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A balanced and fun ED; is it possible?

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8/6/2013 5:08:55   
sky222
Member

What would your vision of a balanced ED be?
Would some things be the strongest? If so, how would you solve build copying?
Should the game be mostly about making a good build, or strategizing in battle? If the latter, how would you make sure that people didn't just develop a single strategy against each type of build?
If the former, how would you solve build copying?
How much should luck impact the game? Would you remove it completely? If so, how would first turn work?





As I think we all know, this game has begun its decline. Looking back, realizing what problems this game had wrestle to start, problems that would cripple the fun factor for the game's entire life I think I can say...
This game was almost totally screwed from the start. It would need a phenomenal team to make it work
Back in the day I was like any other guy. I was frustrated with this interesting game that wasn't being done right. I blamed the devs.
Now, 3 years later, I think I know why it wasn't being done right: It couldn't have been done right. The dev team really was trying. It just seemed like they weren't
But I would like to hear your opinions on this conclusion. Do you have solutions to the problems? Do you agree or not? How would you balance ED? How would you make it a fun game too?

< Message edited by sky222 -- 8/6/2013 19:12:04 >
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 1
8/6/2013 6:43:07   
Ranloth
Banned


 With balance being completely subjective as it is now, no, it will never be achieved at the level which people (vast majority) will enjoy. If it was to be objective and not dependent on people's views/opinions as much - ideally very little - then it could be at a much better level.
AQ Epic  Post #: 2
8/6/2013 6:45:43   
odsey
Member

In my opinion one side cannot exist without the other. So maybe almost perfect balance, yes. But I don't think that a complete balance can be achieved.
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 3
8/6/2013 9:34:12   
Lycan.
Member

There was almost perfect balance back in Gamma after they nerfed support
Epic  Post #: 4
8/6/2013 9:38:19   
Q...Q
Member
 

 ^above

Right on chief.
DF Epic  Post #: 5
8/6/2013 10:04:06   
Chosen 0ne
Banned


 It is my belief that if everything is OP nothing is. This is a theory I constructed back in Delta. If every class is able to spam what it does best then they're all equally strong. There are some obvious things that would need to be nerfed though, we can't go back to a 3 hit supercharge ad diamond blades won't come back. If we take out everything that's been in place for such a long time then all builds can be good.

I think Epic Duel would be a lot of fun this way.

(There's a reason I'm not a balance tester, lol)

< Message edited by Chosen 0ne -- 8/6/2013 10:05:35 >
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 6
8/6/2013 10:35:00   
Mother1
Member

@ chosen

Problem was with that and still now only a few select builds will work. Anything else won't work and the people who want to use something else that isn't within these build will complain.

On topic

As trans said as long as balance is subjective there will never be balance which is how it is now since the staff is taking feedback from forums where there are many biased people. If the staff wants balance they need to do things that they agree on, have the testers work it out, and leave it at that.
Epic  Post #: 7
8/6/2013 10:39:09   
Chosen 0ne
Banned


 @mother1
I'm not sure if you understand what I'm saying. This would mean that every stat abusing/focus build would be OP for each class. Who uses different builds than that? Tlms have heal loop and smokescreen strength, BMs can do their two move kills, mercs can stun zerk, use support, bh's have strength, and etc.

Don't people already complain about not being able to use builds? This gives far more variety if you ask me.

< Message edited by Chosen 0ne -- 8/6/2013 10:40:35 >
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 8
8/6/2013 10:42:54   
Rayman
Banned
quote:

There was almost perfect balance back in Gamma

Right, But now we got 3 new classes in the delta phase, that messed up balance again, *Tactical Mercenaries*.
AQW Epic  Post #: 9
8/6/2013 10:53:08   
Lycan.
Member

@Chosen YH I always used to wonder what would happen if the OP Delta BloodMage STR fought a Gamma heal loop support TechMage


< Message edited by Lycan. -- 8/6/2013 11:04:41 >
Epic  Post #: 10
8/6/2013 11:03:05   
Dual Thrusters
Member

We just need to make more builds flexible.
MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 11
8/6/2013 11:23:06   
Segawoman
Member

@Chosen 0ne

quote:

This would mean that every stat abusing/focus build would be OP for each class. Who uses different builds than that?


When you wrote:
quote:

It is my belief that if everything is OP nothing is.


And if no-one uses any other builds than Stat. abuse and Focus builds and the builds be would be OP then that would mean that nothing is OP according to your theory.

Confusing.

