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Overall-OP class balance fix.

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1/15/2014 21:11:47   
toopygoo
Member

a new item implication to overcome those really abused classes:

the item would be a cape, and mainly for appearance purposes. I would have suggested implying this on bikes, and have 1 permanent, and free bike, but i also acknowledged they will never ever imply something like that.

So basically, points are unlocked starting at level 10 and you get 1 per level until level 40, so by level 40, you have a total of 30 points to distribute.
the item (for the sake of consistency, i will refer top it as your cape) has 6 slots: 1 for each class, to a total maximum of 20 points per a single class.

what these points would do is increase numerous aspects of challenge if you opponent belongs to a certain class: damage taken, increased heal cost, energy regain efficiency, and initial rage and rage gain

it decreases the damage dealt to you by X class, by 1 point of damage, for each point invested in that class
it increases the heal heal cost by 50% of the points invested in that class (rounded up at 1 point, but down after that)
decreases energy regain by 66.6% of points invested in that class (rounded up at 1 point, but down after that)
it increases your rage by 10% of the points invested in that class
it increases rage gain by 5% of points invested in that class

This overrides damage minimums set by the system: if someone were to deal 30 damage to you, and you have a 5 point advantage to their class, they deal only 25

If your opponent has any points in your class, then the number of points you have against them effectively cancels out, so as not to aid heal looping in any way.
For example

i am a level 35 merc playing a 40 tech mage. I have 20 points invested in tech mage, maxing out my protection and advantage against them.
the tech mage, as they are currently "most OP" (common opinion, not mine) wants to be balanced out and has 5 points against me.
thus, the system acts as if i have 15 points invest into tech mage's class
Whenever the mage deals damage against me, he will deal 15 points less then he otherwise would.
if he has a level 1 heal, it would cost him 177 energy to cast the level 1 heal
If he were to use battery, then instead of a max value of 362 energy regained, he would regain 352 instead
the merc would start with 1.5 rage points, and gain rage at his standard rate + an additional 3.5%

This wouldnt affect any luck based stats
This wouldnt affect any stats already in the game, except give a slight boost to support, in the sense that it can also increase rage gain

effectively, this would allow the player base to collectively nerf an entire class when they feel it is OP, instead of waiting for dev intervention. If perfect balance is ever reached, then players are most welcome to jsut set all stats to 5 (at level 40) and so the points would all cancel out, and the entire system would no longer be necessary.

any thoughts?
AQW Epic  Post #: 1
1/15/2014 21:45:29   
Altador987
Member

too one-sided... seeing as balance hasn't really been resolved certain classes would just get the blunt end with this and i shouldn't take a penalty just for being a certain class
AQW Epic  Post #: 2
1/16/2014 21:01:52   
toopygoo
Member

it would be self adjusting... even if you're not using the single OP class, with time, the number of people using that class or that build would diminish and the whole point of this is to encourage people to use a variety of builds and classes so no single class is teamed on by everyone else.

if everyone uses the bounty class, then all other classes would set the bounty counter to 20, effectively massively nerfing the bounty class, convincing those who are only after fast wins to switch to a different class as they will be much less successful.


its actually a really simple concept i'm surprised i have seen suggested yet.
AQW Epic  Post #: 3
1/16/2014 21:03:45   
Altador987
Member

yes but what about those who enjoy the c;ass and aren't using an abusive build, who don't wanna change their class... also i see your hope but all i can really imagine is encouraged class hopping
AQW Epic  Post #: 4
1/16/2014 21:08:37   
Remorse
Member

Very interesting concept.... and I like it :)

Perhaps figures and advanatges could be different but the concept I like :)
Epic  Post #: 5
1/16/2014 21:09:12   
toopygoo
Member

well apart from mother1 an trans, eddy 7, and dabombmaster, i havent seen anyone stick with a single class, with varium, for multiple phases. People generally are just class hopping already as it is. this would discourage new people from jumping onto the bandwagon, and encourage people to find more counters to OP builds, rather than join them.
AQW Epic  Post #: 6
1/16/2014 21:39:23   
Altador987
Member

i see... well i guess i just have to agree to disagree as i really don't feel that's an answer (also i've never class switched other than when the new classes first came out in which i had to in order to be a cy)
AQW Epic  Post #: 7
1/16/2014 21:45:12   
toopygoo
Member

