:52:41

killerman164
Member

^Good point there. Assuming how years ago we had to balance EVERY OP SKILL. We can't just rebuild everything, they will take days going balance by balance.

Post #: 11

6/23/2013 18:28:27

sky222
Member

It wouldn't really matter once you balance the %s

AQW

Epic

Post #: 12

6/23/2013 18:42:49

Ranloth
Banned

What if there's imbalance? How will you adjust it then? And why is the change needed in the first place, can you evaluate at least? It may provide different numbers but I don't see how it's gonna be different to the current system which works just fine with level scaling + fixed numbers, instead of %s which are only for Melee weapons. It's a wasted time balancing something that doesn't need to be balanced and less time on developing something that really is needed.

Epic

Post #: 13

6/24/2013 21:09:08

Midnightsoul
Member

The fear of change probably won't get anything done. And another problem is how unwilling Rabble is to undo his balance changes.

AQW

Epic

Post #: 14

6/24/2013 21:40:46

Mother1
Member

@ midnightsoul

Please explain to me how this new system will not encourage stat spamming builds while punishing every other build that doesn't spam a single stat? Cause going by your idea this is what that will encourage High HP quick kill stat spamming builds.

Defensive builds will be a thing of the past as well as focus builds. I will use you example

I have 160 tech due to spamming out technology and I have a max plasma bolt with does 95% damage with my tech. For a cost of 31 energy I will be able to do 154 damage with my plasma bolt before calculations. Even if I am sporting a huge amount of rest 40+ resist (which is a lot) that leaves 114 damage left. Can you tell me how that isn't Overpowered? Even if you reduce that number to 50% at max the stat spammer can still do 80 damage with plasma bolt with will still deal 30-40 damage to an opponent while at the same time anyone who isn't abusing a single stat will do little to no damage.

Epic	Post #: 15

6/25/2013 0:22:35

Midnightsoul
Member

@Mother1
Look, everyone spams already or uses focus, like me. I almost always use focus. The point is not to punish anyone. This is more like a buff futurewise to the other skills that are falling behind like Stun Grenade. We are punishing everyone, but right now, the approximate idea is if we can have it where casters or support builds can be as strong as strength builds. Indirectly, this will help out the balanced builds too beacuse their "falling behind" skills become usable too.

I've repeated twice in my previous posts that my numbers werenot official?
Your example cannot be valid if my example from the first post isn't valid. I even made it bold when I put my first post there. I was also patient enough to state that in my second post too. Below are my reasons.

The reason I proposed this idea is because with every build that is made, strength seems to dominate more easily mostly because of these percent based moves. Why? Because it's always guaranteed to do at least 100% of your weapon damage. This makes strength a pretty solid stat.
When I look at moves like Multi-Shot or Stun Grenade, they're very weak. You'd have to invest a lot to make them strong. Sadly, it might even be able to beat a strength build. Making them percent based on either Defense OR Dexterity would make them more on par with strength skills. I recommend defense (maybe even with the armor bonus) to work beacuse there's a starting amount just like how weapon would work.

On my previous posts, I never said it must work with only dexterity, technology, or support. It can be defense, resistance, auxiliary, and robot damage AND maybe...even with armors. I simply stated percent based. It's an ideal way to make the other stats that are behind more stable like how strength is. If you think about it, this is why strength is good to keep on giving efficient damage constantly. I put some examples on the bottom to let you see how it works.

First Example

So let's say I was a Tech Mage at level 1 and I had plasma bolt.
My resistance is 7-9. Okay. Assume the number 7 was chosen.
So whatever Rabble comes up with the percents to be, if I made it as balanced as possible, level 1 plasma bolt would be 115% of resistance converted to damage.

So I use Plasma Bolt (Level 1). I would do 9 damage.
If it's balanced, maybe Rabble can make it where armors can help those type of skills.

Second Example

I'm level 35. My resistance is 26-32 +5. An average tank.
Let's say now I use Plasma Bolt at MAX (let's pretend it's like 210% resistance). If the RNG hit the 26 (+5), then 31*2.1= 66 damage

66 damage....hm...does that still sound convincing?
It might be a bit strong, but once again, you know for sure a person can't be hitting below average damage.

I wanted was that in a typical build, all moves can be used. I wanted the time in EpicDuel where a level 1 Multi-Shot is just as good as a level 1 Bludgeon or Level 10 Plasma Grenade being just as good as a Level 10 Berzerker.
I wanted....

