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3/21/2015 13:39:53   
Emperor_Blitz
Member

Assimilation should be allowed to be used with a sword, tm and mercs are the only classes restricted to having to use mauls and staffs giving them 2 less stats.
Epic  Post #: 1
3/21/2015 14:14:20   
Lord Machaar
Member

Mercenaries, Tech mages & Tactical mercenaries*
Which 3 classes. I see that assimilation is perfectly fine. Mercenaries are the underdog here, not being able to drain or regain energy without their special weapon. Tech mages has assimilation that drains/regains at the same time, while battery back up regains a huge amount of energy.

As for other classes Blood mages, Cyber hunters and bounty hunters, eventhough they can drain and regain energy with or without their special a weapon, it might seem OP but battery back is OP too.

The weaker part here is Mercenary class, but the last patchnote gave a little buff to mercenaries.

< Message edited by Lord Machaar -- 3/21/2015 14:15:37 >
MQ Epic  Post #: 2
3/21/2015 15:30:39   
Emperor_Blitz
Member

Im not sure if you can read or not mercs and tm = tech mages mercs= tact merc and merc.

battery is far from op parasite emp everything counters battery.

Please don’t double post ~Battle Elf


< Message edited by Battle Elf -- 3/21/2015 16:52:04 >
Epic  Post #: 3
3/21/2015 16:11:15   
Lord Machaar
Member

Mercenarie is a class.
Tactical mercenarie is a class.
Merc = Mercenaries.
TLM= Tactical mercenaries.

That's first.
Second, if you make assimilation used with sword also, mercenaries should be able to use static smasher with maul, and TLMs also, because we find 2 groups of classes regarding energy draining - regaining.

1st Group: Consisted of classes that have 1 skill dedicated to energy draining and 1 skill dedicated to energy regaining.
- TLMs:
-Battery and Atom smasher
-Battery can be used with sword, atom smasher no.
-Cons: Maul needed to drain energy, energy needed to use atom smasher. Pros: Battery brings hell of energy.
- TMs:
-Battery and assimilation.
-Battery can be used with sword, assimilation no.
-Cons: Staff needed to drain energy. Pros: Battery brings hell of energy, assimilation needs no energy to be used.
- Cyber Hunters:
- Static charge and EMP grenade
-Both skills can be used with sword.
-Cons: Poor energy regain and EMP grenade is useless sometimes since it requires energy unlike TLMs and TMs . Pros: Can be used with Sword.

2nd Group: Consisted of classes that have 1 skill combining both things.
- BH:
-Static grenade.
-Skill can be used with sword.
-Cons: Energy regained is relatively low compared to other classes, useless when the energy of enemy is at 0. Pros: Can be used with sword.
- BM:
-Parasite.
-Skill can be used with sword.
-Cons: Useless when enemy has 0 energy. Pros: Can be used with sword and can deal damage.
- Merc:
-Static smash.
-Skill can't be used with sword.
-Cons: Can't be used with sword, blockable on top of that, useless when the energy of the enemy is at 0. Pros: Nothing to mention.

Even though Merc seems the underdog here regarding energy, the last skill revamping gave mercs many advantages, the lack of energy potentials is covered by the powerful set of skills.
So tech mages are nowhere near the underdog regarding energy draining and regaining, and any buff to them means an adjustement to all other classes.

< Message edited by Lord Machaar -- 3/21/2015 22:01:13 >
MQ Epic  Post #: 4
3/22/2015 1:39:37   
leo07123
Member

Hi,
Only focusing on your suggestion Mr. Emperor_Blitz right now in game Assimilation is already an OP because it grants Tech Mage with Damage, Take energy of enemy and give backs a % of energy to his/her energy pool. So, there is no chance of making Assimilation usable with sword. Apart from that Mercenary’s static smash is also good and if it is made usable with sword than it will totally unbalance the game and these two classes will be OP. And my personal review is that there is no skill in ED expect ASSIMILATION of Tech Mage which give three benefits. So everything is perfect.
Epic  Post #: 5
3/22/2015 7:52:15   
Lord Machaar
Member

Basically Assimilation is like static smasher of Mercenaries and atom smasher of TLMs, and on top of that deals damage, this skill is considered as OP regarding the group of classes that needs their special weapon to use draining energy skill.
so basically assimilation has the following caracteristics:

Assimilation: (Tech mages)
- Steals Energy.
- Gives you back energy.
- 0 Energy required to use.
- Deals damage.


Atom smasher: (TLMs)
- Takes energy.
- Gives back no energy.
- Needs energy to be used.
- Deals no damage.


Static Smasher: (Mercs)
- Takes energy.
- Brings Back energy.
- No energy requierd to be used.

- Deals no damage.


Green: Good Caracteristics. Red: Bad Caracteristics.
So as I can see assimilation is nowhere near the underdog here.