@ altador987

i guarantee if you had no shortage of varium, like some of these other people, you would be hopping too simply cause you can. i know i did for a while. now i have new goals, but just casue i know i have the money, sometimes i will try out playing as a merc or mage again, before returning to my bounty (it was my second char ever, but the first i reached level 30, and learned the game.


@ remorse.

Thanks :D the vlaues i admit were a little rushed, i thought it up while away from the comp, and could use some tweaking, which i would be open to work on with other people :)
AQW Epic  Post #: 8
1/16/2014 22:06:11   
Altador987
Member

i dont have a shortage of varium xD what nonsense i have no want to if i want to try a new class i'll just make a new on fresh... which i have... 5 times... actually that mindset is exactly why i don't support this idea because it's not really that you've only seen a few people stay you just assume everyone will change or "want to" you don't really care about those who don't intend to change their class... i have 3 bounties, a tech mage, a merc, and a cyber hunter all made before omega was even thought of and while 2 of the bounties haven't been used since stats were preset on weapons i like switching between my alts just for the fun and diversity, with balance the way it is most people would most likely implement your idea on tech mages and bounty hunters and that would then mean i'd have to resort to the other classes simply to enjoy the build i worked on... if all classes were balanced then maybe sure i'd say go for it as then people would try for diversity however all this really is is a band aid quick fix for a much larger problem
AQW Epic  Post #: 9
1/16/2014 22:36:43   
toopygoo
Member

i never claimed to know everyone who did stay in a class because they liked it, but you'd be surprised how many i have met who claim to like a certain class since forver, but they change this opinion every few months... these 4 were some for the trust to the class i know them for. Im not quite sure what that description in the middle had to do with this solution...
quote:

if all classes were balanced then maybe sure i'd say go for it as then people would try for diversity however all this really is is a band aid quick fix for a much larger problem


I hope you realize how this makes it seem like you didn't even read the title of the suggestion. If perfect balance would already be achieved, then we wouldn't need this system because its only function would be a mere 0.75 points of rage extra in each battle. The whole purpose is to weaken an overall class, so people dont go class hopping as you suggest to simply get into the OP builds. As soon as something like that would happen, all the non-hoppers would be able to merely change their "capes" stats and nerf the new class to some degree, rendering them a lot weaker than otherwise would be....

The whole premise is: the more people using the same class, the easier that class is to counter, because you just invest more points into that class to nerf them more, and you have less to worry about other classes because other players changed to the class you are currently stronger against, while they are weakened by all other classes evenly.


im not sure you are actually understanding what i suggest. let me know if you want me to clarify with better examples.
AQW Epic  Post #: 10
1/16/2014 22:48:52   
Altador987
Member

quote:

The whole purpose is to weaken an overall class

no i completely understand you're not trying to balance the classes you're trying to nerf one or another which isn't fixing anything i've read the entirety of your post which is why i completely disagree with the suggestion nerfing a class or weakening a class doesn't bring balance at all if a class has bad synergy or skills regardless of what cape you give the player they're still stuck with that bad synergy or skillset... i'll give you an example:

say as a tact merc i decide to put my cape against bhs and tms... so i start winning more (possibly as they could have their cape on tact merc) then what do i do for the rest of the classes... also if an OP class is really that Opd wouldn't it just spread the cape around for each class and still win...

it would seem you're not looking at any possible risks (or just flat out ignoring them) as you've only restated what your suggestion would do but you haven't made an argument as to how exactly it would be void of any minor or major risks that make said suggestion redundant

also the middle description was due to your "i guarantee if you had no shortage of varium" comment in case you wanted to question that theory further

AQW Epic  Post #: 11
1/17/2014 4:05:31   
Elite Tuga
Member

I agree and like this concept Toopygoo, because I am too fed up of seeing extravagant spending players hopping to the overpowered classes every so often, just to maintain superior against most.

