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Static grenades issue and solution.

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11/22/2013 7:26:23   
Remorse
Member

What is the main issue with the skill?

In my opinion the main issue is that through this skill BHs are now basically immune to energy drain skills.

How?

If you drain a BH, static grenade makes it so the only thing that happens is you lose around 40 energy and they lose only around 20.
Say you drain them for 40 energy, then they drain you for 40 back plus gain 20 meaning in that single turn you wasted they are better off by 20 energy.


This has made them immune to energy drains in the seance draining them is pointless and extremely stupid. And is why it should be given as cost!!

My idea is is in two forms, preferring the first.

Idea 1: Give it a high energy cost say 25 energy for the maxed skill, but then to provide the BH with a regain like the change was intended to do make the grenade return 100% of the energy drained rather then 50%.

Effect: BHs receive around the same amount of net energy (if they spend 25 then receive 45 through draining 45 then they gain 20 like the average now) however the skill now has a cost meaning if you wanted to drain the BHs you can now do so and use this as an effective strategy and counter porviding you make sure the BH does not have enough energy to use static otherwise you will be in trouble.


Idea 2: Give the static grenade a HP cost maybe 1-10 dpeneding on the level of the grenade.

Effect: You could possibly use energy drains to counter BHs as they have to consider the HP cost.





Overall the main problem now is that for BH being drained in anyway or if you're a mage and you use battery, then using static grenade is almost a brainless and obvious decision however if it had a cost in some form it should set it straight.




What do you guys think,

Remorse Less.




< Message edited by Remorse -- 11/22/2013 7:28:19 >
Epic  Post #: 1
11/22/2013 7:32:33   
DarkDevil
Member

battery is a buffed version of retour , since regaining had evolved its obvious to draining to evolve too.

i would only agree if battery had the same energy/hp cost otherwise it will just be a disadvantage for bountys , and no mark of blood doesn't make up for that.

also to add that's a turn wasted so no , on the first one cus regaining double energy used isn't how it work , what if the enemy didn't have 45 energy , it's just not usefull for a balance.

also for it to have an energy cost will increase its scaling per point so its no longer 15 from 1 to 10 but would rather be 25-30 since the cost will increase too.


in end it doesn't look very feastable.

< Message edited by DarkDevil -- 11/22/2013 7:38:12 >
AQ Epic  Post #: 2
11/22/2013 7:36:07   
Remorse
Member

^ in my first idea

Energy regain is around the same as it is now in fact the only thing that changed with my first idea in the end result is that they can't use it if they don't have energy.

The amount they receive and drain is around the same as it is now.


And as for it being a disadvantage to BHs then you are clearly mistaking because currently they are at a massive advantage, I know this because I am one.


This is coming from a BH who knows I am OP.

< Message edited by Remorse -- 11/22/2013 8:04:15 >
Epic  Post #: 3
11/22/2013 7:43:38   
DarkDevil
Member

no. its not OP its just finally after 4 years bountys finally have a good way to regain hp so its rather a shock.

disadvantages are the waste of 10 points and need of enemy to have energy.

in a fight between a bounty and a merc or a bm when they are both out of energy then they are both out of energy.

quote:

in the end result is that they can't use it if they don't have energy energy.


this should also imply to all energy draining/regaining skills before it applys here , which ends with battery and static charge

edit : the face means it sounds rediclious that these require energy to gain energy.

in end it draining skills do require energy to regain energy but because they are drainers so they don't require our energy but the enemy's energy.

i do agree the amount drained is big but the amount retaurned is very small but this doesn't make it OP it makes it unbalanced.

< Message edited by DarkDevil -- 11/22/2013 7:51:06 >
AQ Epic  Post #: 4
11/22/2013 7:54:54   
kaierti1
Banned


 static grenade and bh will be lowered on this update but where is update i dont know. left 7-9 hours to update and patch is not written yet

my suggestions:

1. 20 or 25 energy steal. back 100%. cooldown 4. improve with none

2. 30 or 35 energy steal. back 50%. cooldown 4. improve with none

3. improve with support instead of technology. back 50%. cooldown 4.