As for the other group that doesn't need special weapon to use drainnig energy skill: Blood mages, Bounty hunters and Cyber hunters, it's a whole different story, if you would like to know more about it, let me know.

< Message edited by Lord Machaar -- 3/22/2015 10:30:24 >
MQ Epic  Post #: 6
3/23/2015 21:23:55   
Thylek Shran
Member

quote:

Assimilation should be allowed to be used with a sword, tm and mercs are the only classes restricted to having to use mauls and staffs giving them 2 less stats.

I agree with you and I suggested this also long ago. TMs generally suffer from restricted skills that
are not compatible with swords. Swords also have a damage bonus and not only more stats.
DF Epic  Post #: 7
3/24/2015 0:22:52   
Mother1
Member

@ Lord machaar

Here is some things you missed on Assimilation

Assimilation

1) Steal energy, however out of all the drainers it steals the least even if you abuse strength due to it needing 10 strength to power it up by one.
2) Gives back energy however like with the steal it gives back the least energy out of the three
3) Deals damage that can trigger your opponent's rage which means that if I want to drain their energy but not give their rage I need to use a core that gives no damage.
4) If I need to drain my opponent but I have rage I have to choose between draining my opponent's energy and wasting my rage or not.

Static smash

1) Gives back the most energy out of all the energy drainers
2) Can be powered up with Blood commander
3) It doesn't trigger your rage if you have full rage, or gives your opponent's rage.

Atom smasher

1) It drains the most energy out of the three drainers that requires a weapon
2) It is 100% successful meaning it doesn't fail
3) It won't give you enemy rage so you can drain their energy without worry
4) IT doesn't use your rage if you have it.
Epic  Post #: 8
3/24/2015 1:49:08   
Thylek Shran
Member

quote:

4) If I need to drain my opponent but I have rage I have to choose between draining my opponent's energy and wasting my rage or not.

This is the biggest drawback of Assimilation as experienced opponents commonly
pump up their energy before the move when the TM has Rage. The chance for a
block mostly is high when using Assimilation (with Rage) and the damage is only 85%
when it connects sucessfully. Its should get affected by Lucky Strike or have its own
connect bonus.

< Message edited by Thylek Shran -- 3/24/2015 1:50:08 >
DF Epic  Post #: 9
3/25/2015 10:35:28   
King Bling
Member

Lord Machaar Can I ask you what buff the mercenary got last update?
Post #: 10
3/25/2015 15:31:07   
Lord Machaar
Member

Just the re-arranging of skill trees in itself is a buff, buffing something doesn't always mean it needs to be buffed directly, which is the case, tactical mercenaries were nerfed, giving another class a chance. If you played the game lately, you will see the appearance of a strenght mercenary build, with "Blood commander" which is frankly pretty OP, and from level 7 to 10 berzerker, this is a whole set of powerful tools to make a powerful strenght build. Everything that mercenaries miss with having no energy stable source like TLMs or TMs have ( or even other classes that don't need to have a special weapon (claws, staff..) to drain energy ) they make it up with a fine number of skills. Looking at the skill tree now

Field medic - Double strike - Hybrid armor.
Blood commander - maul - bunker buster
artillery strike - intimidate - berzerker
surgical strike - arenaline rush - static smash.

@Mother1

The fact why assimilation drains the smallest amount of energy between the three, it's because assimilation first of all is not:
- not blockable. (static smasher blockable)
- doesn't require energy. (atom smasher requires energy)
- there is a constant and reliable source of energy. (not the case for mercenaries)

as for other 2 skills:
atom smasher: requires energy, a lot of energy in fact, which means at certain stage of the battle you won't able to drain energy.
static smasher: blockable, one block will definetly cost you the battle.

The only "con" that I see about assimilation is triggering the rage of the player, but it's totally a negligable con that can be surpassed by a strict strategic plan.
So frankly "Comparing" assimilation to static smash is not right, which means that in first case TM has a reliable and constant source of energy, mercenaries don't, which means logically they should have a powerful draining/gaining energy, still it has a lot of cons...

< Message edited by Lord Machaar -- 3/25/2015 16:21:55 >
MQ Epic  Post #: 11
3/25/2015 18:55:28   
Mother1
Member

@ Lord machaar

Not true. Assimilation always gave the least amount of energy. Also the only reason Assimilation effect always works is because Damage is no longer 100% negated with a block. Before when blocks removed all damage Assimilation like Static smash smash and Atom smasher did nothing with that.

Also if they shouldn't be compared why did you even do it trying to make it seem like the move is OP while leaving out the cons? Or better yet why did you compare the 3 at all?