This counter idea against overpowered/strong classes would help support a struggling/underdog class in battle to balance as much possible between the strong & the weak. The only downside to this whole idea is that the OP class could also take advantage of this strategic counter against the next most threatened class making the OP class always 1 step ahead. Thus, in my opinion for this concept to fit in really well in our game we'd need classes like example; TM & BH to be nerf'd (re-tweaked) first and foremost to reduce the most popular/strong classes that are thrashing & make them up-to par as much possible to the rest. This concept could then be brought into game to focus just in benefiting those who'd like to try new unique/fun builds w/e the class to counter the classes/builds that they would feel they'd be struggling or in-threat against.

Problem is that Dev's would most unlikely not approve of this idea simply because it would make a significant amount of people not invest as much on one of the greatest money maker features in-game ''class change.'' Players would be more often class settled at-least for longer periods of time, resulting in game's gross reducing somewhat in this particular perspective.

Goodluck tho, Toopygoo!
Epic  Post #: 12
1/17/2014 19:33:11   
toopygoo
Member

@ altador987

quote:

i'll give you an example:

say as a tact merc i decide to put my cape against bhs and tms... so i start winning more (possibly as they could have their cape on tact merc) then what do i do for the rest of the classes... also if an OP class is really that Opd wouldn't it just spread the cape around for each class and still win...


so this means you didn't fully understand :P

look at it like this. assume you are tact merc like in your suggestion. you Nerf mages and BH's cause you feel they are beating you uncontrollably. Why would BH and tact merc find you as the biggest threat if you are not OP? better yet, if you have no skill synergy, then why would they invest any points into countering your class if you were not even a challenge to them? They may invest a few points into your class, but then they would have to spread it around because all other classes (if they are actually OP) would put 20 points on their class as well. if they simply spread the points on the cape around like you suggest, then the best they can hope for is to reduce some of the advantage others gain, but not really counter said cape. thus they are still at the greatest disadvantage.

also as you mention, if it REALLY is that OP, then it would be clear, even to devs that there is a SERIOUS balance issue in the game, not just complaining players, as then regardless of level difference, cape difference and any other differences, the class would still have to be winning. Also, keep in mind that there are 3 other unmentioned classes would they then leave themselves rather open to if they are simply countering tact merc... that means they lower their damage against cypers (with the big damage/poison combo), increase their heals costs, and have less energy returned as well as the rage disadvantage.

That is the purpose of the all of the little advatanges instead of 1 big thing: the greater the difference, the better off you are, thus you must try to counter everyone equally if everyone is teaming up on you.

and in reasponse to your "no shortage of varium" question of my theory: i never said you are on a shortage of varium, however i am talking about players who will buy 60K monthly if not more frequently, just to get ALL of the new gear, spend hundreds of dollars on arcade tokens, and and have purschased all friend slot/inventory upgrades... The people who are truly at the pinnacle of spending in this game. and as of now, that is basically 1/8 of the playerbase (from people i know and their factions etc..) who are "short" or varium, but have a sever excess...


@ Elite Tuga

Point taken about the counter to the next strongest class, but then that does leave them almost wide open to 5 other classes and would lose more to them, rather than distributing equally, so there is that opposite.

i can see what you mean about that, but sadly that is what we are trying to prevent. they might have to makea decision between keeping an actiave player base, or keeping revenues as high as they from 1 certain feature...
AQW Epic  Post #: 13
1/18/2014 1:34:31   
Altador987
Member

quote:

i never said you are on a shortage of varium, however i am talking about players who will buy 60K monthly if not more frequently

that may be what you might've meant but
quote:

i guarantee if you had no shortage of varium, like some of these other people, you would be hopping too simply cause you can

that's what you said

also my point is basically this is a fixit it's like having a house with a flimsy support and instead of getting completely new support to fix all possible problems you simply fix the beams that are the most obvious which works for a while until other beams (a.k.a balance issues) arise and eventually the cycle just continues rather than moving forward

but in any case i won't argue any further as we seem to differ in our opinions of balance
AQW Epic  Post #: 14
1/18/2014 13:11:16   
toopygoo
Member

ok, how about this: i admit i was wrong about what i said about you hopping if you no shortage of varium. it was a false assumption.


however it is not the focus of the thread to begin with.