< Message edited by Segawoman -- 8/6/2013 11:30:55 >

_____________________________

My computer beat me on checkers, but I beat it at kickboxing!
Epic  Post #: 12
8/6/2013 11:25:33   
Dual Thrusters
Member

@sega

Stat abuse =/= Overpowered

_____________________________
MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 13
8/6/2013 11:29:56   
Segawoman
Member

quote:

Stat abuse =/= Overpowered


Not the answer I was looking for. Sorry.
Epic  Post #: 14
8/6/2013 11:36:19   
Mother1
Member

Problem is as long as we have subjective balance we will never have balance. Why because everyone won't agree that something is balanced, and quite a few will say things to either keep their advantage, and/or weaken what is suppose to counter them.

@ Dual

more like Overused =/= overpowered

Epic  Post #: 15
8/6/2013 12:43:58   
Predator9657
Member

quote:

With balance being completely subjective as it is now, no, it will never be achieved at the level which people (vast majority) will enjoy.


That says it all.
Epic  Post #: 16
8/6/2013 12:59:29   
Segawoman
Member

quote:

That says it all.


This doesn't say it overall.

The balance doesn't have a deadline, dear.


_____________________________

My computer beat me on checkers, but I beat it at kickboxing!
Epic  Post #: 17
8/6/2013 13:14:14   
Predator9657
Member

quote:

This doesn't say it


Yes it does.

quote:

The balance doesn't have a deadline,


quote:

With balance being completely subjective as it is now, no


Where is the "deadline" implied?
Epic  Post #: 18
8/6/2013 13:21:11   
Segawoman
Member

This thread is about balance existing in EpicDuel overall which means that there isn't a deadline to the possibility. You'll never know if you state "no" to the possibility when you don't know.

_____________________________

My computer beat me on checkers, but I beat it at kickboxing!
Epic  Post #: 19
8/6/2013 13:28:43   
Predator9657
Member

quote:

overall which means that there isn't a deadline to the possibility


Did I ever say there was a deadline?

quote:

You'll never know if you state "no" to the possibility when you don't know.

I made that part bold on purpose:

quote:

With balance being completely subjective as it is now, no

Implying that a balanced ED is possible if balance stops being completely subjective as it is now.

Please try to comprehend what other people are saying before arguing with them!
Epic  Post #: 20
8/6/2013 13:38:10   
Segawoman
Member

quote:

Did I ever say there was a deadline?


Pretty much when you wrote that you think Tran's statement says it all.

quote:

Please try to comprehend what other people are saying before arguing with them!


Like when you try to counterpoint my opposition in Nexus' thread? Of course.




< Message edited by Segawoman -- 8/6/2013 13:42:10 >

_____________________________

My computer beat me on checkers, but I beat it at kickboxing!
Epic  Post #: 21
8/6/2013 13:47:17   
Mother1
Member

@ segawoman

If balance is decided by the whin of every player then it would be impossible for balance since everyone won't agree. Look at the balance section. Most are filled with suggestions that would nerf builds they have trouble with when in fact it could be their natural counter.

Then there are others who think balance is when you build can pretty much counter every thing thrown at it easily which is funny because the builds that a lot of people complain about are in fact those kind of builds.

I agree there is no deadline for balance, however at the same time though unless everyone is happy (which we know won't ever happen) Subjective balance won't ever work.
Epic  Post #: 22
8/6/2013 13:51:30   
Segawoman
Member

quote:

If balance is decided by the whin of every player then it would be impossible


Obviously, human intelligence would have to evolve.

_____________________________

My computer beat me on checkers, but I beat it at kickboxing!
Epic  Post #: 23
8/6/2013 14:16:00   
Predator9657
Member

quote:

Pretty much when you wrote that you think Tran's statement says it all.


Nope. I explained in an earlier post why his statement doesn't imply there is a deadline. It would help if you didn't ignore the explanation.

quote:

Like when you try to counterpoint my opposition in Nexus' thread? Of course.


Last I checked, you were the one arguing with flawed logic and self-contradictions. And your recent posts there seem to point out that the whole reason you are opposing a reasonable suggestion is because of a misunderstanding on your behalf.
Epic  Post #: 24
8/6/2013 15:32:33   
Ranloth
Banned


 Geez, I didn't think my statement/opinion would cause this. <.<

What I've meant was, if the community (players) will have the majority vote when it comes to balancing stuff, no one will ever be happy and someone will request a nerf (or buff) due to bias or not being able to counter the build with their own build.
By making it objective, the community would have a very little say but would still be listened to since not everything can be seen on the Dev Servers, as opposed to Public Servers which we, the players, can test more thoroughly - in this very case, we would have our own say but this would not be the reason to nerf/buff something unless it was a necessity or you've had a very good argument backed up with sufficient amount of data.

You can disagree with it but it isn't right nor wrong, so let's just respect one's opinion and disagree (or agree) if you choose to. Neither of us is wrong nor right, hence why it's an opinion. Also, the topic is quite good to discuss as well so why not?
AQ Epic  Post #: 25
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