< Message edited by Mother1 -- 3/25/2015 18:59:24 >
Epic  Post #: 12
3/25/2015 19:16:07   
Lord Machaar
Member

I compared the groups of classes and not skills themselves ( I started with the group of classes that have same caracteristics: TLM, Merc and TM, compared both energy draining and regaining, and how both of them works, then I isolated energy draining skills to make my point more clear, even that comparison is wrong because static smash serves both energy drainng and energy regaining, that's why we should add battery back up when comparing static smash with assimilation, even without doing that, assimilation managed to be a good skill in terms of energy draining/regaining.), because in the end you play with your skill tree and not with that skill only. Skills work together to form a skill tree, which means if X skill of a certain class is weak compared to Y skill of another class (Considering that both skills serve the same purpose, draining or regaining or both or something else), it doesn't mean that X skill should be buffed just for the sake of it, because when we look at the skill tree, we might find that that certain class that has a weak X skill, has on the other hand a better skill A for example better than
To further explain my idea, we know that maul works better with mercenaries and tacitcal mercenaries, which means normally tactical mercenaries should have maul also instead of stun grenade (both serves the purpose of stunning the opponent), this doesn't mean that stun grenade should be buffed or replaced or improved with strenght, because when we look at the big picture which is the skill tree, we see that TLMs have compensation of that for example with frenzy and so on.
This is how balance work, we don't look at only small parts of the picture, but we look at the whole of it, sure assimlation according to you is the underdog between draining skills having same requirements (which is frankly not), but when we look at the other skills in the skill tree of tech mages we see it is compensated with a better skill in other field. In a nutshell, this called variety.

If we are going to go through each skill of each class and compare, for example, taking "stun" skills, some classes have the worst stunning skills in the game, e.g stun grenade for TLMs, compared to maul, it is useless, this doesn't mean necessarily that stun grenade should be buffed, nor replaced, it should remain the same because TLMs make up for that in other skills, and this is the purpose, classes should have "Des points faibles et des points forts", I don't know how to say it in english but here it is in french. Otherwise, if we proceed in the same manner of balancing each skill without looking how it works nor the skill tree in total of the class, it will results in the end of a huge lack variety, because finally, each class will be good at everything, at energy dranining, at energy regaining, at etc... and so on and frankly I think this is not the point, as each class should be good at something.



< Message edited by Lord Machaar -- 3/25/2015 19:31:44 >
MQ Epic  Post #: 13
3/25/2015 20:22:38   
Mother1
Member

@ lord machaar

if anything this topic should be in the balance section of the site rather than suggestions seeing as it is as you pointed out about balance.

But on topic, when balance is involved all points good and bad need to brought up because without looking at all the points as you pointed out stuff can be missed and/or ignored and when changes are made based on missing information that is how problems with balance occur.

Also with Tactical merc your forgot frenzy as well seeing as this move also gives energy to a tactical merc.
Epic  Post #: 14
3/26/2015 11:41:57   
Lord Machaar
Member

quote:

Assimilation should be allowed to be used with a sword, tm and mercs are the only classes restricted to having to use mauls and staffs giving them 2 less stats.




This is what was written in the OP. You think this is developped enough to be considered as a serious suggestion related to balance?
The only reason that was given there was:

quote:

tm and mercs are the only classes restricted to having to use mauls and staffs giving them 2 less stats.


You simply can't look at certain skills individually. Sure "Tms, Mercs, TLMs" are the only classes who need their special weapon to use energy draining skills (draining/regaining for mercs), and that's surely "not balanced" since special weapons give less stats than swords, but it's not as simple as that.

quote:

Also with Tactical merc your forgot frenzy as well seeing as this move also gives energy to a tactical merc.


As I said before, it is impossible to compare skills individually, therefore, if I want to compare two skills, I need to bring the whole arsenal which is the skill tree. Frenzy is a mixed skill, for energy & HP regaining, frenzy is a special case, bringing it up will make us create anothe group of classes who have hp draining and regaining skills and interesect it with energy draining and energy regaining skills and special skills and... and...and...and...and..and...

Frankly what we see now is just tweaks, no one bothers to do this whole process in the ED team going through every detail to come up with something correct, it is really time consuming, one mistake can lead to a chain reaction of mistakes, sadly, and due to the lack of balance updates, ED team never built a database to consult and look at to see where is really the problem if there is, or how to improve the game, they are always lost, the game as you can see is controlled by shallow patchnotes of balance, every patchnote is shallow, no one has the courage to dig deep in this because they know it is a really messy place, it needs a total revamp.



< Message edited by Lord Machaar -- 3/26/2015 12:26:08 >
MQ Epic  Post #: 15
3/27/2015 8:45:18   
The berserker killer
Member

 

I support this. It would be a great asset to the class
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 16
3/27/2015 11:27:06   
King Bling
Member

@Lord Machaar - As of lately or even before, the str mercs were all good, its not because of the recent changes that it got a buff, it was equal before and now as well, it was just that the tlms were dominating that you now say that str merc is op, btw I do not support this idea, seeing that if assimilation turned into sword usage/usable/usability, then all the tms will start using swords and not staff for a single reason just like the bms.
Post #: 17
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