4. improve with technology. back 50%. but energy gain lowered -12 or -15. cooldown 4 (as decreased energy gain of energy backup)

I. but not only bounty hunter. there is need increase energy parasite of blood mages. or stats required change to dex tech or none. (instead of support)

II. need decrease tech mages they are again strong. last week increased assimilitation steal and now is 18-20 and 50% back but steal enhanced.

III. need tct mercenary's poison grenade change to 2 cooldown from 1.

IV. and left mercenary. need think something to be more stronger. they are weak. but not ch. ch is good now

< Message edited by kaierti1 -- 11/22/2013 7:57:04 >
Post #: 5
11/22/2013 8:03:58   
DarkDevil
Member

1. it breaks its primmary purpose of destroying enemy plans.
2. in this case it will not be on par with other draining skills only needing 3 turns cd and gains more energy back.
3. this will actually make support bhs the most OP build out there.
4. umm why ? the energy gain is already very low as -12. , that's not even good for a core use and cd thing is in point 2.

i guess we have discussed a point about whinning without giving reasons or evedice to support your content and stubborneds before.

and i don't guess we are discusding anything in what you said out here so don't go off-topic.

< Message edited by DarkDevil -- 11/22/2013 8:06:21 >
AQ Epic  Post #: 6
11/22/2013 8:05:58   
Remorse
Member

All energy drains should have a cost is some way or form.


And I think they should add them to them all over time.

But for now starting with the extremely unbalanced static grenade is a start.
Epic  Post #: 7
11/22/2013 8:10:20   
DarkDevil
Member

starting with something and adding something to it first in the hope of others following will only place it at an imbalance , if anything is to happen it should all happen once , not one by one.

i am not protecting bountys as i am one of them , but placing them at a disadvantage "untill others follow" is unfair.
AQ Epic  Post #: 8
11/22/2013 8:13:13   
kaierti1
Banned


 DarkDevil,
what about 3. bounty hunters have about 45-60 support. and tech 90-110. and they can steal 44-46 energy (often). it is 70-75% of our energy and it is so many. and plus also many bh players have 24-28 support 5-6 or 6-8 damage and high str, high tech & dex and as i said ed not want such build players. http://image.geotorrents.com/images/02608633913942226065.png so 3rd variant is good too. improve with change to support instead of technology. 50% back and 4 cooldown. because if not we getting such bounty hunters see on pic and it is impossible

< Message edited by kaierti1 -- 11/22/2013 8:15:46 >
Post #: 9
11/22/2013 8:16:26   
Remorse
Member

@dark devil,
Its not a disadvantage because if you look at power alone static grenade is clearly ahead.



So it will be more like starting with a strong static grenade to make it average with other energy drian / regains.


Then give the others a cost and adjust as they go along.


They could do it all togther but it would take unnecessarily long when you consider how long it usually takes the balance changes to happen.

Or you could do this change now and fix another isue at the same time which is a too strong static grenade.



PLEASE do not tell me that static grenade is not stronger then the others, if that is your opinion fine, but please don't bring it up to me as I do not wish to argue a stalemate of opinions.

Epic  Post #: 10
11/22/2013 8:21:29   
DarkDevil
Member

@kaierti1 i have already stated why it should stay as 3 cd in point 2.

the point isn't about scaling to support balance or nerf , the point is in support itself .

support currently handles 4 skills and adding another to them now it does carry nearly half of the skills , this will cause the support being "too much" for a bounty than others which will lead to support bountys being on top of the build chain, also tech bountys will go down to the bottom with only poison which needs wristblades and smoke so sword bountys will only rely on smoke as only skill !!!!!!

