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Strength balance

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4/16/2015 5:12:57   
Darkwing
Member

The main problem of strength builds ever since= a free cost strike that can be used every turn.

How to balance it:


Each time you use strike the damage drops. The strength stat doesn't drop, only the damage from strike.

1 use-Damage drops by 10%
2 use- damage drops by 20%
It stops at 60% and stays that way for the rest of the battle.

Numbers can be adjusted.




Post #: 1
4/16/2015 6:24:25   
Ranloth
Banned


 We are actually looking into this, as well as Strength (stat), so suggestions are more than welcome.
AQ Epic  Post #: 2
4/16/2015 17:35:20   
Thylek Shran
Member

Its not only strenght that can make Strike OPed.
Its also the damage and stat bonus on swords
and strenght related skills like Mark Of Blood
and Blood Commander.

Other strenght related skills like Double Strike,
Bludgeon and Berzerker and strenght related
cores like Meteor/Plasma Shower are mostly
OPed too when being used by strenght builds
as their damage bonus is percentual.
DF Epic  Post #: 3
4/16/2015 18:40:02   
dfo99
Member
 

 str build is not currently op. also they are very easy if you use the katherax bot.
Post #: 4
4/17/2015 1:58:11   
a non varium player
Member
 

 some of my suggestion

-decrease primary base damage by 60-100

- constant decline in primary damage every time smone uses strike, but has a workaround against it like gun, mark, bludgeon, gun, core and so on... that has the same effect but does not actually uses strike ( one of the main reason why str is abused)

-stop making things that promotes str abuses like- hey mark isnt enough for you?then we got yeti hulk for you that can give more hp back than mark and can completely change the outcome at the last moment. not enough? then we give you frozen fury gun, 1 time damage on par with bludgeon with decent str. still not enough? want something that can be used again? look no further, we give you kartherax reaper, % based more damage per turn, can be used again.

- reduce hp back from mark (another reason why str is favourable) and reduce its usage to 3 turns not four.

-fix rage gain - if total of X damage is about to de done in a turn and B amount is absorbed by defense and only A mount goes through then rage gain by attacker = R*B/X and rage gain by defender = R*A/X, where R is a fixed amount of rage to be distributed per turn.

- giv defense some meaning, like seriously, a str user doin 200-300 damage free of cost per turn to a f5 user whose health is probably 750 and whose best attack (probably robot) does the same damage but have cooldown (and mostly blockable and being blocked cz of generally lower dex than of str user) that is just completely wrong.

< Message edited by a non varium player -- 4/17/2015 5:01:58 >
Post #: 5
4/17/2015 13:12:40   
Thylek Shran
Member

quote:

str build is not currently op. also they are very easy if you use the katherax bot.

So this is the reason why now nearly everyone does use a strenght build.

Fact is that strenghts builds are totally OPed. Especially when using Bludgeon while wielding an
energy primary, physical gun and having a physical damage core as their opponents then cannot
use a defensive buff effectively and will waste a move and energy points. Only a high Hybrid Armor
, anti strenght cores (Bunny Bot, Kartherax) and Intimidate can counter them. The problem with
Rage remains which benefits strenght builds and low levels way to much. First turn does also not
help much to counter strenght builds.
DF Epic  Post #: 6
4/17/2015 17:16:10   
dfo99
Member
 

 i maintain my position about str builds. i can defeat them using currently f5 build and even without the katherax, learn how to play ed and you also can do it.
Post #: 7
4/17/2015 17:27:04   
The berserker killer
Member

 

 you guys get karth, yeti, massive buffs to F5 and still complain about str builds? and of course devs will change it becausesome are inexperienced to see str isn't a problem.
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 8
4/17/2015 17:39:22   
Mother1
Member

@ TBK

The Katrth bot and yeti's are guess what? Varium only at the moment. While the yeti's are still in the game no free to play player can get them because of this. As for the karthex bot same thing as the yeti minus it being in game.

I would agree with you if these items were in game for free to play from the start, as well and not seasonal rares but this isn't the case.

< Message edited by Mother1 -- 4/17/2015 17:40:13 >
Epic  Post #: 9
4/17/2015 18:02:20   
The Jop
Member

@Ghost God
It's definitely a problem...players can do over 600 damage (ignoring resistances) per turn without using any energy. It's especially bad at higher ranks, where players can get an extra 70 damage and extra 60 defense/resistance. The opponent needs to block or deflect just to have a chance of winning, and the chance of that happening is fairly low.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 10
4/17/2015 18:12:33   
Lord Machaar
Member

^ I have been saying that for a long time, but nothing was done to that.
These builds are the fruit of:
-Hardcore missions.
-Massive promoting for strenght builds.