Im not sure what you base your argument of "Bandaid" solution? The whole purpose is weakening a single class, by the players will, rather than making minor changes every week which shift the Balance completely and leave the players with little to no powers over controlling rising builds and build copying?


This is the opposite of what i know to be a bandaid fix: its long term/permanent and doesnt include all players under the same umbrella, but rather encourages a deviation between builds and classes. Instead of the agility implication, which encouraged everyone to use low health builds, this encourages everyone to be diverse because as soon as people copy each other, the player base can nerf them (to a limited extent)
AQW Epic  Post #: 15
1/18/2014 14:06:25   
Drianx
Member

As much as I hate people jumping to the OPed class, I would still not encourage implementing more "WIN" buttons.
AQW Epic  Post #: 16
1/18/2014 14:12:14   
toopygoo
Member

can you elaborate please? i not sure how you interpreted this as a "win" butto...
AQW Epic  Post #: 17
1/18/2014 14:25:07   
Drianx
Member

Because you choose to have an advantage - which sometimes might be overwhelming - over a class of your choice.
It sounds vengeful, but not strategic.
Just my opinion.
AQW Epic  Post #: 18
1/18/2014 14:28:41   
toopygoo
Member

ok, well to be on the same page, ill explain why using a vengeful tactic wouldnt work:


lets say i am level 40, highest level with the most possible points, and i hate the classes tech mage, and BH, casue theyre "OP" right now.
i caninvest only 15/15 in each of these classes at most, which leads my WIDE OPEN to debuffs from all other classes right now. i am exposing a very weak underside to everyone else by acting on a vengeance premises.

AQW Epic  Post #: 19
1/18/2014 15:38:38   
Altador987
Member

the assumption would be that the only reason you hate said classes is those classes are the only ones you and every other player would be struggling with because said class is OP so most likely both you and other classes would place the debuffs on the same classes and while other classes COULD put a debuff on you they most likely wouldn't assuming you're not the OP class which would mean it's meant to give you the most possible wins with no real risks involved
AQW Epic  Post #: 20
1/18/2014 15:51:48   
toopygoo
Member

but you cant pick who you fight. you can set it to Tech mage, but you might face every single other class 100 times before fighting a tech mage again :/ you cant pick who you fight, and thus it cannot guarantee wins. only gives you a little advantage in some other aspects than synergy and abilites.
AQW Epic  Post #: 21
1/18/2014 17:17:38   
Altador987
Member

it's been agreed the population is that of mostly tech mages and bhs i can't even remember when the last time i fought a cyber hunter was nor a bm or even a tact merc
AQW Epic  Post #: 22
1/18/2014 17:37:56   
toopygoo
Member

i have neither seen or heard of this "agreement" before...

although i do admit i see a lot of tech's, 90% of them, are the same 15 people :/ doesnt mean there are that many more of them.. i just play them frequently. whereas the few bh i see... well i play them at most 3 times per day each... :/
AQW Epic  Post #: 23
1/18/2014 17:53:10   
Mother1
Member

@ toopygoo

it wouldn't be so bad if we got different players. However that is another thing, I almost always end up getting the same players over and over again. Sometimes 5-6 times within an hour due to their being very few people within my range group. Then when I can't get those players I end up waiting 1-3 minutes before I get another fight. This includes 1 vs 1.

Epic  Post #: 24
1/18/2014 17:53:58   
Altador987
Member

the complaints on this forum of only seeing said classes due to class-hopping, the point still remains thagetting more winst said risk would be very small and is simply a way of winning easier than balancing out the system
AQW Epic  Post #: 25
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