@Remorse sorry for going off-topic.
i am not against it having a cost but this should imply to all which will look rediclious on some skills otherwise it will only place it at a disadvantage

it is not stronger than others , it is the way it is abused with tech that makes it stronger as it has greater difference upon builds than others.

example :
20 str merc with max static smash will have at least 27drain due to the weapon giving +34 which has 5 dmg added due to 20 str.
same with 100 str will only go up to 40 because he only got only 20 more dmg

when compared to a bounty with 20 tech will have 29 drain at max
while same with 100 tech will have 48 drain.

it gets higher but is not stronger it's just more abused.
to fix that i have made a suggestion here

< Message edited by DarkDevil -- 11/22/2013 8:42:41 >
AQ Epic  Post #: 11
11/22/2013 11:27:27   
Remorse
Member

^ I like those ideas though I still think the best solution is giving every energy drain skill a cost.


Not having a cost is silly as it makes them to hard to be countered.


Once every skill has a cost then maybe the figures can be balanced out.


Epic  Post #: 12
11/22/2013 12:39:05   
Predator9657
Member

quote:

Not having a cost is silly as it makes them to hard to be countered.

Once every skill has a cost then maybe the figures can be balanced out.


That would mean no more skills can be used when EP runs out in a match; which would be really silly.
Epic  Post #: 13
11/22/2013 12:48:17   
Remorse
Member

^ Well it seemed to work fine from beta to omega,

Also the cost doesn't have to be energy.


They could add hp or maybe even rage costs to these skills.


The point is they need something.
Epic  Post #: 14
11/22/2013 13:40:38   
DarkDevil
Member

any skill that doesn't deal damage has already a,rage cost which is you lose a turn's rage doing it.
with exception of static charge that doesn't gain rage but deals damage.

< Message edited by DarkDevil -- 11/22/2013 13:41:24 >
AQ Epic  Post #: 15
11/22/2013 22:11:24   
Remorse
Member

^ That is true, never the less that is not enough for the skills to be directly countered.

Something needs to end the stalemate of energy drains as in, you can't drain anyone without getting drained back yourself and therefore shouldn't drain them in the first place.


Energy drains need to be a viable counter for builds, but if it is simply a stalemate because they have no cost then balance is harmed in the form of less counters.
Epic  Post #: 16
11/22/2013 22:22:04   
Mother1
Member

@ Remorse

A stalemale in causes means both sides are equal. If you put too much on the drawback side then it won't be balanced either. I could bring up examples but I won't because I don't want to throw this topic off topic.
Epic  Post #: 17
11/22/2013 22:38:00   
Remorse
Member

^ The whole point of turn based strategy games, is to make strategic decisions that puts you ahead of the opponent.

Their is a difference between balance and an effective strategies.


Take chess for instance if you have a stale mate you end the game because continuing to play would be pointless.

We need to stop baby feeding players and make the game-play challenging, rewarding and have impacting decisions and mistakes.

< Message edited by Remorse -- 11/22/2013 22:41:38 >
Epic  Post #: 18
11/23/2013 3:36:04   
DarkDevil
Member

right now the counter for energy steal is energy steal , if you drain he will just drain it back so it will be pointless.

off topic a lil bit:
it is now on strategic decesions unless you only spam smoke and mark of blood and static grenade.

personally i only use it to counter battery with a dex build (you don't see much dex bountys around).
AQ Epic  Post #: 19
11/23/2013 20:26:23   
Combatoid
Member

Personally, I feel that the skill can be re-balanced by adding an increased cooldown(4 opposed to 3) or a slight debuff causing it to take around 20-40% opposed to 50%.
AQW Epic  Post #: 20
11/23/2013 21:01:00   
GearzHeadz
Member

If you didn't think that the assimilation before the update wasn't OP or the EMP grenade isn't OP, then you're just complaining. EMP grenade drains a lot more than the static grenade and the former assimilation could return as much energy as static grenade.
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 21
11/23/2013 23:18:37   
Remorse
Member

^ EMP has a cost and can be countered it also doesn't drain lot more, it is basically the same except one is free and give you back 50%

And I think assimilation is OP, when considering before its major buff when it drained only small amount say 1-10 I thought it was still extremely usefull one of the most useful skills in the game, the major buff was pointless.