Devs announced more than once that they wish for making battles last shorter, best solution is promoting for strenght builds. So yeah I stopped talking about this once the devs want fast battles, what can you do.
MQ Epic  Post #: 11
4/17/2015 18:22:37   
The berserker killer
Member

 

 Okie then. Guess everyone forgot:

1) most battles end in 6 turns
2) Yeti protects you for2
3) Karth nerfs for 3
4) focus 5s are tanks
5) both bots are coming back for creds
6) f5 builds still average 600 dmg per turn b/t aux, bot,and special skill, only theyre impenetrable.
.....buttttttt whatever floats your boat.
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 12
4/17/2015 19:19:59   
Lord Machaar
Member

quote:

6) f5 builds still average 600 dmg per turn b/t aux, bot,and special skill, only theyre impenetrable.


Not all f5 builds deal 600 damage every turn, even at rank 60, it is hard, due to ranks compensation for low defense and resistance in strenght builds, which means a strenght build player can pull off a strenght build with 600 primary damage, but still maintain a good defense / resistance, this was never the case in any other phase.
Only the bot damage which is capable of doing high damage, damage dealt each 3 turns, strenght build players deal that damage each turn.
MQ Epic  Post #: 13
4/17/2015 19:53:45   
The Jop
Member

Mother1 already made the point that only some players have Kartherax and Cyber Yeti, and they had to pay real money for them. I don't know what kind of focus 5 builds can do 600 damage per turn. The only things I have that can do over 600 damage are bludgeon and plasma cannon. Once I have no energy, the strongest thing I have is my bot, which does less damage than the primary of strength abuse builds and has a cooldown of 3. And many strength builds can steal energy as well, stopping other players from using the only things that can compete with the raw damage of their regular weapons.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 14
4/19/2015 21:52:46   
Thylek Shran
Member

Kartherax and Bunny Bot only do help versus some strenght builds as they can be countered easy
by using skills, cores, gun, aux and robot. Especially Bunny Bot is very weak as it only includes Strike.

So all you guys that think that strenght is not overpowered, tell me how you want to beat this build.
Even tanks will loose in 3-4 turns.
DF Epic  Post #: 15
4/19/2015 22:03:21   
RageSoul
Member

^So it's like the "Level 36 stat spike" but worse ! Yep , definitely not worth fighting against .

Perhaps the solution would be to add a "Stamina System" where continuous uses of Strike deplete Stamina and in turn reduces calculated damage the lower the stamina is .
AQW Epic  Post #: 16
4/20/2015 8:26:17   
Lord Machaar
Member

Well Thylek, just don't waste your time my friend. This build showed up hours after hardcore missions, me and many players stated more than once, 95% of players are using strenght builds, and here is the thing, they wouldn't be using it if it didn't give a high winning ratio, the fact that strenght builds of omega combine:
Fast kills + high winning ratio due to high def/resis, and the build you shared thylek, frankly has a lot of def and resis compared to how much stat points were invested in strenght, but we can't see the flaws of these builds, def and resis thanks to the cover up of ranks.
This combo of fast kills and high winning ratio makes any other build useless.

The reason why these builds can't be used properly from rank 1 - 20, because the flaws of these builds are clear, you need atleast 30 ranks to cover up the lack of defense and resistance due to the massive amount of stat points invested in str.

I have been saying this for the last 3 weeks, I won't bring the biobeasts card, but anyways, hoping that the 8th of may patchnote solve this and many other things.