Skill Equality

Thanks for reading.
-Midnightsoul

< Message edited by Mecha Mario -- 6/25/2013 13:54:35 >

AQW

Epic

Post #: 16

6/25/2013 8:40:15

Ranloth
Banned

I still don't see why the change needs to be made. L1 Multi-Shot to be equal to Bludgeon? Mind you, one is a Multi skill and other is blockable Melee skill that's locked to Physical and attacks one enemy. Even if it's an example, skills such as these should NOT be equal. You're taking away development time on a change that isn't needed. Why will %s fix it whilst fixed (and partially scaled) numbers will not? I don't see that mentioned anywhere.

This is what happens when you discuss balance with two people and they both have different views. Balance goes all over the place because players have separate opinion, some biased at that. That's why community shouldn't have as much power when it comes to balance. It's the exact reason why the balance is as it is now.

Epic

Post #: 17

6/25/2013 10:32:22

Midnightsoul
Member

quote:

L1 Multi-Shot to be equal to Bludgeon? Mind you, one is a Multi skill and other is blockable Melee skill that's locked to Physical and attacks one enemy.

I don't mean just as in they do equal damage. But they both in value, are equal. Like they're both just as...useful compared to one to another in a way.

AQW

Epic

Post #: 18

6/25/2013 10:39:41

Ranloth
Banned

Yes, I understood what you've meant but I still don't see why % > fixed values. %-based moves were always given to Melee-based skills since these require you to have a Primary weapon and fixed numbers wouldn't work out. Having other skills, i.e. Plasma Bolt, work based on % of your stat would result in imbalance at all levels because you can abuse one stat very early on and get the same advantage over players as you do at higher levels - just with poorer defence.

That being said, some skills scale by level as well such as Fireball or Plasma Bolt, so they still get stronger as you level up, without investing into the stat. %s wouldn't be able to do so. Having level scaled system with fixed numbers is superior to %s because these are tougher to balance at a specific level range.

Epic

Post #: 19

6/25/2013 10:41:10

Mother1
Member

@ midnightsoul

Percent skills AKA melee skills are blockable meaning there is more risk involve that the damage can be 85% negated (fully negated in the past) where as scaling moves that don't work with the primary are unblockable.

that right there won't make them equal in value. Melee's do more damage but have the risk of being blocked, where as scaling skills do less but are unblockable and not deflectable.

Epic	Post #: 20

6/25/2013 20:32:04

Midnightsoul
Member

@Mother1

Yeah, I know. Perhaps the moves can be slightly lower in damage to make up for it. As I said previously, they're both equal in values of PvP, just in a different way. One is stronger and riskier, one is weaker and more accurate.
And thanks for understanding.

AQW

Epic

Post #: 21

6/26/2013 7:19:12

Remorse
Member

I have an idea,

What if they changed all STR % moves to plasma bolt style calculations? (excludes a normal strike and anything using a normal strike)

Basically things like, double strike, berserk, massacre etc. will be based of STR only rather than the inclusion of weapon damage because including weapon damage means the STR % skills slowly appreciates in power as the level cap rises over the other skills which is probably the reason for the constant changing of all of the skills and the updating of how they are calculated around a year ago.

< Message edited by Remorse -- 6/26/2013 7:20:22 >

Epic	Post #: 22

6/26/2013 16:42:06

Midnightsoul
Member

@Remorse

Hey, haven't seen you in a while...

But your idea also works too. It's just the complete opposite of what I'm trying to state, but I support that. All I wanted is no move to be stronger or weaker from each other.

AQW

Epic

Post #: 23

6/26/2013 17:10:02

Mother1
Member

@ midnight

So moves that have higher risk should be equal to moves that have no risk have granteed 100% damage?

If the moves have to be equal damage there need to be equal drawbacks to the moves as well.

As it is now as you already know higher damage moves (Melee attacks) have the higher risk with the possibility of being blocked meaning not 100% grantee. While Scaling attacks have the drawback of being weaker but have the benefit of being grantee 100% chance of doing damage.

If you are going to make all moves to the same damage they are going to need equal drawbacks as well. Having melee's equal to scaling attacks yet having Melee's be still blockable while scaling can be 100% damage without drawback will devalue Melee's whether you nerf melee damage to match scaling moves or buff scaling moves to match melee's.

Epic	Post #: 24

6/27/2013 13:07:39

Remorse
Member

^ Not necessarily,

Melee based builds already get the bonus of consistent high power.

Making STR based skills equal to others in power would mean they have the drawback of blocking yes but they get the STR bonus of being able to use Constant high damage with striking AND they get the bonus of being able to improve damage on all the strike based cores etc. then the draw back has already been balanced.

Epic	Post #: 25

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