Please try to understand the only problem I have with static grenade and all free costing drains for that matter is that they can't really be countered and therefore you can't drain them to counter them or they will simply do it back making the strategy pointless.



Back when you could energy drain a focus BH for example it meant, if you calculated correctly, that they would not have enough energy to EMP you back making it effective counter to the build.

Wanna know why tech BHs are so strong now? they are lacking in counter builds why? because they are basically immune to energy drains now in the seance it is hardly ever useful to drain them since they can always drain you back with not cost or thought.

< Message edited by Remorse -- 11/23/2013 23:20:37 >
Epic  Post #: 22
11/24/2013 0:11:06   
DarkDevil
Member

first points first , emp isn't stronger as base but scales higher per point due to energy cost so while static has a rough max of 50 , emp can reach 60-65 energy.

also the energy cost is nearly the same with what static charge gives so the class already have a way to get energy back , if you will separate it then it would be stronger for bountys.

assim got a buff because it needs to take more , all the other classes can easily destroy 40+ energy while this one destroys 20 and gains 10 and deals damage.

they are countered by another drain or by simply not having energy , it is and static smash are counters for battery , which is why you can see evergy mage complaining.

no , back we could both emp each other since we had 60 and drained 40 and both left with less than 10 energy and by the way bountys are made 10 energy is only usefull for a lvl 1 cheapshot.

the last problem also applies to all classes , if an enemy knows what he is doing (which most don't) will use assim to counter the regain and battery to regain the harm , same goes for tlm and ch except they have to regain before draining.
mercs have the same tool as bounty so it can be simplest countered.

lats note , combatoid , not sure what to reply with , do you even play the game with us ? its drain % should be increased , bountys increaes it because the regain is too low so to make it good enougg it has to ddrain at least 45 energy , if the energy regain is incrased and drain drain decreased then it will be less spamed , yet it will remain a counter to battery and mages as full.

< Message edited by DarkDevil -- 11/24/2013 0:32:36 >
AQ Epic  Post #: 23
11/24/2013 0:34:36   
Remorse
Member

quote:

back we could both emp each other since we had 60 and drained 40 and both left with less than 10 energy and by the way bountys are made 10 energy is only usefull for a lvl 1 cheapshot.



I am talking about the strategy when you drain them to stop you draining you back. If both sides can still drain then their is pretty much no point doing it in the first place usually, as you will be on almost equal grounds.


However if you get them to smoke/heal/shield lowering their energy to say below 50 then you drained them, then they could not drain you back because they didn't have the energy requirements to use EMP.



This as an effective strategy which has been compromised by all the 0 cost energy drains and it is sort of a shame.
because their is not as much effort in thinking in games anymore which is a shame because being challenged strategically was the only real fun I ever had in this game.
Epic  Post #: 24
11/24/2013 2:14:35   
CivilAE
Member

The sound but terrible resolve would be to make EMP and all other drainers cost nothing as well. Which would mean matches would become 1st turn/luck oriented more than ever because no one would be able to use skill cores or skills they've invested in because of cost struggle between energy control

Maybe it could work, who knows, I don't but the advantage is still there since EMP has a cost and the others don't.

Edit: Hm, maybe EMP could have HP cost? This wouldn't necessarily make the move free but it wouldn't kill the fight for the CyberHunter against battery since you wouldn't be killing a turn and all your energy trying to match backup with no damage or rage gain. This also compensates for the opponent missing their turn to deal damage to regain the energy from battery.

Cyber's have a tank set as is so it wouldn't be a bad idea, it'd be another skill that works with HP and completely unique at that.

< Message edited by CivilAE -- 11/24/2013 2:25:55 >
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 25
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