< Message edited by Lord Machaar -- 4/20/2015 8:30:21 >
MQ Epic  Post #: 17
4/20/2015 8:38:15   
Thylek Shran
Member

I forgot to say that the best and maybe only way to beat such builds without much luck
is to copy the build as its not possible to make a counterbuild without having alot weakness
to other builds. Then the luck of the first turn decides who will win mostly and the average
win rate will be 50%.
DF Epic  Post #: 18
4/20/2015 9:53:48   
Mother1
Member

Seen that build and surprisingly when I play and sometimes I beat it sometimes I don't depending on who is using it, and RNG.
Epic  Post #: 19
4/20/2015 11:25:17   
Lord Machaar
Member

Ranks as I meantioned before is also a factor, low rankers who use this build aren't that easy to kill, but atleast you have a chance since their defense and resistance is pretty low. More ranks, meaning more legendary points to cover this weakness, and also giving more free stat points to use on Str/HP, which give builds with ridiculously high hp and high strenght, without sacrificing with defense and resistance. Normally, if a strenght build user can cause you 25 % - 30% damage just by a melee attack, this MUST come with consequence, if for example a 5 focus player has 850 HP, and a strenght build player can do a damage equal to 250, that's more than 30% damage of base hp, they can basically finish you up within 4 turns, that's if they don't use skills that are improved with strenght, for example, bludgeon, that ignores 50% of the opponent's defense meaning a damage equal to 400, that's 50% of your hp in one attack for god sake, for 300 energy, meaning they can use it 2 times in that battle without wasting a single stat point on energy. Till here, all good, these are strenght builds, they do high damage, that's given, but what is abnormal, is when these builds have high HP (1200 - 1500) and on top of that relatively high defense and resistance, meaning that the opponent will need atleast 6 turns to defeat this build using base attacks.

I would say that rank 1 - 20 strenght build users are fairly balanced, but sadly when the fix comes, it nerfs strenght builds from rank 1 to 60, this was the mistake for so long.
I hope by the 8th of may patchnote, ranks will be fixed instead of fixing builds, and then only I think we will see proper balance.

< Message edited by Lord Machaar -- 4/20/2015 11:33:26 >
MQ Epic  Post #: 20
4/21/2015 0:57:36   
a non varium player
Member
 

 I posted some of these points before in my "mark of blood" post. Sadly nothing happened. Give it a read if u like.
Post #: 21
4/21/2015 10:24:58   
Lord Machaar
Member

Anyways just to clear my idea out, here is a strenght build at rank 1, and same strenght build at a higher rank.
the build given by thylek: http://fs1.directupload.net/images/150420/rxxhuq8z.png
same build at higher rank: http://puu.sh/hlJFL/ffc7b5f54b.png

The difference is pretty clear, weaknesses that any strenght build should have (low defense and resistance) is pretty clear at low ranks, all these weaknesses get covered up with ranks, not just that, but ranks allow you to save up stat points to use on strenght and defense. Especially in defense (Dex) which makes strike spammable.

Here is another example: http://puu.sh/hlJKS/8e9a5bd29e.jpg , the difference is clear between strenght builds at rank 1 and strenght builds at rank 30. But once again, devs will nerf the build instead of working on ranks.

http://puu.sh/hlLuz/d3929a4ce0.jpg, for god sake this strenght build is spamming strenght stat with resistance pretty much equal to the resistance of a tank player.

You don't need 20k players to tell you that X thing is imbalanced when one player comes with solid arguments and proofs. If that thing is imbalanced and there is a proof why it's imbalanced, then it's imbalanced, and keeping it that way for 1 month isn't nice.

What keeping me chilling around ED is this new mode, I hope this "Underdog mode" is good enough to fix ranks but also problems related to ranks. The irony is the fix is coming a week after the war, so yeah that should be enough to give a good lead to the alignement with more players.


< Message edited by Lord Machaar -- 4/21/2015 10:56:20 >
MQ Epic  Post #: 22
4/21/2015 11:31:04   
King Bling
Member

That pic you showed is of O M I and he is no where overpowered, a simple bm f5 tactic can defeat him
Post #: 23
4/21/2015 12:48:59   
Lord Machaar
Member

That's what I was talking about, BM encounters itself, in either case, you need to be a BM to play the game nowadays, BM strenght builds rule, BM F5 are doing good, BM 5 focus can encounter these builds because they have intimidate, TM and TLM and CH and BH don't.

And OMI without his ranks is nothing frankly, some high rank players can't stand a chance without their ranks.

< Message edited by Lord Machaar -- 4/21/2015 12:51:17 >
MQ Epic  Post #: 24
4/22/2015 6:23:11   
The berserker killer
Member

 

 Lol those builds are what you guys call hard? Man thats embarrassing. Plenty of other builds for other classes win faster than bm, trust me I've got a ton of them, but no one feels like spending credits to find them out. So that's just your fault. Nothing wrong with the class here
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 25
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